Is this possibly gill flukes?

Gregs76

So a few of you might have seen the thread I posted last week about a bad case of ich that has decimated half of my tank... I’ve basically treated with Esha Exit two times now, along with Esha 2000 for any secondary infections. There’s no more ich visible on any of my fish, however I am a bit worried about my laetacara, who still don’t look good. The thing is, is I am wondering if the ich was the primary infection, or more of a secondary infection after sometime else?

Before I ever saw any white spot, the first thing I noticed that something was wrong was when my two angels stopped eating and became a bit more listless. Then I noticed their fins clamped, and then came the flicking and rubbing, and both started showing frayed and damaged pectoral fins. I didn’t know what was going on, so I did a big wc and then the next day I saw that the whole tank was covered in spots. My female angel ended up dying the next day, along with half of my tetra population, and the bad part was that before she died, it looked like she had bloody streaks/patches underneath her pectoral fins, which alarmed me, but I was hoping that she would respond to the ich treatment. Before she died she looked terrible, lost a lot of her colour and was gasping at the surface, etc. The ich seems to be visibly gone now, however my three laetacara are still not right. They are all sitting at the bottom of the tank, and the two younger ones are breathing very rapidly while they sit listless, and I notice that they seem to be flicking themselves against the sand or the wall of the tank occasionally? One doesn’t seem to want to eat still and looks like she has lost some weight. They also occasionally look like they are spitting, and I have read that this is a common occurrence with gill flukes in particular. Does this sound like my assumption about flukes is possibly correct, is it possible that a fluke outbreak could’ve possibly brought on the ich that I was dealing with? Today is the final day of my second dose of treatment for the ich, so with that along with the Esha 2000 I would have hoped for everyone in my tank to have looked better, but I have ordered some prazI to treat for flukes after I finish’s this treatment, run some carbon and do a big wc. Any thoughts?
 

Gregs76

Okay, so I just got home and all of my laetacara came out and ate a little bit when I fed them, but then my big, older male went crazy flicking himself off of the sand, then off of the sides of the tank, and then off of the big piece of bogwood, like he is trying to scratch his gills. Then he's just sat on the substrate now, but he doesn't have the rapid breathing and flared gills like the other two. I'm getting a bit more concerned. No physical signs of any ich left on any of the fish though. I'm thinking that this must be some kind of gill infection/parasite?
 

Fishies99

How long did you treat the ich for? Ich usually attacks gill tissue first before showing any signs of white spots.
 

PascalKrypt

What Fishies99 says, ich (and other protozoans) are visible on the body of the fish when the infection is very severe. When it is mild and the fish are strong enough to fight it off, there will be a very minor infestation in the gills. This can still irritate them and cause flashing and lowers their immune system a bit.
So no spots =/= no ich.

That being said, if you treated and are not satisfied with the results, there is no harm in trying to treat for parasites (not sure though if prazipro is a heavy med or not, I have no experience with it). You can also try soaking food in garlic on top of that.
 

Gregs76

Hi, thanks for the replies. So I did two full doses of the ich treatment, the second one ending last night (although the instructions say that for severe cases you can dose an additional two days, which I might do). Since I am using this treatment alongside the Esha 2000, which is usually a good, broad-spec med (Ethacridine lactate, copper sulfate, proflavine hemisulfate) I was hoping that I would see a lot of improvment. The prazI is basically the Esha Gdex that I am getting, and it says "eSHa gdex® and eSHa EXIT® - AntI Whitespot Treatment and/or eSHa 2000® - Fungus, Finrot and Bacteria Treatment or eSHa HEXAMITA® - Discus Disease Treatment can safely be used in combination to provide you with a powerful and broadly effective tool for curing your fish." so that makes it sound like I can start treating with the Gdex without running carbon after the two meds I am using now from what I understand? All the info I can find about prazI say it's not a heavy med and that it's filter-safe, and safe to use with shrimp, inverts, etc.

