Ludwigia Looking Very Sad

midna

so I bought a couple bunches of ludwigia repens from my lfs. they've been planted for 1-2 months (I bought one bunch 2 months ago and a second bunch one month ago) and they've been consistently losing leaves, especially from the bottom of the stems. they're mostly the leaves that look like they're dying, but i've seen some healthier leaves floating at the top of my tank too. i'm sure it's because they aren't receiving enough light, and I knew it was a risk to plant ludwigia in low light. I knew it'd probably lose the red tones, at the very least.

a few weeks ago I ended up cutting off the stems that no longer had any leaves and replanted them. of course, they just started losing leaves again.

should I just toss the ludwigia and try a different plant that'll do okay in low light? maybe I could move the ludwigia to a part of the tank that might receive more light? I have a 5.5 gallon tank, a led light, and I dose 1ml of nilocg thrive+ twice a week (with two ~30-50% water changes a week). I know thrive+ is for high-tech tanks, but I didn't know that when I ordered it, and I just lower the amount I dose to try to make up for it.

(I wanted to try some rotala indica sp. bonsaI eventually but i'm afraid that'll do poorly as well. my bacopa caroliniana and rotala rotundifolia seem to be doing better than my ludwigia, but they still experience some melt of the lower leaves.)


20181119_171122.jpg
20181119_171142.jpg

right after I planted the first bunch:
20181119_171352.jpg
 

wrs2

Mine always ends up looking like that and worse. Some Ludwigia are supposed to be easy lower light plants, but they always lose leaves. I think it could be from not enough light getting down to them, but I can't be 100% sure!
 

EMR

Which light are you using? Is there any new growth at all?
 

Bryangar

I would try to keep them shorter than they are. Start trimming and replanting to get more light to the bottom.

Edit: nvm, it can grow in low tech, low light lol.
 

midna

Mine always ends up looking like that and worse. Some Ludwigia are supposed to be easy lower light plants, but they always lose leaves. I think it could be from not enough light getting down to them, but I can't be 100% sure!

probably. I think I may be planting them too deep into the substrate too.....

Which light are you using? Is there any new growth at all?

it's this one: NICREW ClassicLED Aquarium Light, Fish Tank Light Extendable Brackets, White Blue LEDs, 6W https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0191EWII2/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_Bw08BbCESY92N
7500k I believe. I doubt the par is any good. it appears brighter than my other tank's light, however. I figured it would do okay supporting low-med light plants. I try to leave it on for 6 hours a day to cut down on algae growth, but I don't have a timer so sometimes it goes longer.

there has been some new growth, but nothing significant. I trimmed the tops off a while ago because they grew too tall. some are gathering a lot of diatoms on the tops and even little baby leaves are falling off.


20181119_190226.jpg

20181119_190140.jpg
20181119_190151.jpg

I would try to keep them shorter than they are. Start trimming and replanting to get more light to the bottom.

Edit: nvm, it can grow in low tech, low light lol.

i'll trim them and replant them next to my bacopa in the background. I wanted them tall and clustered to hide my sponge filter. I'll probably just get an amazon sword or something and plant it there, idk. by bonsaI I mean just your typical rotala indica, basically.


I uprooted them and some of their stems that were in the substrate (bdbs) were rotting. some had grown roots. I guess i'm planting them too far into the substrate?? am I only just supposed to cover the roots and that's it? they don't stay in my stupid sand unless I push them way down :/


20181119_190214.jpg

look at these ratty leaves lol
20181119_190316.jpg

i'm pretty unhappy with my setup tbh. my plants look like doodoo. I might do a rescape later and try to add more seiryu stone and very basic low light plants. I also REALLY need to get a background lol


20181119_190348.jpg
 

Bryangar

probably. I think I may be planting them too deep into the substrate too.....



it's this one: NICREW ClassicLED Aquarium Light, Fish Tank Light Extendable Brackets, White Blue LEDs, 6W https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0191EWII2/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_Bw08BbCESY92N
7500k I believe. I doubt the par is any good. it appears brighter than my other tank's light, however. I figured it would do okay supporting low-med light plants. I try to leave it on for 6 hours a day to cut down on algae growth, but I don't have a timer so sometimes it goes longer.

there has been some new growth, but nothing significant. I trimmed the tops off a while ago because they grew too tall. some are gathering a lot of diatoms on the tops and even little baby leaves are falling off.


20181119_190226.jpg

20181119_190140.jpg
20181119_190151.jpg



i'll trim them and replant them next to my bacopa in the background. I wanted them tall and clustered to hide my sponge filter. I'll probably just get an amazon sword or something and plant it there, idk. by bonsaI I mean just your typical rotala indica, basically.


