Mirror In Every Tank? Myth?

Yea no opinion matters now lol. It is a fact there is a mirror in there. I was wrong.

I'm just teasing you

 

Light inside glass with dark outside=reflection. You can see it in your own windows at night. I don't think the water makes a huge difference in that regard, but light and water do mix interestingly, so I might very well be wrong.

I have one betta who flares at his reflection and one that couldn't care less. Whenever I'm wearing a black top when I feed them, the agro one flares like crazy because it makes his reflection so much easier to see. I keep telling him I don't take fashion advice from drama queens who nip at their own fins, but he gives his opinion every time anyway.

 

First I want to say I really did not understand how a fish could see it reflection as many say.I still don't completely get it since my fish next each other definitely see each other but here you go .I can't find the link [yet] that discusses I believe the refraction of glass and light along with thickness of glass and even the curve.Found it !

I have this on how a fishes own reflection is more fearful for them then a real confrontation; https://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/may/fish-facing-mirror-051710.html
Some company actually performed astudy on cylinder tanks and 'proved ' they cause more stress to the fish !
They see something but where in the glass and what shape or size I am not sure ..

 

The same reasoning can be use when asking how a fish knows what color it is.

Why does a black fish prefer to breed with black and mostly black fish?

How do they know this color and that they prefer it over other colors?

The only way they could seemingly know what color they are, is if they see their reflection. But then you must ask, do they know it's them?
Some dogs attack their reflection in a way seeming that they think it is another animal rather than themselves, yet somehow they still sorta know that it is them, and that they're a specific color.

 

Would a bowed front tank cause more reflection?

 

The same reasoning can be use when asking how a fish knows what color it is.

Why does a black fish prefer to breed with black and mostly black fish?

How do they know this color and that they prefer it over other colors?

The only way they could seemingly know what color they are, is if they see their reflection. But then you must ask, do they know it's them?
Some dogs attack their reflection in a way seeming that they think it is another animal rather than themselves, yet somehow they still sorta know that it is them, and that they're a specific color.

There is a fascinating test called 'The Mirror Test' that can be used to see how self aware and animal is. Some species can tell they're looking at themselves when they see their reflection, but most can't. It's not a perfect test for many reasons, especially since many animals don't have eyes that work in a way that they can focus on a reflection, but It's still very interesting when an animal clearly passes or doesn't pass. I don't think there is anything we tend to keep in aquariums that passes the mirror test unless you have a tank large enough for a dolphin! I'm afraid it's a lot more likely a fish chooses it's mate and who to school with based on instinct honed over millenniums of evolution, not self awareness.

But google 'Mirror test' sometime, it'll bring up great videos of animials like dolphins, great apes and corvids being adorably clever and self aware. Also human babies, since the ability to recognize our own reflections is part of a child's mental development!

Would a bowed front tank cause more reflection?

I don't think it causes more reflection so much as a warped reflection, like a fun-house mirror.

 

Would a bowed front tank cause more reflection?

Great question. Were waiting on an internal picture from 1.

 

Great question. Were waiting on an internal picture from 1.

I have the Fluval Flex 15 he isn’t in it yet

 

I have the Fluval Flex 15 he isn’t in it yet

sorry thought I was on another thread. Lol

Is that a bow front?

 

sorry thought I was on another thread. Lol

Is that a bow front?

Lol yes I float all the time

 

There is a fascinating test called 'The Mirror Test' that can be used to see how self aware and animal is. Some species can tell they're looking at themselves when they see their reflection, but most can't. It's not a perfect test for many reasons, especially since many animals don't have eyes that work in a way that they can focus on a reflection, but It's still very interesting when an animal clearly passes or doesn't pass. I don't think there is anything we tend to keep in aquariums that passes the mirror test unless you have a tank large enough for a dolphin! I'm afraid it's a lot more likely a fish chooses it's mate and who to school with based on instinct honed over millenniums of evolution, not self awareness.

But google 'Mirror test' sometime, it'll bring up great videos of animials like dolphins, great apes and corvids being adorably clever and self aware. Also human babies, since the ability to recognize our own reflections is part of a child's mental development!



I don't think it causes more reflection so much as a warped reflection, like a fun-house mirror.

The salwater cleaner wrasse just recently passed the mirror test. Great read in this article.....

