Mature Tank - Fish Dying Everyday - Need Help!

Hello Everybody--

So in the last 3 days I've lost some of my most prized fish, some that I've had for years. This is a total shock/mystery so I am looking for help
45 Gallon Freshwater Tank
HAD-- 6 Tiger Barbs
3 Cory Cats
1 Spotted Placo (MY FAVORITE)
1 Swordtail
1 Panda Gara
2 Gold Ram Ciclids
Water Temp: Heated to 80 degrees F
3 Live Plants & Sand Bottom and driftwood
PH came in at 6.5 - 7
0 Ammonia
0 Nitrite
Always high Nitrate despite water changes every 2-3 weeks & Plants

Heres the story: I did a water change about a week ago and then the next day picked up 2 new Gold Ram (thought they were mates so couldnt say no)

From that moment forward: my tank heater is keeping the tank 82 degrees, 1 Gold Ram dies, 1 large and older tiger barb dies, and then..today my Gold Spotted Pleco of 3 years is dead.

Back story: as of recent my Pleco has come out from hiding in his house pretty much 24/7 to hanging onto the outflow from my Fluval filter to get the water flow. I was confused but assumed he just liked it. Well i was wrong and he died.

My best guess is the heater is malfunctioning and brought the tank from 79-80 degrees to above 82s for days now. My assumption is that oxygen has become scarce despite the bubbler and filter and plants. I am thinking the Pleco was actually suffocating from lack of Oxygen and the past few weeks he's been out of his home (i thought it was cool to see him out) actually searching for oxygen.

I would really like some feedback on the experts out there if maybe something else is going one.

 

When you say always high nitrates, how much is high? Do you have a test reading?

Having only three plants isn’t going to help bring those down either, so why only water changes every 2-3 weeks? I’d be doing 50% every week if nitrates are a problem. Not saying that’s what’s caused the deaths, more an observation.

 

Agreed you need more plants or more water changes to keep the nitrates down. But as the tank was doing Ok for 3 years it’s most suspicious that the deaths occurred after adding the rams, I presume they were not quarantined?

 

When you say always high nitrates, how much is high? Do you have a test reading?

Having only three plants isn’t going to help bring those down either, so why only water changes every 2-3 weeks? I’d be doing 50% every week if nitrates are a problem. Not saying that’s what’s caused the deaths, more an observation.

I simply dont have the time to be changing my fish tanks water every week and 50% water change would destroy my tanks bacteria chemistry. Nitrates come in high between 80 - 160 PPM but has beenn this way since the beginning so I am ruling out high Nitrates

Agreed you need more plants or more water changes to keep the nitrates down. But as the tank was doing Ok for 3 years it’s most suspicious that the deaths occurred after adding the rams, I presume they were not quarantined?

Not quarantined, only have one tank setup. But I no longer trust Petsmart for fish
I should also mention i am in Florida where tap water is very hard and has a lot of Ammonia so i get water from the grocery store using the machine that refills the 5-gallon water jugs

 

Hey Cody91
The nitrogen cycle was only discovered 35 odd years ago. Even some fish keepers don’t want to believe what is now common knowledge and Scientific fact.

We can change 50 of the water every day or indeed multiple times per day without destroying a tanks bacteria chemistry. The bacteria live ON hard surfaces not in the water.

 

I simply dont have the time to be changing my fish tanks water every week and 50% water change would destroy my tanks bacteria chemistry. Nitrates come in high between 80 - 160 PPM but has beenn this way since the beginning so I am ruling out high Nitrates

Not quarantined, only have one tank setup. But I no longer trust Petsmart for fish
I should also mention i am in Florida where tap water is very hard and has a lot of Ammonia so i get water from the grocery store using the machine that refills the 5-gallon water jugs

most of us do weekly water changes. i change out 75-80% of the water every week. the majority of bacteria is in the filter media, not in the water.

high nitrates = old tank syndrome. there's also evidence that high nitrates lead to long term nitrate poisoning. the EPA limit is 40ppm for human consumption, high nitrates is not good for any aquatic animals that live in that waste 24/7/365

weekly water changes are recommended b/c there are also other wastes that we don't test for. such as heavy metals buildup, phosphates, dissolved organic compounds, etc.

it is possible the new unquarantined fish brought in some disease.

fish can slowly adapt to hard water. mix in a small percent of tap water and increase the amount of tap water each week. for the ammonia you can use Zeolite to absorb it. it can be recharge every couple of weeks with salt and reused many times.

