I've lost 2 more

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Eskielvr

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I woke up this morning and 2 more Neons are dead. I don't know what to do. I treated them with ParaGuard last night. A few had just a couple itty bitty white fluffy something on them. Not sure if it's Ich or velvet. Again they all seemed fine last night. I can't get anyone to answer me under the Neon or Disease section and I'm really getting frustrated because I don't know what to do. I guess I'll go ahead and give them another treatment of ParaGuard. I may go and do a water change first.

Other than that my only other options are just wait until they all die I guess. I'll probably go ahead and order the bottle of "Euthanize" while I'm at it. I just don't know what else to do.
 

Terry

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Hi. There are better experts on here than me so hopefully you'll get other responses. I wasn't familiar with Paraguard so I had to look it up:

"Seachem ParaGuard is a fish and filter safe parasite control product. Unlike highly toxic and difficult to use formalin based medication, ParaGuard contains no formaldehyde or methanol and will not alter pH. ParaGuard employs malachite green, and fish protective polymers that effectively and efficiently eradicate ich and other external parasites or fungal/bacterial/viral wounds. Great for quarantine tanks or whenever new fish are introduced. Can be used in both marine and freshwater aquariums."

It's difficult to tell from your description what the disease is but the "itty bitty" white spots seem to indicate ich. Were there any directions on the Paraguard regarding a reduced dosage for tetras? I have some medication that has the malachite green and formalin in it, and it says to use half the normal dose with tetras, but I'm not sure if that's because of the malachite green or the formalin.

If it is ich, it often develops when the temperature is too low. Have you got a heated aquarium? It's often recommended to also raise the temperature to help in getting rid of ich.

Sorry about losing the fish. I have neons too and unbelievably the ones I have now have survived ich outbreaks, diseases and other problems that have wiped out my other fish. And I always considered them very sensitive fish. They might be, but not the 7 that I have.

Hopefully someone else has some ideas.
 
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Eskielvr

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Ok, thanks. I was wondering if ParaGuard worked on Ich.......it says bacterial/fungal, etc but I don't know which diseases are bacterial, which are fungal, and which are parasites. (I was told Ich was an external parasite.)

I also have a medication called Nox-Ich....and it says it does Ich and Velvet. I wasn't sure if I should be using that instead or not. That one says to reduce the amount for tetras and scaleless fish like my Corys and Otos, but the other one also has the green stuff in it and it doesn't say to reduce it for them.

I'm wondering if the ParaGuard I'm using will be just fine or should I try a different medication? The problem is, if I need a different medication I'll have to run my filter with carbon in it for 48 hours to get rid of the ParaGuard, won't I? I don't think I can use both medications together. By the time I filter for 48 hours they may not make it that long, so I guess I'll have to just keep using the ParaGuard.

It's a 20 gallon tank, and I took 5 gallons out of my tank this morning, and stirred up the gravel to try and get all the junk out, (my Python broke on me this morning, arrrggggg). Then I added 6 1/2 gallons back, put in some stress coat (because I always do at water changes) and then another treatment of ParaGuard.

P.S. I forgot to mention that yes, my aquarium is heated. The temp has always stayed in the mid 70s, I had it set to 77 on the heater and then I yesterday I raised it to 80 or 81. It's showing on the thermometer as being 78 or 79 though.
 

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Hi again. The Paraguard does mention eradicating ich so if that's what they have then maybe just stay with it? Yep - ich is an external parasite and is probably found in most tanks, if not all. The fish are most prone to have the parasites attach when they're stressed from cold, transport, etc. I believe the medications really kill the free swimming forms of ich, which are released from the ones that reach maturity that are attached to the fish. The trick appears to be killing these free swimming parasite before they can attach back to the fish and start the life cycle all over again, with even more attached than the first time. Here's a pretty good website on ich and it's life cycle:

Raising your temperature was a good idea. Mid 70's may be a little bit cool, and may have led to the fish's immunity systems being lowered & open to attack by the ich. I've seen some recommendations to get the temperature up into the low to mid 80s for a couple days while treating for ich, but you want to be sure not to cook the little guys! Hopefully you still have a chance to save the remaining fish, but don't give up on the hobby if it's too late. It can get pretty discouraging at times fighting diseases & other problems. I think we've all had similar things happen to us.

By the way, whats' a Python - a water siphon, filter or ?
 
