MIssing Neon Tetra/Aggressive Blue Rams

I have been having a problem with 2 things: I had more neon tetras but they keep disappearing and the rams are harassing the betta. I'm relatively new to the aquarium hobby, but I did my research when selecting fish and can't figure out why this is happening.

I have a 29 Gallon tank with:
7 Neon Tetras
4 Guppies (2 male 2 female)
3 KuhlI Loaches
2 Bumblebee Platies (1 male 1 female)
2 Blue Rams (1 male 1 female)
2 Sunburst Platies (1 male 1 female)
1 Betta (male)
1 GardnerI Killifish
1 Marbled Hatchet
1 JUVENILE Red Tailed Black Shark (Less than 2 inches, will be relocated when it outgrows this tank)
1 Siamese Algae Eater
1 Swordtail

I understand that my M:F ratios are off for the guppies and platies. My tank is cycled. I have an Aquaclear 70 (300 GPH). I keep it at 79 degrees. I have a sponge over the filter intake and the tank has a lid, so those cannot be causes for the tetras disappearing. Something must be eating them but I don't know what. I haven't seen any aggression other than the rams nipping at the betta's fins and the bettas subsequently flaring at the rams. I have predominantly peaceful community fish with a couple semi-aggressive fish. Some are carnivorous or omnivorous, but I have nothing that is a predatory species towards other fish. This is why I'm confused. I don't understand why a supposedly peaceful, omnivorous fish would be killing and eating my tetras. Which is most likely to be the culprit?

 

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Is what Aqadvisor says about your tank statis which isn't good news

Selected species: []

7 x Neon Tetra (Paracheirodon innesi)
4 x Guppy (Poecilia reticulata)
3 x KuhlI Loach (Pangio kuhlii)
4 x Platy (Xiphophorus maculatus)
2 x Blue Ram (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi)
1 x Betta [Male] (Betta splendens)
1 x GardnerI Killifish (Fundulopanchax gardnerI gardneri)
1 x Hatchet (Gasteropelecus sternicla)
1 x Red Tailed Black Shark (Epalzeorhynchos bicolor)
1 x Siamese Algae Eater (Crossocheilus siamensis)
1 x Swordtail (Xiphophorus hellerii)

Recommendations/Warnings/Suggestions/Notes:

Warning: Red Tailed Black Shark is too aggressive to co-exist with Neon Tetra.
Suggestion: If you want to keep more than 1 Guppy, minimum recommend male to female ratio is 1:2 (M:F). You will be less likely to experience problem if you get even more females.
Warning: Guppy is not recommended to be with Betta [Male] - male betta may attack a male guppy by mistake thinking he is another male betta.
Suggestion: If you want to keep more than 1 Platy, minimum recommend male to female ratio is 1:2 (M:F). You will be less likely to experience problem if you get even more females.
Warning: Platy is not recommended to be with Swordtail due to interbreeding possibilities.
Note: Betta [Male] may jump - lids are recommended. They can become stressful under presence of too many shoaling species. Try to keep under 1 shoal if the tank is small. Individual bettas may exhibit varying degrees of aggression and care should be taken that exceptionally aggressive/territorial fish be separated from a community before any damage may occur.
Warning: Betta [Male] will likely to fin nip Guppy.
Warning: Betta [Male] is not recommended to be with Guppy - further research is highly recommended.
Warning: Betta [Male] is not recommended to be with Blue Ram - further research is highly recommended.
Warning: Betta [Male] is not recommended to be with GardnerI Killifish - further research is highly recommended.
Warning: Betta [Male] is not recommended to be with Hatchet - further research is highly recommended.
Warning: Betta [Male] is not recommended to be with Red Tailed Black Shark - further research is highly recommended.
Warning: Betta [Male] is not recommended to be with Siamese Algae Eater - further research is highly recommended.
Note: Hatchet may jump - lids are recommended.
Warning: Red Tailed Black Shark is too aggressive to co-exist with Hatchet.
Note: Red Tailed Black Shark may jump - lids are recommended.
Warning: Red Tailed Black Shark is not recommended for your tank - it may eventually outgrow your tank space, potentially reaching up to 5 inches.
Warning: Swordtail is not recommended to be with Platy due to interbreeding possibilities.
Warning: At least 5 x KuhlI Loach are recommended in a group.