 

most of us do weekly water changes. i change out 75-80% of the water every week. the majority of bacteria is in the filter media, not in the water.

high nitrates = old tank syndrome. there's also evidence that high nitrates lead to long term nitrate poisoning. the EPA limit is 40ppm for human consumption, high nitrates is not good for any aquatic animals that live in that waste 24/7/365

weekly water changes are recommended b/c there are also other wastes that we don't test for. such as heavy metals buildup, phosphates, dissolved organic compounds, etc.

it is possible the new unquarantined fish brought in some disease.

fish can slowly adapt to hard water. mix in a small percent of tap water and increase the amount of tap water each week. for the ammonia you can use Zeolite to absorb it. it can be recharge every couple of weeks with salt and reused many times.

The tank itself is definitely old. I bought it from somebody about 4 years ago and it had been used for a decade then. It had high nitrate from the start. I’ll have to look into Zeolite. I failed to mention that this morning one of my fish had what looked like white dust all over. Said fish died later on today. I believe it was velvet disease. So I am currently bringing the temp down to 79-80 again and added aquarium salt (1 tablespoon per 5 gal). It sucks to see all my fish stressed and dying. The rest seem to be swimming spastically from time to time as well. I’m convinced either the warmer temp suffocated the tank or parasites were brought in from PetSmarts **** tanks. All I can do is pray and wait

 

Those nitrates are really high, rams in particular are very susceptible to high nitrates, though I do suspect they may have carried some kind of disease to your tank. The best way to remove nitrates (apart from water changes) is to have some floating plants like water lettuce.

 

Those nitrates are really high, rams in particular are very susceptible to high nitrates, though I do suspect they may have carried some kind of disease to your tank. The best way to remove nitrates (apart from water changes) is to have some floating plants like water lettuce.

I will get some water lettuce this weekend. Thanks for the tip!

 

I would rule out nitrate. While it's high for an aquarium it's far from what's toxic to fish even for continuous exposure.

I wonder if the store bought water has changed. They very likely just filter tap water and if they're not on top of filter changes chloramine (which is much harder to remove via carbon or dechlorinator than chlorine) can easily breakthrough. I'm also curious if it's RO water or just filtered.

 

Yes, the Nitrates would be a problem. Changing water does not affect your bacteria chemistry in any way, as others have mentioned bacteria grows on surfaces with only extreme trace amounts present in the water. You should be doing at least 50% a week and if you don't have time then you'll have to make some sort of plan as this is crucial to the health of your fish. Maybe consider doing two 25% a week so you only spend 20 min or so each time?
Not saying Nitrates is the cause of the tragedy but definitely an issue.

 

I would rule out nitrate. While it's high for an aquarium it's far from what's toxic to fish even for continuous exposure.

I wonder if the store bought water has changed. They very likely just filter tap water and if they're not on top of filter changes chloramine (which is much harder to remove via carbon or dechlorinator than chlorine) can easily breakthrough. I'm also curious if it's RO water or just filtered.

I have been using the Glacier Water Vending Machine for water changes. I believe it’s an RO process but I hadn’t considered it not being maintained
So nobody thinks the water temperature spiking to 82 for an extended period of time did this? Consensus is saying is either disease from new fish, high nitrates or possible bad water from the grocery store? If that’s the case I have put aquarium salt into the tank last night, will do a 25% change this weekend and get some water lettuce. New heater on its way.

Yes, the Nitrates would be a problem. Changing water does not affect your bacteria chemistry in any way, as others have mentioned bacteria grows on surfaces with only extreme trace amounts present in the water. You should be doing at least 50% a week and if you don't have time then you'll have to make some sort of plan as this is crucial to the health of your fish. Maybe consider doing two 25% a week so you only spend 20 min or so each time?
Not saying Nitrates is the cause of the tragedy but definitely an issue.

If it only took 20 min I’d do it way more often. But consider driving to the grocery store. Filling up 2 five gallon jugs, schlepping them home, then I can drain and refill. I usually scrub the aquarium walls to remove algae deposits. If I don’t clean the filter I can get it all done In just over an hour or so

 

The nitrogen cycle was only discovered 35 odd years ago. Even some fish keepers don’t want to believe what is now common knowledge and Scientific fact.

Correction: 1890s with first forays in the direction in the 1840s. The details accepted as common knowledge today where worked out in the 1950s-70s. So... 70 years at least. But I agree, whoever negates the cycle's existence might as well think the Earth is flat.

To me this case here is clear:
A domestic variety of Microgeophagus ramirezi, known for generally bad health and bad genetics, acquired from a questionable source, introduced into an existing tank without quarantine, has likely introduced pathogens formerly unknown to the fish population in the tank, which had no immunity to these pathogens.
I've seen this more times than I can number right now.

So nobody thinks the water temperature spiking to 82 for an extended period of time did this?

Not directly. Besides promoting faster bacteria growth. Oxygen problems only occur at 30°C and above.

