Is this sediment or fin rot in Zen's fins?

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AesSedai

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Zen's been in a 2 gal glass container for almost a month now I think   His 10 gal. got sick with Hydra, flukes and brush algae (he was not in the 10 gal when this happened...phew...had him in the 2 gal to cycle the 10. 

Anyway, I recently switched from Bowl Buddies water conditioner to AmQuel (not the Pro, they didn't have that one).  The owner of the business used a black marker and marked out the dosage directions and changed it to what she thought it needed to be.

She made it FOUR teaspoons per 10 gals instead of the ONE HALF teaspoon it should have been.  I'm a tad (tad?  lol, erm) peeved about it actually because it cost almost $9 for 4 oz. and I feel like she changes the dosage so customers use it up faster and buy more from her and WORSE, if her directions caused Zen any problems, people will hear me for blocks away while I scream at her....and then I'll call Kordon and report her!

So before I go take a piece of her...thought I better check here to be sure what's going on.

For two days my poor Zen dealt with a lil more than a full capful of AmQuel...I stupidly used her dosage.  I asker her about it when I bought it and she said that they up'd it so it worked better.

Welllll......The day after I used that large dose (in Zen's TWO gallon) there was a large, very large coating of white sediment on the bottom of the 2 gal. 

I've had sediment from the hot water faucet before and thought it was that and didn't really notice how much white there was until I removed the suction cups that held his bubbler in the middle, bottom of the 2 gal.  It was like it snowed in there but clear under the suction cups.

I changed his water again stupidly using the same large dosage thinking it was the sediment in spite of what I saw.  I hadn't put it together with the AmQuel overdose yet.  Of course, the next day, yesterday, the white coating was at the bottom of his tank again and it clicked...this is more than the normal amount of sediment, much, much more.  I changed his water again last night only this time I used a lil less than 1/4 teas of AmQuel...the correct dosage this time.

The sediment today is very light (some still left I think from the last 2 days that wasn't suctioned out with the water changes (I don't take Zen out of the 2 gal when I change his water so I don't do a 100% change).

Getting to the point here, really...

Last night I noticed a couple little white specs in Zen's analfin and a lil white piece is on one of his pelvic fins (they seem much bigger than fin rot would be, they really look like the sediment, but I haven't seen fin rot in person either.  My boyfriend and I both felt it was some of that sediment that got caught up in his fins...now I need to be sure. 

I just looked again with a flashlight and counted 5 lil white dots stuck in his fins. 

What are the chances that this is fin rot and NOT sediment stuck to his fins??

I hate, hate to use medicine (I have BettaFix here) unless I absolutely have to so not sure what to do.

I wish I had a decent dig camera so I could take a pic and show you guys.

Anyone ever have stuff stuck to their Betta's fins?  Anyone deal with sediment/floaties when they use hot tap water?  (I went back to holding the thermometer under the faucet until it's the right temp).

There's never a bit of sediment when I use just cold water but it takes allllll day to heat up.

Suggestions?

Maybe I should watch him closely and if I count another white dot, treat him with BettaFix because the sediment is all but gone now (just a tiny bit in there here and there...probably from what I normally get from the hot tap) ??
 

nmwierman1977

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Is His 2 gallon heated? What is the temp in the 2 gallon? The reason I'm asking is because the white spots could be ICH. ICH is a cold water illness. Very curable. The temp needs to be at 85 degrees and it needs to have an airstone with the increase because of lack of oxygen. It very well could be Fin Rot too. If you can try to take a pic of it so we can see it. It sounds like either ICH or fin rot to me. natalie
 