I uprooted them and some of their stems that were in the substrate (bdbs) were rotting. some had grown roots. I guess i'm planting them too far into the substrate?? am I only just supposed to cover the roots and that's it? they don't stay in my stupid sand unless I push them way down :/


20181119_190214.jpg

look at these ratty leaves lol
20181119_190316.jpg

i'm pretty unhappy with my setup tbh. my plants look like doodoo. I might do a rescape later and try to add more seiryu stone and very basic low light plants. I also REALLY need to get a background lol


20181119_190348.jpg
I don't think it matters how much you plant, I’ve never had trouble with it. It could be that the sand is too fine and possibly compacting, creating anaerobic pockets, which can start to suffocate the plant. Let me bring in SeattleRoy hopefully he can help?

It also looks like the ludwigia was sitting in the darkest area of the tank, where the light doesn’t touch, maybe get a better light?


I was thinking about true rotala indica(ammania bonsai). It’s a cool, uncommon short plant. You can probably include it, if you do plan to do a re scape.
 

midna

I don't think it matters how much you plant, I’ve never had trouble with it. It could be that the sand is too fine and possibly compacting, creating anaerobic pockets, which can start to suffocate the plant. Let me bring in SeattleRoy hopefully he can help?

It also looks like the ludwigia was sitting in the darkest area of the tank, where the light doesn’t touch, maybe get a better light?


I was thinking about true rotala indica(ammania bonsai). It’s a cool, uncommon short plant. You can probably include it, if you do plan to do a re scape.

I know I probably should be poking the sand but like..... I don't............ HaHaHa now i'm afraid if I do start poking it, it'll kill my fish

oh, I actually move the light over to that corner when it's on. I just had it in the center for the pic. I kinda thought the light would be a little bit longer, or at least cover more surface area. a better light would mean more $$$$$ (plus I don't even know what to get) but I guess more plants and rocks cost money too lol.

I was thinking like. this or this whenever my lfs gets "rotala indica" in, it's actually rotundifolia :/ but it looks like indica is a medium light plant so nvm
 

SeattleRoy

HI midna

Thank you bryangar. Midna some of the issues may be a need for more light but mostly it looks a nutrient deficiency. What can you tell me about the water parameters of your tank?

pH -
dKH -
dGH -
nitrates (ppm of NO3) -

I see you are in the Dallas, Texas area where water comes from reservoirs but is typically hard and alkaline, do you have a water softener in your home?
 

Vishaquatics

Your ludwigia appears to have been grown emersed, which is why it is losing the leaves on the bottom. When I first ordered ludwigia from a seller that grows them emersed, all the lower leaves dropped off like this, but new growth quickly took over. In a lowtech environment, it doesn't surprise me that it has taken months to even see a bit of progress. They honestly don't look too shabby.

To address the fertilizer, I used to use Thrive+ as well and I still do on some of my lowtech tanks. I'd trying upping the Thrive dosage from 1mL to 1.3mL. Additionally, circulation is extremely important in a planted tank. I only see a sponge filter in the tank, so adding a small circulation pump would be highly beneficial.

Lastly, I'd recommend putting root tabs under the substrate even for stem feeding plants because a root nutrient substrate helps every type of plant, even if it doesn't feed heavily off of the substrate. I personally love the osmocote root tabs from eBay.

Edit: I have a lowtech dirted 10 gallon that only has a Nicrew LED and doesn't receive liquid ferts. The ludwigia repens in there grows green, but it grows beautifully as well as the rotala rotundifolia. The light is definitely adequate for a lowtech tank and is actually a brand I recommend for lowtech tanks. This is almost definitely a circulation/nutrient issue. Again, I think root tabs and a slightly higher Thrive dosing will be highly beneficial.
 

midna

HI midna

Thank you bryangar. Midna some of the issues may be a need for more light but mostly it looks a nutrient deficiency. What can you tell me about the water parameters of your tank?

pH -
dKH -
dGH -
nitrates (ppm of NO3) -

I see you are in the Dallas, Texas area where water comes from reservoirs but is typically hard and alkaline, do you have a water softener in your home?

hI roy, thanks for popping in! the ph of my tank is kind of undetermined. I use the apI master test kit and have tested using both the low ph and high ph tests. the low ph test always registers as the highest ph range, 7.6, and the high ph always registers as 7.4, the lowest ph range. so I guess it's one of those or in between. the water straight out of my tap is usually 8 - 8.2.

unfortunately I don't have a gh/kh kit, but I looked at my city's water report for earlier this year and these were the ranges. you're right that we have very hard water. we do not use a water softener. i'm not 100% certain on the kh and gh because they were using different terms than what i'm used to. I thought kh and gh were typically very low numbers, like in the single digits.

tds: 292 - 562
kh: 124 - 199
gh: 159 - 164

nitrates at the moment are around 20ppm. they can range anywhere from 5ppm (after a water change) to up to 40ppm (before a water change). the ferts I use typically add a good deal of nitrates, which is part of the reason why I cut back on them.