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Ok, thank you so much for your response. I'm looking over my catalog of different fish medications trying to figure out if I should be using something else instead. I'll should probably go ahead and stick with the ParaGuard then? In the meantime, should I order any kind of back up medication?

A Python is a gravel cleaner that you can also use to refill your tank water. It really saves a lot of time and labor cleaning tanks and cuts down cleaning time by at least half, if not longer. Here's what it looks like
 

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Hi. I think you replied as soon as I posted! I'm on my lunch hour at work so I can "play" on the internet easier during that time. I'm not sure what to tell you on the medication, or if you need a different one. I've sometimes had success with one, and the next time it doesn't work. I guess just following the directions, and hoping that you treated it in time, is about all we can do at times. I win some and I lose some. Timing is sometimes the most important thing. I've taken to being close to obsessive/compulsive lately in closely checking every fish I have for signs of any disease, and testing water quality. Like you, I hate to lose fish too.

Ok on the Python. I was guessing it was probably a siphon/gravel vac type of thing. After looking at the web site you sent I recognized seeing it before. I have no sink close to any of my tanks. Question - what happens with the water that's inside the 25 or 50 feet of hose? I assume it has a shutoff valve to keep it from all draining out onto the floor when you're done. I just use one of those jobs that you move back & forth in the tank till it starts siphoning. I've also considered a battery powered gravel vac by Ehiem, that lets you clean the gravel without having to do a water change at the same time, but even at an online price of about $70 it's a little too steep for my wallet. Maybe some day.
 
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What I do with mine is when I'm done siphoning, I "walk" the hose so that it siphons back in the sink. (You can get longer hoses for it up to 100 feet, or do like we did and attach a regular garden hose to it to make it longer........my tanks aren't that close to my sinks either.) Same thing when I'm done filling. I'll turn it back to siphon and walk the hose (starting from the end nearest the tank and holding the hose over my head, and just walk down the hose until I reach the sink and see all the water get siphoned out)

For the ParaGuard, I forgot I hadn't been shutting my lights off during treatment. So I called and asked their tech support person (who didn't seem very friendly) and she said my lights didn't need to be off. But, I think I'm still about to lose yet another Neon. His head was lowered and his tail was above his head. I'm afraid he's starting to assume the vertical position too.

I asked if I could double the dosage I'm giving, but she said to wait 24 hours between doses. I guess I'm probably going to end up having to euthanize yet another fish. :'( Are all Neons this hard to keep? I'm already done to 7 now and if I have to euthanize this guy I'll be back with the original amount I started with. I just don't know what else to do.
 

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Ok on the Python hose. I think I'll stick with my siphon that I have. My wife is already on my back about all the aquarium stuff I have around and having a hose stretched halfway across the house wouldn't go over to well. The only other question I thought of was if you are refilling with chlorinated tap water do you add dechlor to the tank to make up for it. Doesn't look like there's any way to add the dechlor to the incoming return water before it gets to the tank?

I'm gathering that you just added new neons to the tank recently? I think you said you got no response to posts in another section or sections? If that's the case it may be the new ones that got stressed during transport from the pet shop? Is it possible to tell if it's the new or old ones dying? Unless the ich came in with the new ones? Trying to figure it out. In answer to your question on neons being hard to keep.....years ago I would have said yes, they always seemed hard to keep alive when I was in this hobby years ago. I may have mentioned earlier that the ones I have now have been though just about everything a poor fish can go through and survived while all of my other fish died. The ones in my tank at home are well over a year old and have lived through an ammonia level that went beyond the measurment capabilities of my test kit, through an episode with a heater that wouldn't shut off and the water temp. got into the mid 90s, through a major (and very quick) ich attack that killed my zebras, platys and even my old cory that survived a lot of things in the past. So are they hard to keep - yes and no - how's that for an answer?
 
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I just roll my Python up and hang it up when I'm done, the hose is only stretched out during the course of the water change. It's much easier than trying to pump and pump and pump to get the other gravel cleaners to suction. I had one years ago and hated it. I had such a hard time to get it to work. It's supposed to take out some of the cholorine as it fills, but I just add de-chlor to it anyway when I'm done. Never had a problem with it.

The first batch of Neons was fine. Then I added the second batch and the Betta chased them. Next morning one was dead, followed by another that afternoon. I took out the Betta and they're still dying. Water perimeters have been fine.