chickadee

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I am afraid maybe you have another problem and it is neither sediment or finrot.  Since he is in an unheated situation, he may be getting ICH.  The white spot disease attacks fish that are in cool water on a consistent basis.  The problem is that the only really effective cure is HEAT like 85 degrees for 14 days.  Now I know that your 10 gallon is not ready but he may have to go into a new bucket with a heater for the duration with a heater.  If you get a nice new bucket with at least a 3 to 4 gallon capacity and a 25 watt heater you do not have to put gravel or any plants or decor in unless you have something you can take with him that will sink to the bottom so he does not think he is being punished.  Raise the temperature over a period of some hours to 85 degrees ( a degree every other hour or so and leave it there for 2 weeks , you will not need medication as the parasite will leave his body at that temperature and die since it has no host to live on.)  The life cycle of the parasite is 2 weeks though so it has to remain at that temperature for 2 weeks or they parasite goes right back on him and you have to start all over again but it is worse because he is weakened from the first time.  This is critical, I hate to do this to you but it is not something you can wait on.  I have treated my little ones in buckets many times when I did not have a q tank available for one reason or another (someone else in it) and they seem very okay with it.  I usually put their cave or some of their "furniture" in with them so they feel that they have some toy that is from home and an airstone and a heater.  I usually have a sponge filter from another tank ready to put in too but you will just have to do frequent water changes and keep the water temperature of the new water above or equal to the 85 degrees so as not to cool him down.  An airstone is going to be important at that temperature though as the water will not hold as much oxygen at that temperature.  

Please let me know how he is doing.  Another thought...you could get one of the plastic storage type boxes instead of a bucket as when he is done with it you can bleach it and have a nice box to store things in and they are at least partially clear and will let more light in.  You can get one at most dollar stores fairly inexpensively and they make a good tank for these types of times if for no other reason.  (or if you feel especially generous a really good sized Kritter Keeper of some type will do too, I just got one for a plant/q tank)

Rose
 
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AesSedai

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nmwierman1977 said:
Is His 2 gallon heated? What is the temp in the 2 gallon? The reason I'm asking is because the white spots could be ICH. ICH is a cold water illness. Very curable. The temp needs to be at 85 degrees and it needs to have an airstone with the increase because of lack of oxygen. It very well could be Fin Rot too. If you can try to take a pic of it so we can see it. It sounds like either ICH or fin rot to me. natalie
Yes, the 2 gal is heated. I bought the 25 W heater that Rose recommended for it. I keep his temp at 78 (which is really 80-81 since smaller containers heat up more. I thought of ICH but there are *no* other white spots on him anywhere and he doesn't look like he was 'salted' at all.

Thanks ((Natalie))
 
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AesSedai

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Oh, no way would I keep Zen unheated Rose. If I did, then I haven't been paying much attention here, heh, and I surely have. He's been heated since the first day he went into the 2 gal (used a 50W heater until I got the 25 W one that you recommend)

Read the first few lines of your post and posted back since he's heated and it may change your thoughts. Going to read the rest of your post now

((Rose))
 

chickadee

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Nope, doesn't change a thing. My bettas have had ICH and they have never been unheated and they do not get the salted look until the disease is well advanced. He could still have ICH and you have just caught it early especially if you say he has more now than when you first saw them...sorry but my considered opinion is still that you are working with ICH. You can keep an eye on him for a day or so to see if he gets more of them, but I would advise against that course of treatment. Raising the temperature will not hurt him and while it may be a bit more challenging to you, it could prevent a problem of higher magnitude. If you are still concerned about the sediment, then do a major water change before you start the temperature increase (may not be a bad idea anyway) and that will cut the sediment in the water down even more.

Sorry,

Rose
 
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AesSedai

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This has little to do with the white spots I know.  Just wanted to share it anyway.

Monday I'm going to get him a 5 gallon tank.  I haven't cleaned the 10 gallon yet (the stray mom and kittens have had alot of my attention...see the Cats forum here) but I've put the 50W heater in it and raised the heat to 88 hoping to kill something, anything.  So it sits waiting for me.  Oh, live plants came out, went through a bleach dip and they're in a bucket w/a bubbler and bright light over it...wonder how long they'll last, heh.  No worries though, they were cheap.

I don't know how long it'll be before I get the 10 gallon clean and then cycled again.  I gave up on trying to keep the cycle going.  I can't stand the thought of putting Zen in there even with the carcasses of the cruds.  Water changes wouldn't get out all the dead bodies of cruds so....

