look how these poor fellas are kept in thailand..thought the cups were bad

lolagurl
  • #1
these are even tinier then the cups at the pet store. >
 
Sparkling Diamonds
  • #2
I was looking for a place that would direct me to contact info. I'd love to write them an e-mail telling them about my bettas, the two 3 GALLON tanks and one 5 gallon. And i'd direct them here to see how we treat our bettas and how happy they are. I'd also point out to them a few contradictions in their own article. Saying how larger is better and how if they have more space, the more they swim. Then they say that their fish are completely happy in little jar building bubble nests... Just because they build bubble nests doesn't mean that they're completely happy. Looking at my Neil right now, yes he's in a time out in his cup. He's got a bubble nest. But I know for a fact that he's miserable in there because of how he reacted when being placed in there and how he wants out now. Gosh... people like that really push my buttons. :-[ Sorry about the rant... hah
 
Phloxface
  • #3
I saw that site a long time ago. It's horrific how they are treated like merchandise!  >  Those tiny bags they ship them in is SO cruel!
The Bettas that get shipped to Petsmart (and I assume most other chain stores) are packed in large styrofoam coolers packed in the same cups they sell them in. It's not great but still better than those tiny bags! They also come from local breeders so they only travel for about an hour at most in there before getting to the store.
Those Thailand breeders considers themselves Betta experts but I just consider them CRUEL!
 
sirdarksol
  • #4
This is why I started the "contact big chains" thread. If you can get the chains to change the way they do things, it's more likely others will follow.
 
nmwierman1977
  • #5
Just so you know those cups they are in are really no smaller then the ones at Petsmart.And, also when they need to be shipped out of state or country they need to be bagged. There really is nothing cruel about it. IMO the bags are much safer when being shipped long distances because they are bouncing around and could actually hurt themselves if in one of those hard plastic cups. The bag is much softer for them to bang against and they will not get hurt.That is exactly how Miami aquariums ship their fish and it is very safe for them and very well done. They still put them in those styrofoam coolers for extra security and safety. That is just my opinion on it. Natalie
 
Phloxface
  • #6
They don't ship in bags THAT small do they?  I would never buy from anyone who shipped a fish to me in a bag that small! The fish cannot even turn around in there. There couldn't be more than 4 tablespoons of water in there, barely enough to keep the fish wet! I agree shipping them bagged is safer, but the bags need to be large enough to allow the Betta to swim a little and to prevent the ammonia from killing them during the trip, and also enough air to sustain them. IMO nothing less than 2-3 cups of water would be acceptable to me for shipping.
I don't think I'd ever order a fish online either way. I just find the idea of a fish going through the mail too scary. Not all people working at the couriers really care whether there is a live animal in there or not. Who knows what horrors they could go through during shipping?
I don't know what pet store Bettas have been through either but they don't have a long distance trip to the store and at least I don't have to wait for my fish to arrive in the mail and worry what he's going through and whether he'll be alive when he gets there. I'm just too much of a chicken for that! 
I would buy from Miami Aquariums ONLY if they were nearby and I could pick up the fish myself. I'm sure they do everything possible to ship the fish properly but once it's in the mail it's out of their hands. Unfortunately there are no good Betta breeders selling to the public in the Toronto area that I know of.
 
nmwierman1977
  • #7
I received RJ from Miami aquariums. I was very impressed withthe way he was packed. He was double bagged. first in I would say maybe a 6 oz bag, pretty small( but I think they purposely do that so they can't cause harm to themselves like biting themselves in turning around and also less bouncing around in a smaller more contained area. It's all for safety purposes.) Then that bag is in a bigger bag for more protection. The bag was also wrapped in newspaper.Then it's put in a styrofoam cooler for more padding and protection. They also either put an ice pack or heat pack in the packages depending on weather. If the weather is too severe they will wait to ship till it's better for them.They also ship overnight only. I live in Phoenix, AZ and they are in FL. I received RJ in less then 24 hours. He is the healthiest Betta I've owned by far and I have not had any problems with him at all except for a minor case of tail rot, but that was my fault. Rose orders all of her Betta's from them.They are very good and care a great deal about their Betta's. Natalie
 
Eskielvr
  • #8
What is Miami aquarium's website? I've been trying to find it for a while but can't get anything other than the actual aquarium in Miami
 
chickadee
  • #9
Yes it is true that you do NOT want your fish shipped in a great big bag or they will be thrown all over the place. I have had bettas come in bags the size that the fish are packed in at petstores to take them home in and they arrive in poor condition sometimes as they are so shocked by being tossed about. The bettas in the tiny bags just nestle down and rest for the day or so that it takes for them to get here.