I'm really confused now. I called my fish store back and they're not familiar with the meds I'm using. She said it could be a shock when I do water changes because the water temperature is cold. ??? I told her I warm up the water I replace to at or slightly below the current temp, and she said not to use warm water because warm water has minerals in it? ??? ??? ??? Soooo.......does what happens to it when it gets heated with a heater then? ??? ???

She told me 3 different types of medication I could try. Forgive me I have no idea how to spell these so I'll try as hard as I can. Neomycin, Agentisen(?) and Erythromyisn Like I'm going to know where to find those! I can't even spell them! (Ok, I figured out how to spell 2 of them.......how do I know which ones to choose??)

I think I'm going to order my bottle of Euthanize now. :'(
 

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Well, I have no idea why warm water would have more minerals than cold water? I don't think water heaters put minerals in water? That one has me stumped, or they don't know what they're talking about & just giving you a line of ****. I don't know what the inside of a water heater looks like but I'd guess it might put a bit of copper in the water from the piping, if anything at all, but copper is a metal not a mineral. I always use warm water & try to get it as close to tank temperature as I can & I have no problems.

As far as the meds she recommended they appear to all be antibiotics and these aren't typically used to treat parasites. These are usually for things like fin & tail rot. Unless she thinks it's a bacterial infection - maybe they had it wipe out the tank of neons in the shop & identified it as such? I've been going on the assumption that you're dealing with ich, but maybe that's incorrect. I don't think the antibiotic would hurt. No idea what "Agentisen" could be, but I found some info. on the other two:

Neomycin:



Erythromycin:



There are other antibiotics out there that would probably work as well. I've been treating a platy at home with what I think may be velvet. I tried antifungal & antiparasite meds and they did nothing. Then I threw in some Tetracycline I had and that seems to be helping. If it isn't really ich maybe try an antiobiotic?

I'm really sorry in assuming it was ich if it's not. It sounded like it , but it's kinda difficult to do a diagnosis in this manner & I'm certainly not a fish vet!
 
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Eskielvr

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No problem. I was thinking it was Ich, too but I really have no idea. That's why I was using the ParaGuard, since it's a broad spectrum, something...

I've been on the phone with so many different fish techs and store personal and I'm almost on a first name basis with them! I haven't been very successful finding info about Velvet, but I'm wondering if that might be it? I don't know if ParaGuard treats that or not, but my other medication claims to.

Right now they're sitting on the dark. I turned the light off just in case it was affecting the medication. I guess for my situation all I can really do now is just wait to see if they die or not.

I forgot to answer your earlier question about other posts. You're the only one who's responded so far. I think I originally posted yesterday sometime.

Oh yeah I almost forgot. The lady who told me about warm water having more minerals than cold, said I should set my new water out for an hour to get to room temperature before adding it. I couldn't use my Python then (if it wasn't broke) and if I use my bucket it'd take me 5 hours to change the water if I do a 25%! I only have a 1 gallon bucket, no way! I just don't buy her "don't use warm water" theory. That just doesn't make any sense.
 

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Maybe somebody will jump in here & comment on the pet shop saying that warm water has more minerals and isn't good for the fish. And what good would shutting the water heater off for a while do? Makes no sense at all to me, but I could be wrong. I don't think I'll start using cold water & heating it on the range to the right temperature! Maybe the microwave would be better so as to not get any bad substances from a metal pot. To me that shop's recommendation is ridiculous.

I'm not real familiar with velvet, but I think it may be what the platy in my hospital tank has. In my case it's a thing that almost looks like a light colored coating covering a good part of the red platy's side and the fin on that side has been mostly eaten away. I originally thought it was fungus, but the antfungal med did nothing, nor did the antiparasite med. But the antibiotic seems to be getting rid of it. Hard to tell because it hasn't disappeared yet. If the neons were mine I'd go ahead & treat with antibiotic. I'm guessing only that you could treat with both meds - the anti-ich and an antibiotic at the same time. I had 3 meds in the tank with the platy & he didn't seem affected. In fact, the velvet or whatever it is never did seem to have the fish acting sick - it's still active & eats well. I just didn't want to take a chance with it spreading to my other fish.

Was it a pet shop recommendation, or something in the med directions, to keep the fish in the dark? I'd never heard of that before, but there may be a good reason for it.

Good luck. Let me know what happens.

Anyone else out there reading this that can give an opinion on some of these things?
 
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Eskielvr

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That's odd, I sent a reply, or so I thought.

Anyway I thought they might have Neon Tetra Disease but not sure. If they do it said it's not curable and said to destroy your fish. I'm not going to do that though since I'm not sure if that's what they have.