I have to totally clean it all so need the 5 gallon for the lil guy so he can spread his fins some.  Of course, I'll be cycling the 5 gallon too so will either, hopefully, get the Spira..gosh, name escapes me and know it like I know my name...hm..well, that stuff or I'll have to continue the water changes every other day until it cycles.

I've changed the water in his 2 gal every day now for 3 days.  I'd like to continue doing it everyday.  I could care less about the work.  Just want him ok, better than ok.  Wondering though...

He isn't disturbed when I change his water because I go so slowly.  If I see the dark stripe down his body, I know he's upset, and I stop for awhile.  Is it safe to change his water daily for awhile instead of every other day?

The 2 gal is tall but too small and I hate that he's still in it
 
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AesSedai

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No need to apology Rose. I have NO problem doing for Zen whatever he needs. I also have no problem raising his heat. I'll reread your post to get this down exactly. Zen doesn't mind a flashlight. I've used one to look closely at him since I've had him. With that and my glasses I can see really well.

I don't think waiting a day or two would be wise. I'll wait until tonite though. If no more white spots (there are 5 now, still) tonite, I'll wait 12 hrs and check again and do that until this goes one way or the other.

TY ((Rose))

It's good to know that cold water isn't the only thing that causes ICH!
 

chickadee

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No, the ICH parasite is always in the water of all aquariums and no one really knows all the reasons that the parasite attacks the fish but cool water is one of the main ones. But there are others of that we are sure.

I would definitely recommend that you stay at the level of Amquel that is recommended by the manufacturer and not the petstore clerk though. The petstores do not have a vested interest in keeping your fish alive and the manufacturers have not got any reasons to reap rewards if your fish do not do well. In fact they lose money if someone becomes upset and quits the hobby because their fish die. Besides, they have done much research on the product before they put the instructions on the bottle and unless the water in your community is EXTREEMLY out of line for Nitrates and Nitrites and Ammonia you do not need extra doses of the neutralizing agents. (and you do not add them all at one time anyway) If your water in the aquarium is testing well with the recommended dose, disregard the heavy dosing totally.

Rose
 
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AesSedai

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Oh yeah. I've gone to the proper dose and won't ever do that stupid thing again. Hate chemicals, even the seemingly 'inert' which usually aren't.
 

LZ Floyd

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Sorry to hear of Zen's affliction, AesSedai.  You do have our best wishes for his return to good health.  Though I can't help you with advice wrt disease cures, I have a suggestion regarding the water changes and using water from your hot water tank. 

I stopped using hot tap water a long time ago due to the sediments that tend to get trapped in water heaters.  I mix my water (in 1 gallon spring water containers) using cold tap water and a dechlorinator and let it sit for 24 hours before use.  To bring the water in the one gallon containers up to tank temp, I put them in our kitchen's double sink and fill the sink with the hottest water the tank will provide.  Once the water in the containers rises to the right temp (between 84 and 86 degrees), it's ready for use.

When I first started doing this I found that the temp of the water in the one-gallon containers differed at the bottom from that at the top during the heating process (warm water rises, cold water sinks).  To get a truer temp reading of the water, then, the water in the container needed to be shaken up followed by a recheck of the temp.  The whole process of warming the conditioned water from room temperature to tank temp takes us about five minutes before the water can be used in the aquarium.  It takes me longer to get the tap water up to the appropriate tank temp than to warm the water as described.  And, I tend to think that hot tap water is further deoxygenated than cold tap water warmed to tank temp.

Mike
 
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AesSedai

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Wow, you know something Mike....

That is SO helpful, you don't know, and timely too. 

Water changes are rough because I'm lugging 2 gallons from the bathroom (less sediments from there it seems) to my office where Zen is.  2 gallons doesn't seem like a lot but to someone with a bad back, it is, and I clean the Ghost Shrimp tank (not a tank, a sorry 1 1/2 quart acrylic thing) and a snail tank (plastic jug) so I carry that water times 3 when I do water changes since I can only measure conditioner for 2 gal's (the math is hard, lol.  ssshhh, don't tell anyone) and throw out what isn't used.