How long did you treat the ich for? Ich usually attacks gill tissue first before showing any signs of white spots.
I know this, and this is why I am wondering if it's possible that since the gills are attacked first, if they can be the place where something still lingers after the ich is visibly gone, ie: a secondary infection, etc.? Kind of like how some of us can get a common cold, but then possibly end up with a sinus infection. The rapid breathing and flashing make me feel almost certain that it's a gill issue, but is it possible that it's just damage caused by the ich, or is it still a good idea to treat for gill flukes/parasites?
 

coralbandit

You need to keep the meds for ich in force for 7 days after the last spot .
Less and ich may not be gone ..
PrazI is safe so no worries with it but I would dose the ich meds myself ..
 

Gregs76

You need to keep the meds for ich in force for 7 days after the last spot .
Less and ich may not be gone ..
PrazI is safe so no worries with it but I would dose the ich meds myself ..
Okay, well I will continue to dose with Exit for another couple of days, as the directions say it is perfectly safe to do so, and I will treat with the Gdex (prazi) when it arrives (tomorrow), and hopefully this will help clear everything. It's been about 5 days since there have been no visible spots. My laetacara don't seem to be flashing so far today, but they are still breathing rapidly and showing rapid gill movement. At least they seem to be a eating a little and exploring a little bit more again.
 

Gregs76

Hi, I am resurrecting this thread as I am still having a small issue with my laetacara. One of the three died last week, the worst looking one out of the lot. Everyone else that survived the initial ich outbreak seems to be doing okay, except one of the other laetacara is still breathing quite heavily and her gills are opening quite wide even After treating with the prazi, everyone seemed to go back to normal except for this fish, and so I have started a second treatment of prazI to try and squash this.

So my questions are basically could this be gill flukes or something else that the prazI won't really effectively treat? Other than this they are back to acting totally normal but it's the flaring of the gills on this one fish that bothers me. It's also a bit strange because my big, male laetacara has completely improved visually and behaviourally, however when I dose the tank with prazi, he stared flashing and flicking himself off decor, so I am wondering if this means there is still something there that's irritating his gills or if it's just a side effect of the meds? Or I was wondering if the severe case if ich and whatever else I was dealing with at the beginning could have just damaged the gills on these fish more severely, and if it's possible that it's permanent? Does anyone have an ideas?
 

PascalKrypt

Hi, I am resurrecting this thread as I am still having a small issue with my laetacara. One of the three died last week, the worst looking one out of the lot. Everyone else that survived the initial ich outbreak seems to be doing okay, except one of the other laetacara is still breathing quite heavily and her gills are opening quite wide even After treating with the prazi, everyone seemed to go back to normal except for this fish, and so I have started a second treatment of prazI to try and squash this.

So my questions are basically could this be gill flukes or something else that the prazI won't really effectively treat? Other than this they are back to acting totally normal but it's the flaring of the gills on this one fish that bothers me. It's also a bit strange because my big, male laetacara has completely improved visually and behaviourally, however when I dose the tank with prazi, he stared flashing and flicking himself off decor, so I am wondering if this means there is still something there that's irritating his gills or if it's just a side effect of the meds? Or I was wondering if the severe case if ich and whatever else I was dealing with at the beginning could have just damaged the gills on these fish more severely, and if it's possible that it's permanent? Does anyone have an ideas?
Could be that the outbreak was pretty severe and there has been some damage to their gills that takes longer to fix.. or that won't quite heal.
If they respond poorly to the meds but were doing fine before I would immediately stop dosing. Do a large water change to clear the meds, move the fish you want to treat to a QT and do it there.
 

coralbandit

Not all gill injuries heal .
So if the one still breathing fast was worse off then the male who is fine now permanent damage is a possibility .
I can't speak to fishes reaction to meds again ? There really should not have been one ?
 

Gregs76

The male that started flicking off the decor after I dosed the tank has been fine in general, it was just about 15 mins after dosing yesterday he flicked himself off the plants and the wood a few times, but hasn't done it again. It was just a bit weird, so I assumed that maybe the meds re-irritated his not-100%-healed gills? The one who is still breathing a bit heavy and who's gills are flaring a bit hasn't flicked and has been acting otherwise normal. If her gills have been permanently damaged, does that mean that it's only a matter of time for her, or can a fish live relatively normal with some damage to their gills, if you know? And again, params are completely normal as I have been checking since this outbreak last month, so it's deffo not water quality related.
 

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