I called Drs Foster and Smith and asked about using the antibiotic Neomycin in conjunction with the ParaGuard, and she spoke to a supervisor who said that's not a good idea and said if I wanted to use the Neomycin I should wait 2 weeks (that seems like a long time.....someone else told me 48 hours with carbon in the tank) in between treatments. I told her unfortunately they'd all probably be dead if I waited that long and thanked her for her advice.

If someone else out there might be able to help would you please respond?? Terry I thank you so much for all your help thus far. It seems like you're the only one who cares. Again thank you so much!
 

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I think I was replying to your reply. You're welcome but no need to thank me. I was hoping someone else would comment on some the comments about using water heater water, etc. etc. Even opinions are always welcome. I've heard of the neon disease but no idea what it is. If nothing else send a reply in a day or two & let me know what's happened with your neons.
 
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I wasn't going to reply until morning, but I found my Bumble Bee shrimp dead, for real this time. Earlier in the afternoon I saw it on the rocks and the head region was all red. I found it in the exact same spot just now, dead. I don't know what caused it and I'm really, really disappointed. I think I'm more upset about losing the shrimp than I am the neons.

I put my filter cartridge back in for an hour in a desperate attempt to remove the ParaGuard and use my Nox-Ich instead, and after an hour and a half or so, I added the Nox-Ich. I know it's risky, but what do I have to loose except more fish, which I'm already losing anyway? I sure hope this helps. I counted all 7 but 2 are off to themselves. I don't know what I'll find in the morning.
 

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Hi. Sorry about the shrimp. I know nothing at all about shrimp, but it may very well be that the meds for the neons and other fish may be toxic to invertebrates like the shrimp.

I just did a search using google, on "Paraguard and shrimp", and it does appear that some people that have used Paraguard have had it kill their shrimp. Here's a link to the websites that came up with the search:

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=paraguard+and+shrimp

I tried African dwarf frogs not too long ago (on sale at a buck apiece) and they didn't last long. I wasn't sure but I think they may have died when I treated the tank with an ich med. Or, the poor things starved to death because I had no source of the live food they really need (I knew better but my wife thought they were cute). In any case, keeping non-fish animals in a tank with fish can lead to problems in treating the fish in the same tank as the invertebrates.
 
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My other shrimp, the Cherry Red, is fine though. Unless whatever is wrong with the fish transferred to him?

Anyway, I treated with Nox-Ich last night and I still have all 7 Neons this morning. I'm tempted to put some more in but I should probably wait the whole 24 hours first. On one of the Neons I do see a white dot now on his side next to his analfin. There could be something more on the inside since it almost looks like it has eggs or something. (Not quite to that extent, but he's just a little bit swollen and I can see more whiteish looking stuff inside) But, a dot is confirmed.

Nox-Ich said to treat for 3 consecutive days. I hope by that time it'll be gone. If not, then what do I treat it with?
 

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Hi. Is the 7 neons the number you had originally before adding the new ones? I think so. Glad you still have the one shrimp. I'd follow the directions on the Nox-Ich since that white dot on the fin of that neon bothers me. I just hope it doesn't affect the shrimp. Just my opinions - I'd hate to recommend anything that's isn't the correct thing to do. Not sure what to treat with if that doesn't work. I've had the ich problems and haven't always been successful in saving the fish. You don't have a quaratine tank you could put that one neon in do you? Or if you could keep the ship in a Q tank while treating the neons that might be better. But then both tanks might still need to be treated.

I'm a bit surprised no one else has offered any opinions on this & some other posts I've seen. It's a bit discouraging to me that there are so many "experts" around with so little to say.
 
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Yeah, it is discouraging, esp with all the hardships I've been having. It seems like the all the other posts are being answered except mine.

Anyway, no I don't have a hospital or isolation tank. I'll be getting a 5 gallon one from my sis in law, but my Betta will be going in there.
 

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Hi. I went searching and there are at least a few other forums similar to this one. One of the two others (and the best of the two) I just signed up for can be found with this link:

https://www.fishforums.net

You'll have to register but it's also free. They even have a forum devoted to Tropical Fish Emergencies which might get you more than the one opinion you've been able to get from one person here (me). It looks like all of the day old posts in this one have been replied to at least once if not more. It's worth a try. It seems like hit & miss on getting a reply here, unless you post an opinion here that someone doesn't agree with - then you'll get people coming out of the woodwork!
 
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