 

The reason why I was saying a prism effect was if you look at a 90 degree prism it is intended to direct light that hits the prism walls at a 90 degree angle. One surface appears to be reflective while the other two are transparent. That way we can bend the light waves or 90 degrees. Now if we add 2 of these prisms into a device we can bend the a full 180 degrees. the military has used similar methods for hundreds of years with mirrors and prisms. The old Catseye Night vision goggles had a pair of prisms in each tube to direct the light source gathered in the objective lens down to the users eyes.

The salwater cleaner wrasse just recently passed the mirror test. Great read in this article.....

Now I have saltwater fish smarter then I am.

 

The reason why I was saying a prism effect was if you look at a 90 degree prism it is intended to direct light that hits the prism walls at a 90 degree angle. One surface appears to be reflective while the other two are transparent. That way we can bend the light waves or 90 degrees. Now if we add 2 of these prisms into a device we can bend the a full 180 degrees. the military has used similar methods for hundreds of years with mirrors and prisms. The old Catseye Night vision goggles had a pair of prisms in each tube to direct the light source gathered in the objective lens down to the users eyes.

Well said again. I agree with you. The prism affect is a very good way to describe it.

 

Well said again. I agree with you. The prism affect is a very good way to describe it.

I did learn something in the Navy after all, other then to make people think they are drowning.

 

The same reasoning can be use when asking how a fish knows what color it is.

Why does a black fish prefer to breed with black and mostly black fish?

How do they know this color and that they prefer it over other colors?

The only way they could seemingly know what color they are, is if they see their reflection. But then you must ask, do they know it's them?
Some dogs attack their reflection in a way seeming that they think it is another animal rather than themselves, yet somehow they still sorta know that it is them, and that they're a specific color.

Fish associate by smell. They smell themselves and associate with those that smell like them. They can't see themselves in the wild but they do know what they smell like. Each fish has its own unique smell but fish within a type will share a scent. It's not about appearances.

 

Fish associate by smell. They smell themselves and associate with those that smell like them. They can't see themselves in the wild but they do know what they smell like. Each fish has its own unique smell but fish within a type will share a scent. It's not about appearances.

Agree smell is important, and they don't see themselves in the wild. However appearance is important in many species for many different reasons.
A study was done on wild angel fish. What it showed is that given a choice the female will almost always chose the larger male to mate with.

Appearance is also important with territorial fish. The larger 1 usually will have the best territory.

 

Agree smell is important, and they don't see themselves in the wild. However appearance is important in many species for many different reasons.
A study was done on wild angel fish. What it showed is that given a choice the female will almost always chose the larger male to mate with.

Appearance is also important with territorial fish. The larger 1 usually will have the best territory.

Yeah, fish are visual as well. It's hard to generalize because there are so many species and so many approaches to "solving" the demand to reproduce. And at the end of the day every other fish behavior is geared towards that one goal, reproduction. Whether it is schooling to provide safety in numbers increasing the chance of survival to reproduce or camouflage coloration to increase the odds of survival to reproduce or the development of some specialized teeth for the specific environment to eat more to survive to reproduce...lol, well, you get the idea. Some fish use smell to pick their mate, they can sense which potential mate will provide the better or more diverse genetics. Kinda like histocompatibility - why the human body can tell when tissue doesn't belong and rejects it. Fish are able to sense thru smell the "health" of other fishes and thus their suitability for mating. I can guarantee you though that they do NOT pick a mate that looks like them because it looks like them. It might look that way to us humans but there's a genetic driver - not a mirror - making that call.

 

So you're saying a fish with different colors smells different?

My platies and mollies are very appearance specific and only associate with others of the same or similar colors, even if they're the same kind of fish, or from the same store/tank or same parent fish.

I've gotten fry from people from.the same parents with different colors, and yet those fry only stay and mate with those of the same color.

If they came from the same parent I can't imagine their smell is turning them off from mating.

 

For me it depends on lighting in the room. If the room is dark then they can see their reflection. As soon as I turn on the lights they all stop surfing the glass and flaring

 

For me it depends on lighting in the room. If the room is dark then they can see their reflection. As soon as I turn on the lights they all stop surfing the glass and flaring

Room lighting has to affect is in some way. I have a large enough tank that I could fit in there. Next time I pull all the fish out to do a substrate change, I'm grabbing the diving mask and going in. I wanna see this with own eyes. I wish there was a way to eliminate the mirror. It's really not good for many many fish.