Miami Aquariums does not feed them the day before they are shipped so they are not going to produce waste for the trip to pollute the bag any more than they have to. They are given an Oxygen charge in the little bag and some nice clean water and since the fish are not big hulky bettas they have plenty of room in the small bag, but not so much that they feel insecure. They come a little stressed from the trip (little Damon was white when I took him out of the bag, but within 5 minutes he was fire engine red .... remember he is afraid of the dark) but you can tell from the health of them that they have been loved and cared for. I am sure that Natalie will agree with me, they are shipped just as they should be.

Rose
 
COBettaCouple
  • #10
When we saw them open a box of bettas at petco, they were in bags so small it was pretty much just the size of the betta.
 
nmwierman1977
  • #11
Yes it is true that you do NOT want your fish shipped in a great big bag or they will be thrown all over the place. I have had bettas come in bags the size that the fish are packed in at petstores to take them home in and they arrive in poor condition sometimes as they are so shocked by being tossed about. The bettas in the tiny bags just nestle down and rest for the day or so that it takes for them to get here.

Miami Aquariums does not feed them the day before they are shipped so they are not going to produce waste for the trip to pollute the bag any more than they have to. They are given an Oxygen charge in the little bag and some nice clean water and since the fish are not big hulky bettas they have plenty of room in the small bag, but not so much that they feel insecure. They come a little stressed from the trip (little Damon was white when I took him out of the bag, but within 5 minutes he was fire engine red .... remember he is afraid of the dark) but you can tell from the health of them that they have been loved and cared for. I am sure that Natalie will agree with me, they are shipped just as they should be.

Rose

Yes, Rose I agree with you whole heartedly. Natalie
 
lolagurl
  • Thread Starter
  • #12
Just so you know those cups they are in are really no smaller then the ones at Petsmart.And, also when they need to be shipped out of state or country they need to be bagged. There really is nothing cruel about it. IMO the bags are much safer when being shipped long distances because they are bouncing around and could actually hurt themselves if in one of those hard plastic cups. The bag is much softer for them to bang against and they will not get hurt.That is exactly how Miami aquariums ship their fish and it is very safe for them and very well done. They still put them in those  styrofoam coolers for extra security and safety. That is just my opinion on it. Natalie
well I must have a different petsmart then you .If you look at the site I showed you the first pic with the sea through cups are the ones at our petsmart. if you look at the styrofoam cup they keep them in in the next pictures, you can tell by the comparison to the hand holding it it is smaller. Also the fish in tjhe styrofoam cup always has to be bent to fit and cannot float straight like in the clear plastic cups.
 
sirdarksol
  • #13
Just so you know those cups they are in are really no smaller then the ones at Petsmart.And, also when they need to be shipped out of state or country they need to be bagged. There really is nothing cruel about it. IMO the bags are much safer when being shipped long distances because they are bouncing around and could actually hurt themselves if in one of those hard plastic cups. The bag is much softer for them to bang against and they will not get hurt.That is exactly how Miami aquariums ship their fish and it is very safe for them and very well done. They still put them in those styrofoam coolers for extra security and safety. That is just my opinion on it. Natalie
well I must have a different petsmart then you .If you look at the site I showed you the first pic with the sea through cups are the ones at our petsmart. if you look at the styrofoam cup they keep them in in the next pictures, you can tell by the comparison to the hand holding it it is smaller. Also the fish in tjhe styrofoam cup always has to be bent to fit and cannot float straight like in the clear plastic cups.

I agree. Some of the cups on the huge pallets are about the same size as the Petsmart cups, just maybe a bit taller and a bit narrower. On the other hand, some of them are really, really tiny.