Warning: At least 5 x GardnerI Killifish are recommended in a group.

Warning: At least 5 x Hatchet are recommended in a group.


Warning: Water temperature requirements are not fully compatible between all selected species.
=> 68 - 82.4F: Neon Tetra
=> 64.4 - 82.4F: Guppy
=> 75.2 - 86F: KuhlI Loach
=> 64.4 - 77F: Platy
=> 78.8 - 86F: Blue Ram
=> 75.2 - 86F: Betta [Male]
=> 71.6 - 77F: GardnerI Killifish
=> 73.4 - 80.6F: Hatchet
=> 71.6 - 78.8F: Red Tailed Black Shark
=> 71.6 - 82.4F: Siamese Algae Eater
=> 64.4 - 80.6F: Swordtail

Recommended water change schedule: 49% per week. (You might want to split this water change schedule to two separate 28% per week)
Your aquarium stocking level is 144%.
Your tank is overstocked. Unless you are an experienced aquarist who can meet the maintenance/biological needs of this aquarium, lower stocking levels are recommended.

 

Selected species: []

7 x Neon Tetra (Paracheirodon innesi)
4 x Guppy (Poecilia reticulata)
4 x Platy (Xiphophorus maculatus)
2 x Blue Ram (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi)

Just these species above have your tank at 85% capacity and would allow you to possibly correct the Male to female Ratio for your livebearers

 

Yes, I understand howworks. With accurate sizes my results are:

"You have plenty of aquarium filtration capacity.

Your aquarium filtration capacity for above selected species is 137%.
Recommended water change schedule: 35% per week.
Your aquarium stocking level is 111%"



I will be removing the RTBS in the near future. My question is not about my stock, but about what's happening in my tank. If the fish selection is causing the behavior, please explain why.

 

Welcome to Fishlore!

Unfortunately, you probably aren't going to like all the advice you are about to receive. For that you have my apologies - however, we aren't here to hold your hand, we are here to ensure the highest quality of life for your aquatic friends.

While Aquadvisor is generally rather inaccurate, a lot of the points it has just brought up are valid -

Bettas should not be kept in community tanks.

Red Tail Sharks are extremely aggressive and shouldn't be kept with anything smaller than themselves. This will probably explain your missing Tetra.

Tetra need to be in groups of 6 or more - they are schooling fish. The same goes for your Loaches.

As mentioned, there are a lot of temperature differences in the requirements of your stocking list.

You have far too many fish in your tank, as Aquadvisor mentioned (i'm honestly quite impressed with it, it's done well this time!).

I suggest you rehome your Red Tail and your Betta for starters. They are your biggest threat and concern. From there, I would recommend removing the Platy's, and possibly the Guppies - but that is a bridge we can cross when we get there.

One other very important thing - is your tank cycled? Are you aware of the Nitrogen Cycle?

Any questions, don't hesitate to ask

EDIT: I skipped over seeing the CAE. This will get FAR too big for your tank. I suggest you rehome him as soon as you can. It's bad practice keeping fish you know will outgrow your tank at somepoint. It's hard to know when exactly they have "outgrown" it, and as always, life will get in the way.

 

are those with the size of fish you have now (meaning they haven't finished growing) cause the Siamese algae eater can get up to 6 inches long, the swordtail, 4 inches, when looking at stocking a tank you need to look at adult size not the size they are in store, but that aside with your missing neons considering the Big warning about Red Tailed Sharks and Neons I believe that is you culprit.



a lot of those fish are still juvinals so what is 111% stocking now with drastically change when they reach their grown size

Siamese Alge Eaters 6inches
Swordtail 4inches
KullI Loach 4inches
German Blue Ram 2.5 inches

 

My question is not about my stock, but about what's happening in my tank.

The answer to your question about what is happening in your tank is in your stock. That tetra got eaten by something and I think we can all agree that it wasn't the heater or decoration.

