Is This Pop-eye?

Pameliacc

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Could this be pop-eye?
A few days ago one of my dwarf rainbows got stuck in a piece of cholo wood. He injured his tail fin and had an abrasion proximal to his dorsal fin. I was suggested that I use Melafix and Pimafix for fin health. I did so for two days and stopped because I noticed that a different dwarf rainbow had an eye popping out.
There have been a two recent changes in my tank though. I started using pressurized CO2 two weeks ago and I was concerned that was the problem but, all my fish were acting normal and without distress. I did a water change anyways. Four days ago I started feeding them a freeze dried fortified food instead of the usual frozen brine shrimp.
IMG_4146.jpg
 

CheshireKat

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Kiks said:
Have you checked your water parameters? Usually popeye is caused by poor water quality.
It's also caused by injury and/or bacterial infections. Since he was hurt, this is probably the cause.
Wait, this is a different fish than the injured one? Hm.

Yes, it's Popeye. You can do Epsom salt baths, a tablespoon per 5 gallons or about 1-1.5 teaspoons per 1 gallon for no more than 15 minutes to reduce swelling.
If there's a bacterial issue, try Seachem Paraguard. You can do hour long dips with it. Although with the injured fish, I'd just treat the tank since that'll help him ward off infection too and might help other fish in case something else is going on. I've used it with snails and plants and it doesn't affect the biological bacteria/filtration, although you don't have to take my word for it.
 
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Pameliacc

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Kiks said:
Have you checked your water parameters? Usually popeye is caused by poor water quality.
Yes I checked the water parameters and all are within a healthy range. The only other thing that I can think of is that I did have a PH shift that day (while trying to get my pressurized co2 adjusted) and maybe that was the cause?

CheshireKat said:
It's also caused by injury and/or bacterial infections. Since he was hurt, this is probably the cause.
Wait, this is a different fish than the injured one? Hm.

Yes, it's Popeye. You can do Epsom salt baths, a tablespoon per 5 gallons or about 1-1.5 teaspoons per 1 gallon for no more than 15 minutes to reduce swelling.
If there's a bacterial issue, try Seachem Paraguard. You can do hour long dips with it. Although with the injured fish, I'd just treat the tank since that'll help him ward off infection too and might help other fish in case something else is going on. I've used it with snails and plants and it doesn't affect the biological bacteria/filtration, although you don't have to take my word for it.
 
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Pameliacc

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CheshireKat said:
Hm. You quoted my post but didn't write anything, so I'm confused
I was actually looking this morning to see if anybody had posted a reply. I must’ve accidentally hit “reply”, sorry
 

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Pameliacc said:
I was actually looking this morning to see if anybody had posted a reply. I must’ve accidentally hit “reply”, sorry
ah, okay. Have you tried treating them? Any changes?
 

LeahsTank

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It is only one eye, so most likely it is an injury. I’d just keep the water pristine and fresh until it clears up. But keep an eye out (pun intended) for secondary infections.
 
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Pameliacc

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LeahsTank said:
It is only one eye, so most likely it is an injury. I’d just keep the water pristine and fresh until it clears up. But keep an eye out (pun intended) for secondary infections.
Would you do salt bath to take down the swelling?

CheshireKat said:
ah, okay. Have you tried treating them? Any changes?
I was going to do a salt bath tonight. I had to order the ParaGard because our LFS doesn’t carry it
 

LeahsTank

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Pameliacc said:
Would you do salt bath to take down the swelling?
It wouldn’t hurt to get others’ advice, but I wouldn’t bother with stressing him with a net. Unless of course, he develops an infection.
 

CheshireKat

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Pameliacc said:
Would you do salt bath to take down the swelling?
You don't have to, but if there's already an internal infection or something going on, clean water and time won't necessarily do anything to help, and the eye is a sensitive thing. If you don't know if there's an infection, you can't watch for it. I personally wouldn't risk it, but you know your fish better. If you'd rather not do a salt bath and think it'll do more harm than good, then don't. It's your judgment call.
 

hanra85

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Unilateral is usually from an injury, I've seen far worse but keep an eye on it, rainbows do like to dart around might have smacked himself on something... If it was both I would suspect bacterial, but as it is I'd just do an extra water change, give him good water quality. Likely wouldn't hurt to do melafix or salt or something, just nothing too drastic.
 