Your ludwigia appears to have been grown emersed, which is why it is losing the leaves on the bottom. When I first ordered ludwigia from a seller that grows them emersed, all the lower leaves dropped off like this, but new growth quickly took over. In a lowtech environment, it doesn't surprise me that it has taken months to even see a bit of progress. They honestly don't look too shabby.

To address the fertilizer, I used to use Thrive+ as well and I still do on some of my lowtech tanks. I'd trying upping the Thrive dosage from 1mL to 1.3mL. Additionally, circulation is extremely important in a planted tank. I only see a sponge filter in the tank, so adding a small circulation pump would be highly beneficial.

Lastly, I'd recommend putting root tabs under the substrate even for stem feeding plants because a root nutrient substrate helps every type of plant, even if it doesn't feed heavily off of the substrate. I personally love the osmocote root tabs from eBay.

Edit: I have a lowtech dirted 10 gallon that only has a Nicrew LED and doesn't receive liquid ferts. The ludwigia repens in there grows green, but it grows beautifully as well as the rotala rotundifolia. The light is definitely adequate for a lowtech tank and is actually a brand I recommend for lowtech tanks. This is almost definitely a circulation/nutrient issue. Again, I think root tabs and a slightly higher Thrive dosing will be highly beneficial.

interesting. i'm pretty sure my lfs gets their plants from, so they probably were grown emersed. I'll try upping the ferts! my plants do look like they have some other deficiencies that might not just be light-related.

like a wave maker/powerhead?? unfortunately this is a betta tank, so I doubt he'd appreciate lots of current :/ he is a plakat, so he can swim very well, but i'm afraid the tank is just too small. I was thinking about adding a small azoo palm mignon 60 hob to increase filtration and water movement, but i'm not sure. I don't wanna stress the poor guy out. I have heard that circluation is very good for plants though.

I did recently add some flourish root tabs under the stem plants. they seemed to perk up a bit. could you link me the listing for the root tabs? do I then have to put them into gel capsules? I was looking into osmocote because it's cheaper than seachem.


I done goofed and took the ludwigia out earlier, hoping to replant them tomorrow. I covered their roots in water but when I came back an hour or two later, the plants had wilted and looked pretty dead. I just decided to toss them. maybe I'll look into buying more from someone who grows them submerged later.

thank you for all your help!
 

Vishaquatics

Here's the listing:
midna

Thank you for the shoutout EMR I'm glad you liked the plants!

I do have quite a bit of ludwigia repens for sale, and it is grown 100% submerged. Please send me a PM if you are interested. I also have many other lowtech plants for sale as well if you are interested.
 

SeattleRoy

hI roy, thanks for popping in! the ph of my tank is kind of undetermined. I use the apI master test kit and have tested using both the low ph and high ph tests. the low ph test always registers as the highest ph range, 7.6, and the high ph always registers as 7.4, the lowest ph range. so I guess it's one of those or in between. the water straight out of my tap is usually 8 - 8.2.

unfortunately I don't have a gh/kh kit, but I looked at my city's water report for earlier this year and these were the ranges. you're right that we have very hard water. we do not use a water softener. i'm not 100% certain on the kh and gh because they were using different terms than what i'm used to. I thought kh and gh were typically very low numbers, like in the single digits.

tds: 292 - 562
kh: 124 - 199
gh: 159 - 164

nitrates at the moment are around 20ppm. they can range anywhere from 5ppm (after a water change) to up to 40ppm (before a water change). the ferts I use typically add a good deal of nitrates, which is part of the reason why I cut back on them.

HI All,

There a four (4) test kits that I firmly believe folks who are serious about growing plants should have on hand: pH Test Kit, (d)KH Test Kit, (d)GH Test Kit (or combo KH/GH Test Kit); and a Nitrate Test Kit. Those kits can save a lot of time, frustration, and money by helping you "home-in" on possible issues.

HI midna

The picture that caught my eye is the one below. I downloaded it, enhanced it, and added arrows so it is easier to see what I am referencing.

m1wzHcTxC9xCJQb5GIkolKaExYYUVDHErx6vSs-BPE0h0Ku7FgdKpwKF1KNwSJEF6e-xAfRyDyZ4FyU-EYw=w833-h876-no.jpg

There may have a couple of deficiencies happening in that tank but I one that is most obvious is iron (Fe). Please note at the arrow - do you see how the newer leaf has dark veins and the area between the veins is lighter in color, in this case almost 'yellowish'? That is called interveinal chlorosis and it can be caused by a number of factors however when it appears on newer leaves the most common cause is a lack of iron (Fe).

I know that Thrive+ contains iron however the decription of the product states:
Thrive+ is specially designed for high tech, low ph(7ph or under) tanks.