My problem isn't just the size of the cups, and I should have said this before. It's also in the sheer number being held. If they didn't have so many fish that a huge number of them will die before being bought, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it.
 
armadillo
  • #14
Shocking! I have a problem with the fact that the cups are not even transparent, and that they're tiny. Sure they're not that much smaller than the cups in petstores, but I have a problem with that too.
 
poefox
  • #15
The problem is this: frankly it is not economical to keep bettas in tanks when breeding them or selling them. Consider that only female bettas are ever sold in stores in tanks for instance because you can theoretically keep them together if they're young enough. Males WILL fight. Bettas are not such expensive fish (like say ghost knives) that they can be cost effective to keep in an individual tank. That's the bottom line, ladies and gentlemen. Most other tropical fish commonly sold can be kept in community tanks. Bettas--well some are wary of even doing that on an individual basis with them for the simple reason that males can be aggressive and a fair number of other fish are social fin nippers. It simply isn't possible to sell them in tanks or breed them in tanks and still make money doing it.
 
armadillo
  • #16
Yes, these are sensible arguments, but there's small and there's small. Perhaps if transport/storage was better regulated, like for sheep? That looked like a betta warehouse.
 
nmwierman1977
  • #17
Well I didn't scroll all the way down and hadn't notice the little 3 oz drinking cups. Those are a bit too small for even a betta, but being kept in those bigger ones like the ones you see at Petsmart is really not that bad especially since like Poefox said it's nearly impossible to keep them, males especially, in tanks. It way too expensive to do that for a breeder. I mean obviuosly if they have the money to at least house them in the little 1 gallon tanks or even containers more power to them, but you have look to where the breeders are coming from too. If Betta's were more sociable fish and not so aggressive towards certain other fish I'm sure they would be kept in tanks with the other fish, but they simply are not sociable fish. Natalie
 
armadillo
  • #18
Wouldn't it make very little difference to house them in large tanks, with partitions? That way, you can have a number of fish in a tank, so investment in a single tank is not quite so high. Obviously, you'd need to still make sure the partitions are not too tiny, or back to square one.
 
Asinity
  • #19
Still far more cost effective to buy cups in bulk. I worked at McDonald's years ago and did a lot of work with the product ordering, a large box of say 500 cups (It was some massive number like this) was like $20 for the store to buy, going with smaller, plastic cups is likely cheaper yet if you have the right supplier.

Even so, retailers will not buy tanks specifically for bettas, when you figure they order in so many of them, they'd have a fish section, and then they'd need a whole separate section strictly for bettas, so cups again are far more cost effective.

Ultimately it would really not make much difference if the breeder kept them in tanks, because they would wind up in the little cups anyway. Also, tanks would have filtration and all that other good stuff, whereas with the cups, they don't get anything.

Sadly, money makes the world go 'round
 
armadillo
  • #20
But that's what I mean: it is just because of money, it is not an impossible physical barrier. You don't often see kids neglected and living in appalling conditions in our society. That's not accepted, and it's forbidden by law. And indeed, it would be cheaper to have your kid live in a cardboard box outside, but we just don't do it.

I dream of a world where animal welfare is taken a lot more seriously by society. I don't mean you. I know you also with for a fish-happy world. Sure it costs money, so what? There is always a way. It's going to cost money to sort out our energy problem, but we need to buckle up and do it, end of story. Why not for animals husbandry?
 
Asinity
  • #21
I can definitely agree with that.

It's just sad that unless it makes money, it doesn't happen. Obviously humans are the one exception to that, but as far as our environment and wildlife goes it's all expendable, and that's a sin.
 
armadillo
  • #22
It's so tiring to always try to change the world! Maybe I'll stop when am 60! It's just that it's really my pet subject. It runs in the family. My dad got put in jail for one night when he was in Spain trying to stop drunks on the street from blinding a bat with their lit cigarette butts for fun. I got in trouble in the US because I pointed the torch (flashlight in American English?) of a policewoman in Floriday. She was really being disrespectful to a baby alligator that had just got ran over on the side of the road. She was poking it really unnecessarily, and flashing the torch in his eyes like, constantly.
 
poefox
  • #23
Fair enough. It does take some thinking and possibly agitation to change things.
 
armadillo
  • #24
Am not so much into the agitation side of things. Can't see myself as a tree-hugging activist. I just like to quietly whinge!
 
fishnewb
  • #25
it's SOOO sad isn't it? actually here, at our Petsmart ... they're kept in cups just like that, except they're clear. it breaks my heart and sadly ... I just try to ignore it and shut it out because it's all I can do to keep my cool.