I knew that Rose has her water prepared ahead of time in gallon jugs too and kept meaning to ask her how long it's safe to keep it like that w/the conditioner in it and I got stuck right there in my head.  It didn't dawn on me that I do water changes every other day so it's not going to get old!

TY sooo much! 

That is how I'll do it from now on.  I think of Zen's gills and the sediment alot. 

Zen thanks you too

p.s. Hoping it's just sediment in his fins...they are awfully big white dots
 

LZ Floyd

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Glad to be of help, AesSedai.  I always like to have a backup water supply in the event something goes whacky.  (I had a tank crack one night and the backup water supply came in handy then.)

They say that the dechlorinators act instantly.  They may act quickly, but, nothing acts instantly!  And having water sit in a container for a week isn't what I think would be called old.  So, why not prepare it ahead of time.  The one thing I make sure of, though, is to use containers that have only held spring or distilled water.

As for the math,  I use 1/8 of a tsp of the Aqua Plus per gallon.  It really helps that I have a set of cheap plastic measuring spoons to measure it out.  The Aqua Plus calls for 5ml per 10 gallons (or 10ml per 10 gallons if you want to use it to help the fish's coating, like aloe).  One tsp equals 5ml, IIRC, and 1/8 of a tsp equals 0.6ml.

As for lugging it around, one gallon of water weighs little over eight pounds.  If you've a bad back, hauling around 16 pounds of anything can get a bit unwieldy.

We're wishing you and Zen the best.  White spots, be gone!

Mike
 
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AesSedai

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You're right Mike! I can make up a weeks worth and have my boyfriend carry it for me all at one time rather than nickel and diming him to death.

My life seems easier already

TY for the...you know what....<g> I wrote it down in my fish notebook so I wouldn't forget
 

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I have about 60 gallons made up ahead of time. The aloe in the conditioner at this time of year never goes out of the water. I am like Mike and only mix in gallon Spring Water Jugs from when I have to use Spring Water in the summer due to the HIGH nitrates (over 80) so I have a plenty of jugs and while I am making water, I MAKE water because it is not my favorite thing to do. I have to wheel the stuff about the house on my walker seat and it gets to be messy.

I have a whole supply behind my couch in the living room and when I know that I am going to be changing water the next day I move enough back into the kitchen and leave it in front of the heat vent under the sink and by morning it does not have much further to go to be heated to the right temperature. (the same way that Mike does it.) It takes 15 gallons a week to change my tanks so I take the water for one tank and use it while the next tanks water is heating and so forth.

I am sure that handling a gallon at a time is going to be easier on your back and it is easier to control the flow into the tank.

Rose
 
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AesSedai

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Just checked Zen and still just the 5 white spots (actually you can tell that they're 3D, erm...that the white spots aren't flat but are raised like something sitting on his fins rather than in them, like he brushed across some of the sediment in the bottom and some stuck to his fins.

When I syphon the water back into his 2 gallon during a change (bucket is raised higher than the 2 gal), I hold it against the side so it's not too forceful.  Well, Zen loves it.  He takes his shower then, swimming under the stream over and over.

Hoping that tomorrows water change (let it go to the 2nd day this time) and his 'shower' will free the sediments out of his fins if that's what it is.  It should.  One more teeny tiny spot do I spot and it's temp raising time but so far...so good.

The way that you and Mike do your water changes will make a huge difference in my life.  Since you use a walker to carry yours, I know you know how great this is to me  

Living in Tampa with hurricane season every year (this year was SO quiet), I have tons of gallon water jugs since getting water is priority when a hurricane looms so I'm good to go (everytime I say that I think of the Taco Bell commercial...good to go, lol)

Thank you ((Rose))
 
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I'm happy to report to while it took a couple of water changes (and Zen showering under the 'waterfall' when I syphon water back into his 2 gal) to rid Zen of the white clingons. He's now free of them and it wasn't finrot!

I'm thrilled

((Everyone))
 

0morrokh

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I'm so glad he's doing better!
 

chickadee

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I love that he likes to shower! For fish that really like to have still water, they do love the bubbles and newly poured clean water, don't they?

Rose
 

LZ Floyd

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Great News!
 
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