If that’s the case I have put aquarium salt into the tank last night

For what? The pathogens that have likely been introduced are bacteria, so salt doesn't do anything in the concentration safe for the fish.

Consensus is saying is either disease from new fish, high nitrates or possible bad water from the grocery store?

I don't agree about the nitrates and the water. The high nitrates may just have contributed but are by no means a direct cause. And the storebought water is most likely mainly a thread to your wallet and nothing else.

 

Correction: 1890s with first forays in the direction in the 1840s. The details accepted as common knowledge today where worked out in the 1950s-70s. So... 70 years at least. But I agree, whoever negates the cycle's existence might as well think the Earth is flat.

To me this case here is clear:
A domestic variety of Microgeophagus ramirezi, known for generally bad health and bad genetics, acquired from a questionable source, introduced into an existing tank without quarantine, has likely introduced pathogens formerly unknown to the fish population in the tank, which had no immunity to these pathogens.
I've seen this more times than I can number right now.


Not directly. Besides promoting faster bacteria growth. Oxygen problems only occur at 30°C and above.

For what? The pathogens that have likely been introduced are bacteria, so salt doesn't do anything in the concentration safe for the fish.

I don't agree about the nitrates and the water. The high nitrates may just have contributed but are by no means a direct cause. And the storebought water is most likely mainly a thread to your wallet and nothing else.

I would love to use tap water but the ammonia levels only add to my nitrate problem so I decided the best alternative to keep a healthy tank is buying better quality water. Regarding quarantine…in a world where we are
Recreational fish tank owners with one tank…the idea of a second tank setup for quarantine is just too much. I would consider a quarantine insert within my tank but that won’t prevent bad bacteria or parasites

 

I would love to use tap water but the ammonia levels only add to my nitrate problem so I decided the best alternative to keep a healthy tank is buying better quality water.

I know. I just said it's not the cause for the fish deaths that you use storebought water. That's all.

Regarding quarantine…in a world where we are recreational fish tank owners with one tank…the idea of a second tank setup for quarantine is just too much.

Transparent plastic vat with or without lid, fittingly sized heater, small internal filter: Together possible to buy for less than 50,- and you only have to leave it set up for the duration of quarantine (2-4 weeks). Afterwards you can use it as storage for tank supply.
Cycled filter media are for free from your main tank's filter.

Your other alternative is buying from reputable sources known to sell healthy fish. This is not cheap, though, I admit. But a very wise investment.

If you can't do either of these, my best advise is to not stock up any more fish, let the ones you have live out their lives and quit the hobby afterwards.

 

I know. I just said it's not the cause for the fish deaths that you use storebought water. That's all.



Transparent plastic vat with or without lid, fittingly sized heater, small internal filter: Together possible to buy for less than 50,- and you only have to leave it set up for the duration of quarantine (2-4 weeks). Afterwards you can use it as storage for tank supply.
Cycled filter media are for free from your main tank's filter.

Your other alternative is buying from reputable sources known to sell healthy fish. This is not cheap, though, I admit. But a very wise investment.

If you can't do either of these, my best advise is to not stock up any more fish, let the ones you have live out their lives and quit the hobby afterwards.

New Data: another fish showing what looks like Velvet Disease around his body. Starting to think I just wasted money getting a new heater and the real cause is a velvet parasite wreaking havoc on my tank from the newly brought in Golden Rams. I have aquarium salt and already put 7 tablespoons in yesterday. Where do we go from here?

 

Sorry about this, yes I am sure the temperature was not to blame. I have no experience treating velvet, but you might need something other than salt. I believe that copper sulphate is used but I am not sure. Maybe look for information online specifically about velvet?

 

Sorry about this, yes I am sure the temperature was not to blame. I have no experience treating velvet, but you might need something other than salt. I believe that copper sulphate is used but I am not sure. Maybe look for information online specifically about velvet?

Hi, yes I will be searching for Coppersafe, but In the meantime I think salt and removing alight exposure from the tank can help. I put 7 table spoons of aquarium salt yesterday but I think that was not nearly enough so looking for comments of how much salt. If the rule is 1 teaspoon per gallon and 3 teaspoons equals 1 table spoon then that’s 1 tablespoon per every 3 gallons. I did 1 table per 5 gallons so I have to workout the numbers

 

Honestly it's most likely a gill parasite they introduced since they died so fast after only 1 week. Also since the fish you already had started dying fast as well.

I'd suggest using Seachem paragaurd (incase it's a smaller gill parasite/ectoparasite) and praziquantel (incase it's gill flukes).
.

 

Honestly it's most likely a gill parasite they introduced since they died so fast after only 1 week. Also since the fish you already had started dying fast as well.