I actually rescued one today <3
 
chickadee
  • #26
There are new bags being used now to ship fish in also that do not have air added to them as air is able to move through the wall of the bag but water will not leak out. This will only work if there is no air in the bag so it looks very funny when you see them as it looks like the fish and water is all there is and they forgot to give the fish any air. This makes it possible for them to ship twice as many fish and cuts down on the sloshing about of the fish and injuries of the fins and bodies of the fish. I realize you are all probably recoiling in horror but believe me please there are advantages to all this for the fish. The amount of time in shipment is so very short and the time spent in the bags is very little and they are probably better cared for and healthier at the point of being put in the bags than at any time than they will be until you buy them and care for them. It is the middleman that will give you your problems, I really believe. They have little invested in the fish and little incentive to care for them in the manner to which they so richly deserve.

Rose
 
poefox
  • #27
My one thought about that Rose is that the shops could perhaps think of upselling though. For instance the default is often the little one gallon or even smaller containers when in fact at least a 2 1/2 or better still a 5 gives the betta a chance to thrive. They don't cost THAT much. Surely it's worth the time and investment to sell a better product?
 
COBettaCouple
  • #28
You would think that they'd want to sell bigger, more expensive tanks.
 
Phloxface
  • #29
I have personally taken aside customers in Petsmart that I saw buying a Betta and talked them into buying a larger tank (or in some cases larger bowl if they really didn't want a tank) after the sales idiot walked away. I've also advised on better products such as NovAqua+ instead of those tiny watered down bottles of "Betta Conditioner" which in the long run cost more... better foods and told them how much to feed and told them about regular pea treats and so on. I've never had anyone get mad at me for doing that because I always approach them in a friendly helpful way. They always seem to appreciate the advice and I tell them I have 7 Bettas of my own so they trust my advice more than the sales people. I think the customers do honestly want to give their pet the best care, but sometimes they just get bad advice.

The sales people ARE supposed to upsell all the time but in places like Petsmart/Walmart etc. they don't get commission on sales so they just don't care enough to make the effort. 

If you overhear a sale person selling a new Betta owner a tiny bowl or "Betta Kit" and telling them that Bettas prefer tiny spaces go talk to the manager about what you heard. I have done it and the manager was none too happy to hear their people were not upselling! Telling a customer that Bettas prefer small spaces basically assures that the customer will not even consider a larger and more expensive tank. Stores are all about making money and they will talk to the employee who is not upselling.
I complain constantly to the managers there when I see something fishy going on in the fish dept.    They DO listen although sometimes you have to get after them more than once. I complained no less than SIX times over the past week to several different managers about a poor little Glass Fish who was absolutely COVERED in cotton body fungus. After a few days several other fish in the tank had the same fungus on them too. I kept after them and now finally, they are medicating the tank and the poor fungus fish are getting better. I not only complain, I follow up and make sure it gets done and they know it. 
 
COBettaCouple
  • #30
LOL.. phloxface, we relate.. the other day we were at petco picking up the little injured female to take home and heard a couple looking at one of those little kits with tiny bottles of like that so we took them over to where the prime and novaqua+, etc was and set them up with the things to buy there, the apI testing kit and some advice for their tank.. naturally the store worker in that section didn't mind since, as is common there, there wasn't any store worker over in aquatics.
 
armadillo
  • #31
LOL.. phloxface, we relate.. the other day we were at petco picking up the little injured female to take home and heard a couple looking at one of those little kits with tiny bottles of like that so we took them over to where the prime and novaqua+, etc was and set them up with the things to buy there, the apI testing kit and some advice for their tank.. naturally the store worker in that section didn't mind since, as is common there, there wasn't any store worker over in aquatics.