 

thank you. It sounds like it is most likely the RTBS that is being aggressive with the Tetras, even though I've never seen it. Or perhaps the fact that it's overstocked is causing the Tetras to die from stress. Then their bodies have been eaten by the other fish.

thank you. As you said, "It's bad practice keeping fish you know will outgrow your tank at somepoint. It's hard to know when exactly they have "outgrown" it, and as always, life will get in the way."I figured it would be okay to keep them in a smaller tank during their juvenile stages and rehome them later, but it seems like that is not the correct method of fish keeping. I will be finding a new home for the RTBS, Betta, and Loaches. Luckily my LFS will take indefinite returns (albeit with no monetary compensation).

 

That is truly great to hear

A lot of our new members come on here with existing issues they were perhaps not aware of in their aquariums. As soon as anyone tries to help them they immediately go on the defensive and don't accept any advice - proclaiming their tanks are perfect - maybe at the expense of the lives in their care. It certainly speaks volumes about you as an aquarist and a person that you are actively willing to take this advice on board.

 

, I understand that. I meant that I didn't need copy and pasted portion of AqAdvisor, I'm familiar with it. As you'll see, I followed that sentence with:

If the fish selection is causing the behavior, please explain why.

I wanted information on which fish to remove in order to stop the problem, not seemingly nonsensical "stock percentages." I'm sureis a useful tool to some degree but I've taken enough economics classes to know how wildly inaccurate it must be simply from a statistical perspective. Not all variables are exactly quantifiable, especially in a situation such as this, which yields a high level of statistical uncertainty. I'd rather hear some real world experience on the matter than vague speculation.

 

Indeed. Like I mentioned, we tend to discount aquadvisor as being inaccurate, along with the "inch per gallon" rule. This time however, it seemed to actually hit the nail somewhat accurately...guess there's a first time for everything eh?

But plenty of us do indeed have that experience.

 

Like John Locke said, "no man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." I recognize that many members here have had lengthy, fruitful careers as aquarists and have far more knowledge on the subject than I do. I have found many contradictions regarding certain aspects of fish keeping and figured I would ask directly as opposed to trying to find an answer in the myriad of forums out there. It is difficult to find articles and posts with validity or credibility. It seems as though the consensus stands against LFS due to their tendency to have sales prioritized over proper fish care.

I'm still confused about the Blue Rams and Betta issue. I will be removing the Betta, but I still haven't found much precedence for the Rams' behavior. They are most frequently described as peaceful. Many people have kept the species together successfully and if an issue arises, it is typically due to the Betta not the Rams.

 

Well put - time certainly does not equal knowledge. There is a of a lot of snake oil in this hobby - a lot of people who don't undertake proper research, or simply don't possess the common sense in the first place. But a lot of us do our research, and take the time to get to know the hobby. You're certainly correct in that LFS are generally not trustworthy owing to the need of sales. If you find a good one - stick with it.

A GBR pair is generally quite peaceful. The aggression arises when spawning begins to occur - they will get EXTREMELY defensive during this period. Add an aggressive pair of spawning Rams, and a fish bred over generations to fight other fish, and I need not say what you'll end up with.

 

I got them about a week ago, could they be spawning already? Or could I have just gotten a pair of aggressive rams?

 

I'm still confused about the Blue Rams and Betta issue. I will be removing the Betta, but I still haven't found much precedence for the Rams' behavior. They are most frequently described as peaceful. Many people have kept the species together successfully and if an issue arises, it is typically due to the Betta not the Rams.

Compatability rules are general and conservative in nature but each individual fish within a species can have it's own personality.

Go with what your eyes tell you.

 

They could indeed, sometimes even sooner! Or as you say, they could just be aggressive. My Electric Blue female is quite bossy, whereas the German Blue I had up until earlier today was really mellow. As Mtn said, different fish do have different personalities.

 

Okay that makes sense. I guess there's not a guaranteed system of determining how successful certain tank mates will be outside of observation.

 

, I returned/rehomed the 3 kuhlI loaches, Betta, swordtail, and RTBS. This dramatically dropped the level of stock and the amount of incompatibility issues.