It is likely that the source of iron in Thrive+ is ETDA chelated iron, which works fine in tanks that are acidic. However the availability of ETDA chlelated iron drops off substantially as the pH increase above ph@6.2. At a pH of 7.5 only about 4% of the iron in solution is actually available to the plants.

Eqjf3R_XevrKUgw2EprEW4-8XB52IH6yGBh9J2It3Czp2NvmvQLuHOr1Q4vgf2ntOTf-JVXJeHYotU8QbEg=w561-h691-no.jpg

What I suggest is picking up a bottle of Seachem Flourish Iron, it is made from ferrous gluconate which is much more readily available to plants in alkaline environments. Dose one milliliter (1 ml) 3X per week on days that you do not dose the Thrive+. That should provide sufficient iron to improve your plant growth. Next time you purchase fertilizer I suggest regular Thrive which is a much better product for tanks with a pH greater 6.8

Now the hard part.......wait. Over the next two weeks watch the new leaves as they emerge; do not watch the existing leaves they will not change. Do the new leaves look healthier, greener, is the interveinal chlorosis diminished or gone altogether? If so you are on the right path. Post pictures in this thread as thing progress so we can see how the new growth is going. If questions, just ask! -Roy (aka SeattleRoy)
 

midna

You’re in luck! Koi man is selling some on here

Want To Sell - Really Pretty Ludwigia Repens, Dwarf Sag, And Pearlweed

I’ve purchased from him before. Good stuff!

I was looking at that!! i'm afraid my tank will kill that pretty ludwigia, lol. I think dwarf sag will be good to replace my pygmy chain swords with, which decided to die on me too. and i'd love to get some pearlweed for my new tank. I wanna hold off buying until I get my new tank though, so if you have any of this stuff in the near future Koiman, I'll definitely consider!

Here's the listing:
midna

Thank you for the shoutout EMR I'm glad you liked the plants!

I do have quite a bit of ludwigia repens for sale, and it is grown 100% submerged. Please send me a PM if you are interested. I also have many other lowtech plants for sale as well if you are interested.

thank you so much! good, they're already in the gel capsules.

HI All,

There a four (4) test kits that I firmly believe folks who are serious about growing plants should have on hand: pH Test Kit, (d)KH Test Kit, (d)GH Test Kit (or combo KH/GH Test Kit); and a Nitrate Test Kit. Those kits can save a lot of time, frustration, and money by helping you "home-in" on possible issues.

HI midna

The picture that caught my eye is the one below. I downloaded it, enhanced it, and added arrows so it is easier to see what I am referencing.

m1wzHcTxC9xCJQb5GIkolKaExYYUVDHErx6vSs-BPE0h0Ku7FgdKpwKF1KNwSJEF6e-xAfRyDyZ4FyU-EYw=w833-h876-no.jpg

There may have a couple of deficiencies happening in that tank but I one that is most obvious is iron (Fe). Please note at the arrow - do you see how the newer leaf has dark veins and the area between the veins is lighter in color, in this case almost 'yellowish'? That is called interveinal chlorosis and it can be caused by a number of factors however when it appears on newer leaves the most common cause is a lack of iron (Fe).

I know that Thrive+ contains iron however the decription of the product states:

It is likely that the source of iron in Thrive+ is ETDA chelated iron, which works fine in tanks that are acidic. However the availability of ETDA chlelated iron drops off substantially as the pH increase above ph@6.2. At a pH of 7.5 only about 4% of the iron in solution is actually available to the plants.

Eqjf3R_XevrKUgw2EprEW4-8XB52IH6yGBh9J2It3Czp2NvmvQLuHOr1Q4vgf2ntOTf-JVXJeHYotU8QbEg=w561-h691-no.jpg

What I suggest is picking up a bottle of Seachem Flourish Iron, it is made from ferrous gluconate which is much more readily available to plants in alkaline environments. Dose one milliliter (1 ml) 3X per week on days that you do not dose the Thrive+. That should provide sufficient iron to improve your plant growth. Next time you purchase fertilizer I suggest regular Thrive which is a much better product for tanks with a pH greater 6.8

Now the hard part.......wait. Over the next two weeks watch the new leaves as they emerge; do not watch the existing leaves they will not change. Do the new leaves look healthier, greener, is the interveinal chlorosis diminished or gone altogether? If so you are on the right path. Post pictures in this thread as thing progress so we can see how the new growth is going. If questions, just ask! -Roy (aka SeattleRoy)

thank you so much!! I actually read that about iron recently, and was afraid my higher ph wouldn't let my plants absorb certain nutrients i'm definitely going to get regular thrive whenever I run out of thrive+. I wanted to exchange it once I found out I had made a mistake but I would have had to pay a hefty shipping fee... pffff. I will pick up a bottle of flourish iron on monday
 

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