They went past the Prime? I would sell my soul for Prime at this stage. I absolutely can't find it here in Holland.
 
COBettaCouple
  • #32
They went past the Prime? I would sell my soul for Prime at this stage. I absolutely can't find it here in Holland.

LOL.. yea, they had no clue what it was or anything about the products in that section. i'd love to ship you some, but I bet the shipping would be tremendous.
 
armadillo
  • #33
They went past the Prime? I would sell my soul for Prime at this stage. I absolutely can't find it here in Holland.

LOL.. yea, they had no clue what it was or anything about the products in that section. i'd love to ship you some, but I bet the shipping would be tremendous.

Awww, thanks! Yeah, I'll bet the shipping costs more than the product. But Am trying more indirect channels now. Ordered some from a shop which never replies, and ordered some from online store (also never replies). We'll see. There will be a way.
 
COBettaCouple
  • #34
Awww, thanks! Yeah, I'll bet the shipping costs more than the product. But Am trying more indirect channels now. Ordered some from a shop which never replies, and ordered some from online store (also never replies). We'll see. There will be a way.

well, best of luck with finding some. Hopefully at a good price as well.
 
poefox
  • #35
I spoke to a manager recently at Petsmart and he said he was a little tired of his employees not upselling--apart from everything else he said that the customer is also losing out on some of the pleasures of fish owning, so therefore are buying inferior products and probably not keen to buy more as a result...anyway I guess we can all do our bit to improve at least how the bettas are taken from the store...
 
COBettaCouple
  • #36
I spoke to a manager recently at Petsmart and he said he was a little tired of his employees not upselling--apart from everything else he said that the customer is also losing out on some of the pleasures of fish owning, so therefore are buying inferior products and probably not keen to buy more as a result...anyway I guess we can all do our bit to improve at least how the bettas are taken from the store...

The manager of the petco here would be going a step up to find employees that even showed an interest in selling anything period. this particular store leaves the impression that the fish section is an afterthought and not worth even having an employee in.
 
Jendayi
  • #37
I have 2 petcos that I visit. The closest one is also like yours where there is never a person in the aquarium section and I wouldn't buy any of their fish - ever. The one across town is completely opposite, and that's where I got Jett. There is always someone in the department there, and their tanks look awesome and the fish look healthy (poor bettas are still in their little cups, tho, oh well). Although no one at either of these stores (or the Petsmart across the street) has ever attempted to give me any information about any of the products that I buy. I get all my info from you guys online. It's a shame there isn't more of an effort made to educate the public, they surely could increase their sales at the same time.
 
sirdarksol
  • #38
You would think that they'd want to sell bigger, more expensive tanks.

They probably get more money from sales of a larger number of smaller tanks. You tell people that bettas are really easy to keep, all you need is this $15 tank, no heater or anything, a little bit of food, maybe vacuum it out to make it look prettier periodically, and you'll get a lot of people who want fish for their kids. Otherwise, you end up with a much smaller number of people who buy the proper size tanks and equipment for the fish they plan to keep. Larger amount per sale, but perhaps smaller amount total.
 
COBettaCouple
  • #39
Sadly, that's probably true. I just really hate the cups they sell.. the little ones that give a betta the room they had at the store. Even a vase is better than one of those things.
 
voiceless_kat
  • #40
I had occasion to visit a Petsmart yesterday, when we took our family to the airport. I thought I would check for either BioSpira or ZymBac - neither of which they had. So I went to look at the bettas, and was most upset at what I saw. Walmart is bad enough selling these fish in a small cottage cheese like container. Petsmart had theirs in cups that were the size of the bottom part of a soft drink cup you would get to take a drink out in. It couldn't have been more than three inches across and about5 inches high.

There was an amazingly large red betta who couldn't even stretch out, his tail had to stay curled!! And he was not the exception, more were curled into the shape of the cup than could move. OMG I was just sick > :'(. No one around. Had to leave. Who does this??

And they were expensive. Everything I saw I could buy cheaper from Foster & Smith in American dollars and paying the shipping. I was glad I didn't have to buy anything and support that store. Even Walmart looked good in comparison!! And this is in North America!!!
 

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