 

I'm thinking at certain angles it's the prism effect.

Like in "Caged Heat"? No, never mind, that was the prison effect.

So you're saying a fish with different colors smells different?

My platies and mollies are very appearance specific and only associate with others of the same or similar colors, even if they're the same kind of fish, or from the same store/tank or same parent fish.

I've gotten fry from people from.the same parents with different colors, and yet those fry only stay and mate with those of the same color.

If they came from the same parent I can't imagine their smell is turning them off from mating.

Observation would suggest "yes". Fish don't know what they look like. For one, they can't see themselves and 2) Even if they were to see a reflection they have no sense of self. They're not evolved enough.
Humans can stick out their arm or leg and see their own skin. Our brains are developed enough that we have a sense of self after a certain age.
If a fish is yellow that is a result of chemicals/genetics within that fish being expressed. Histocompatibility tells us that cells "recognize" like cells. I think this could certainly thru evolution be extended to sensory cells such as those used in "smelling" in fish.
It's also possible that fish are genetically designed to imprint on the shapes and colors that they are in contact with as fry. I don't know how long that would persist though. Interesting topic but probably better suited for a new thread.

 

The problem is that fish and people see differently. They don’t even see the colors like we do.

 

The problem is that fish and people see differently. They don’t even see the colors like we do.

That's what I was thinking when catching up on this. Even if we see a mirror, they may not. Or if we don't, maybe they do. I feel like our eyes are so different when looking that you can't even really compare.

 

Room lighting has to affect is in some way. I have a large enough tank that I could fit in there. Next time I pull all the fish out to do a substrate change, I'm grabbing the diving mask and going in. I wanna see this with own eyes. I wish there was a way to eliminate the mirror. It's really not good for many many fish.

I combatted it with a 3d background and room lighting.

 

So, while I was doing a fishless cycle I was curious about this very thing so I took a video:

Thee Lady G on Instagram: “A Fish Eye View! I decided to see just exactly what the view really is from the inside of my fish tank. I wanted to know what my fish will…”

So, as you can see, the only reflection I have inside the tank is from the background where I hung a piece of black cloth against the glass. The rest of the tank is like a huge bay window into my room.

I took the cloth down to clean some water stains off of it, and just left it off. I actually like it better, because it feels like the fish are in the room with me, which they seem to like. I think that Sunny would follow me around the house like a puppy if she could.

I also read that goldfish have polarized vision, that lets them see clearly through the water surface to see predators and prey. It is likely that most fish that hunt or hang around at the surface have this same ability.

 

That's what I was thinking when catching up on this. Even if we see a mirror, they may not. Or if we don't, maybe they do. I feel like our eyes are so different when looking that you can't even really compare.

From what I’ve read years ago, fishes’ eyes are a lot less “sophisticated” than out own.

 

So, while I was doing a fishless cycle I was curious about this very thing so I took a video:

Thee Lady G on Instagram: “A Fish Eye View! I decided to see just exactly what the view really is from the inside of my fish tank. I wanted to know what my fish will…”

So, as you can see, the only reflection I have inside the tank is from the background where I hung a piece of black cloth against the glass. The rest of the tank is like a huge bay window into my room.

I took the cloth down to clean some water stains off of it, and just left it off. I actually like it better, because it feels like the fish are in the room with me, which they seem to like. I think that Sunny would follow me around the house like a puppy if she could.

Thank you very much. Was there any room lighting and if so how bright.

 

This has more to do with my color thing, but also how they perceive light in general, and it's an interesting read.

I'm not sure how well everyone else will like this source, but it makes sense.



There was one place where it stated that it has been observed, but needs more experimentation, but some fish happen to favor a specific color, and, they can generally see us pretty clearly, which goes back to the cylinder tank, and how harmful it could be to them.

Imagine if you had to look at the world through warped goggles, on mole day we did this in chemistry by wearing mole glasses, they were warped mirrors with different colors, and we played a game where we had to hit certain shapes on a wall, this was very difficult.
Not that a fish has to hit walls, but regardless, I would find it difficult living in a world where my once normal vision was constantly warped by the outside world.
That would also affect color perception as when we look at ourselves in fun mirrors, some things blur together into other colors.