I'd suggest using Seachem paragaurd (incase it's a smaller gill parasite/ectoparasite) and praziquantel (incase it's gill flukes).
.

I actually picked up SeaChem's Cupramine instead as I believe it is Velvet Disease. Unfortunately when i was removing my carbon, I changed the water and conditioned the new water with PRIME....found out soon after that I cannot treat my tank with cupramine within 48 hours of using prime so i have to begin treatment Saturday Night and will FU with results

 

I agree most likely parasitic. If you cannot or will not quarantine highly recommend Seachem Paraguard and Prazi Pro prophylactically for whole tank when introducing new fish. Seachem Cupramine is great for velvet unless you have crustaceans then I’d substitute Paraguard.

I think the high nitrates are an issue over long time and will ultimately effect the lives of your fish, weakening or stressing them. When you say there is ”a lot” of ammonia in your water supply, how much is that? I can’t imagine after converting to nitrates it would come close to 80-160ppm. You can slowly start introducing your own tap water with weekly water changes. Every 2-3 weeks just isn’t enough, especially in a stocked tank. If using your tap would allow you to increase water changes and get your nitrates down, I’d recommend it. Plus it will save you some money and time filling 5g jugs of water from the store.

 

I agree most likely parasitic. If you cannot or will not quarantine highly recommend Seachem Paraguard and Prazi Pro prophylactically for whole tank when introducing new fish. Seachem Cupramine is great for velvet unless you have crustaceans then I’d substitute Paraguard.

I think the high nitrates are an issue over long time and will ultimately effect the lives of your fish, weakening or stressing them. When you say there is ”a lot” of ammonia in your water supply, how much is that? I can’t imagine after converting to nitrates it would come close to 80-160ppm. You can slowly start introducing your own tap water with weekly water changes. Every 2-3 weeks just isn’t enough, especially in a stocked tank. If using your tap would allow you to increase water changes and get your nitrates down, I’d recommend it. Plus it will save you some money and time filling 5g jugs of water from the store.

I measured my tap today and the ammonia comes in between 10-15 ppm

 

Ok, I had to ask this question in another thread but 10parts ammonia convert to 36ppm nitrates so you could slowly switch over to tap and do more frequent water changes. You can also put nitrazorb into your filters. It can be re-charged many times before needing to be replaced.

Also, semi-aquatic plants will consume nitrate readily (like curly bamboo (dracaena), pothos among numerous others. Aquarium submersed plants will consume ammonia so if you add a bunch of plants that will help prevent high nitrates also.

 

I measured my tap today and the ammonia comes in between 10-15 ppm

Are you sure?!

 

Are you sure?!

I am sure.

 

I am sure.

How do you even test ammonia that high? Are you on a well?

 

What test are you using? I’d get the API ammonia test and try the dilution test. 1/2 RO and 1/2 tap in the vial, take the result and multiply x2 to get a more accurate reading of the tap. I’m curious if you first use prime or other water conditioner if the reading will be the same.

If this is city water I think there would be EPA limits to how much chloramines can be used. Chloramines are part chlorine and part ammonia so when a water conditioner is used it should break them apart and render the chlorine non-toxic leaving you with ammonia. 10-15ppm would be extremely high levels of disinfectant in your water source.

 

Monochloramine is 5:1 chlorine:ammonia, too.

 

Monochloramine is 5:1 chlorine:ammonia, too.

My bad on this one. I was actually measuring 0.5 - 1ppm ammonia. I used a zeolite product in the water bucket for a few days and got it down to 0.25 - 0.5ppm which should be doable
Tank update: first dose of Cupramine Saturday morning, second dose Monday morning. Tank lights have been off for about a week and fish starting to seem normal again (the fish that are left). I’m going to put carbon media back in the filter this week and do a water change a day later. Hopefully that’s a wrap regarding the velvet and I can add some fish in the coming weeks (from a reputable fish store)

 

Ok, that makes much more sense! A cycled tank will handle that amount of ammonia no problem, just make sure to use a water conditioner. You can increase water changes then and get your nitrates down overall.

 

Ok, that makes much more sense! A cycled tank will handle that amount of ammonia no problem, just make sure to use a water conditioner. You can increase water changes then and get your nitrates down overall.

How long do you think I should wait to put my carbon filter media back into the filter and do a water change? I dosed my tank with Cupramine first on Saturday and a second dose on Monday. No more signs of velvet disease on the remaining fish as of today, Wednesday.

 

I’d do the recommended dosage and length of time and then you can put the carbon back in. Some of these parasites have eggs or a phase in the substrate and then attach to the fish so you have to treat for 2 weeks but not sure if velvet is like that. Ich is.