My fish react to the purple bag of food, no, not just my presence, but the actual bag.

I tested this by always coming up to my tanks anyway, and my fish don't have a strict feeding schedule.
So when I come up, they say hi, but aren't excitedly swimming back and forth or towards the surface, but when they see the bag appear, they folow it, they jump, they splash, they basically beg like a dog for a treat.
If I do this with my blue bag, they aren't quite as excited, but it's still there, and they really don't care for the orange bag.
Unsure if they relate the colors with the food, I assume it's possible, but it's possible they just like the colors too.

 

Thank you very much. Was there any room lighting and if so how bright.

My tank faces a large picture window that's across the room, and there is a row of track lights to the right. During the day it's fairly bright, much dimmer in the evening. I generally put a cloth over the tank if we're up doing things late (we're night owls and their light timer goes off at 9:30).

I want to take a better video, I think it would be fun with the fish in there!

 

I don't know if anyone wants to migrate some of the discussion to another thread or not (have to watch out for the thread police don't ya know) but I've created a separate topic on fish and self awareness.

Are Fish Self Aware?

It's up to Dave125g .

 

My tank faces a large picture window that's across the room, and there is a row of track lights to the right. During the day it's fairly bright, much dimmer in the evening. I generally put a cloth over the tank if we're up doing things late (we're night owls and their light timer goes off at 9:30).

I want to take a better video, I think it would be fun with the fish in there!

So as I suspected with ambient room lighting as bright or brighter then the tank= no mirror. Can you possibly take another video with the room as dark as you can get it? For comparison.

I don't know if anyone wants to migrate some of the discussion to another thread or not (have to watch out for the thread police don't ya know) but I've created a separate topic on fish and self awareness.

Are Fish Self Aware?

It's up to Dave125g .

Yes that's correct it is a different topic. A very interesting one at that. The mods will most likely move those posts to the new thread.

 

So as I suspected with ambient room lighting as bright or brighter then the tank= no mirror. Can you possibly take another video with the room as dark as you can get it? For comparison. Yes that's correct it is a different topic. A very interesting one at that. The mods will most likely move those posts to the new thread.

You know, you can probably do the exact thing I did. All I did was put my phone in a sandwich bag and stick the camera end in the water, haha... very high tech . Then you can get an idea of your individual situation. My camera is awful in low light so I may not get a lot of info.

 

You know, you can probably do the exact thing I did. All I did was put my phone in a sandwich bag and stick the camera end in the water, haha... very high tech . Then you can get an idea of your individual situation. My camera is awful in low light so I may not get a lot of info.

Great idea. I'm gonna try that. Thanks.

These pictures are from the inside of the tank. The first 1 is with the room quite dark only a little light from the kitchen on. The 2nd picture is pointed at the corner of the tank with the room as dark as I could get the whole downstairs. As you can see there is a slight mirroring affect. It appears the mirror is directly related to ambient room lighting. If we want the mirror gone we will need to have the room brightly lit. Depending on the lights in the room it may cause excessive algae.

 

I bet its not only the level of brightness of the light in the room. I am thinking it is also affected by the angle of the light. Like, afternoon sun hitting the tank from one side for instance. Or a lamp on one end of the tank and not the other.

 

I bet its not only the level of brightness of the light in the room. I am thinking it is also affected by the angle of the light. Like, afternoon sun hitting the tank from one side for instance. Or a lamp on one end of the tank and not the other.

Yes. I would think, like the photo evidence shows, 1 part of the tank with no light hitting it has a very clear mirror, and with only a little bit of indirect light shows some mirror. I would think with sunlight hitting the tank there would be no mirror at all. As shown by the video posted above.

What we need to ask ourselves is, are our fish stressed out by the mirror, of course it's different for each species. If so we should work to remove it. If there not then there's no need to correct it. The other thing is are we gonna get excesive algae? If we use sunlight then probably. If we just use soft white bulbs we should be fine. Are these corrections worth it? We have to take electricity cost and other factors into account.

In short it's more complex then I realized. Lol

 

I have to mention that, like people, all fish do not have equal eyesight. Some fish will see farther and better than other fish of the same species.

While we are waiting for Dave's trick with the sandwich bag, I'm going to comment that I do have a 16 bow front. Here's a photo I took a couple months back.




I have also had fish in jugs and bottles. It does not appear to be a problem for the fish. In fact little Betta Boy loves to swim up inside this bottle and sleep above his tank.



There is a classic problem in physics 101 about a fish and a fisherman and it regards the index of refraction of various transparent materials. "How close can a 6ft tall fisherman get to the edge of the water before a fish two feet down and three feet away from the edge can see him?"

Now this is a very complicated problem, but in physics 101 they reduce it down to some simple trigonometric equations and the differing Factor of refractive indices, of pure air and pure water.

Air, water, glass Etc all bend light different amounts. Add some dust or silt or something and it changes even more.

Photons react differently when they pass through different materials. Because photons come in all different colors, or wavelengths as we say, each color reacts differently for two different materials. This is why prisms can bend light and expose its many colors.

The air, the glas, the water, the fish's eye's lens, and the rest of its eye are all factors in the equation of how far any particular color of light bends.

Now here's the really interesting thing that if you read all the way down to here you get to find out.

That problem about can the fish see the fisherman changes rapidly when things start to move.

If you see something moving in a linear fashion it appears to move uniformly.

But light moving through materials are glass and water and fish eye which are all moving relative to each other, can sweep dramatically in a non-linear fashion.

This is how you can take a search light and make it pretend to be a UFO suddenly streaking across the heavens from rest. It appears to accelerate at incredible speeds, but all you did was wiggle a light on the ground.

Now imagine that you run that light through refractive materials that move. You can achieve that same impossibly rapid sweeping effect without moving the light.

With this all in mind things can appear suddenly to fish and disappear just as suddenly, including Reflections from oblique surfaces.

When you look square on to all the materials involved, the index of refraction of them has approximately no effect. As soon as you get off axis a little bit, things can appear to bend, distort , or dart rapidly.

 

Yes. I would think, like the photo evidence shows, 1 part of the tank with no light hitting it has a very clear mirror, and with only a little bit of indirect light shows some mirror. I would thing with sunlight hitting the tank there would be no mirror at all. As shown by the video posted above.

What we need to ask ourselves is, are our fish stressed out by the mirror, of course it's different for each species. If so we should work to remove it. If there not then there's no need to correct it. The other thing is are we gonna get excesive algae? If we use sunlight then probably. If we just use soft white bulbs we should be fine. Are these corrections worth it? We have to take electricity cost and other factors into account.

In short it's more complex then I relied. Lol

I am going to guess they ARE stressed by it. I think my angels are very stressed when they think there are other angels right next to their eggs. And bettas are quite possibly flaring at a reflection of some kind. And I wouldn't be surprised if glass surfing also has something to do with the seeing themselves going up and down the sides all fast and stuff. Or only seeing themselves at certain angels, so they are surfing the glass like crazy trying to see what they thought they saw when they were at a different angle. haha

 

I wonder how the presence of a mirroring effect or lack of effects fish behavior in general. When it gets dark and I have lights off around my tank with tank lights still on all my fish always seem more active and bold. As if they have a higher sense of security.

 

I don't think reflections affect them as much as motion.

Their eyes make things look distorted so they have better sight of things coming at them obliquely.

Things coming at a fish appear to "dart" into view, because they have (to differing extents) "fisheye" vision.

 

I am going to guess they ARE stressed by it. I think my angels are very stressed when they think there are other angels right next to their eggs. And bettas are quite possibly flaring at a reflection of some kind. And I wouldn't be surprised if glass surfing also has something to do with the seeing themselves going up and down the sides all fast and stuff. Or only seeing themselves at certain angels, so they are surfing the glass like crazy trying to see what they thought they saw when they were at a different angle. haha

I think some fish are definitely frightened by there reflection. As the link a few pages back says. I also think some (schooling) fish may even be comforted by it. I also think that since most tanks are so bright there's no need for room lights to be on. Therefore most tanks have a well defined mirror in them.

I wonder how the presence of a mirroring effect or lack of effects fish behavior in general. When it gets dark and I have lights off around my tank with tank lights still on all my fish always seem more active and bold. As if they have a higher sense of security.

With the tank lights off there's almost no mirror, as the room is almost always brighter then the tank. When fish are calm and not moving much it indicates no stress, more often then not. By contrast when fish are flying around the tank that could indicate stress.

Here's another question. Aquarium raised fish.... Do they get use to the mirror? As opposed to wild caught fish who have never seen it.