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hanra85 said:
If it was both I would suspect bacterial
Are you implying one eye can't have a bacterial infection?
My concern is only that if it's not an injury and already a bacterial infection, waiting may not help. I don't like issues concerning the eyes and that's probably why I'm more about acting to treat it immediately.
 
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Pameliacc

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Just an update. I moved the little guy with the popped eye into our hospital tank 6 days ago. During that time I have been dosing the hosp tank with Salt, melafix, and paragaurd without much improvement. He is still eating but his eye looks terrible. Will his eye ever recess back? Yesterday I dosed the hosp tank and his food with kanaplex and tomorrow I will repeat.
The other tank looks fine and all fish are eating and acting normal. I do plan on dosing my main tank as well with Kanaplex, focus, and garlic guard . Everything I have read suggests that this combo should be safe for plants and shouldn't affect the good bacteria in my tank.
 

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Pameliacc said:
Salt, melafix, and paragaurd without much improvement. He is still eating but his eye looks terrible. Will his eye ever recess back?
It should, unless there's an internal infection. Kanaplex should take care of that. Maybe if damage of some sort occurred, it won't go down, but I haven't seen that so far in my limited second-hand experience and knowledge. You're using Epsom salt, right?
 

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Dave125g said:
Popeye is usually caused by an internal bacterial infection. Gotta treat it with antibiotics.
Yes, but with usually being the keyword there. I've helped someone treat their fish's Popeye with just Epsom salt and Paraguard; the eye seemed to have gotten an external infection probably from an injury that became very infected. Without knowing what's going on, I don't like to suggest antibiotics immediately unless with dropsy.
Not disagreeing or anything, just adding on to this. People seem to either go natural with water changes and/or natural remedies or to the other spectrum, jumping straight to heavy-duty treatments like antibiotics, which is concerning to me.
 

LeahsTank

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CheshireKat said:
It should, unless there's an internal infection. Kanaplex should take care of that. Maybe if damage of some sort occurred, it won't go down, but I haven't seen that so far in my limited second-hand experience and knowledge. You're using Epsom salt, right?
Yes. Make sure you are using epsom salt, not aquarium salt.
 

CheshireKat

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Yes! The salts are only removed through water changes and will build up if not properly removed regularly.
 
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Pameliacc

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CheshireKat said:
It's also caused by injury and/or bacterial infections. Since he was hurt, this is probably the cause.
Wait, this is a different fish than the injured one? Hm.

Yes, it's Popeye. You can do Epsom salt baths, a tablespoon per 5 gallons or about 1-1.5 teaspoons per 1 gallon for no more than 15 minutes to reduce swelling.
If there's a bacterial issue, try Seachem Paraguard. You can do hour long dips with it. Although with the injured fish, I'd just treat the tank since that'll help him ward off infection too and might help other fish in case something else is going on. I've used it with snails and plants and it doesn't affect the biological bacteria/filtration, although you don't have to take my word for it.
Would I use the same measurements of Epson salt in my hospital tank since he’s not just getting a salt bath?
 

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I don't think you should add the Epsom salt directly into the quarantine tank...I've only heard of using Epsom salt as baths for no more than 15 minutes. So I did some research and according to this site, : "Epsom salt may be used to increase water hardness in freshwater aquariums. Harder water contains more dissolved magnesium and calcium than soft water."
Epsom salt may be used to increase water hardness in freshwater aquariums. Harder water contains more dissolved magnesium and calcium than soft water. Some species of fish require hard water, while others require soft. The degree of hardness impacts the tank's pH. Hard water is more alkaline, soft water is more acidic. Water hardness is expressed in the amount of calcium carbonate (CaCO3) it contains. According to Aquatic Community, "adding 1 milliliter of [epsom salt] per 10 liters of water will increase the permanent hardness by roughly 70 mg/L CaCO3." Determine the optimum pH and water hardness levels for the type of fish in your aquarium before altering your tank's chemistry. Abrupt shifts in pH levels can stress, even kill fish. Avoid a change in pH greater than 0.3 in a 24-hour period.
Which, to my knowledge of such things, makes perfect sense.
"Third, never add espom salt directly to the tank. Remove some tank water and dissolve the desired amount into another container. Then slowly add it to the tank...drops at a time since you could dramatically change the water chemistry thus shocking the fish."
Epsom Salt is perfectly fine to use in your tank, but precautions should be made when doing so.

First, know what the GH of the tank is before adding it. The GH kits sold for aquarium use test for magnesium and calcium. Epsom salt will only contribute the Magnesium part of GH.

Second, your fish should also be considered here. All fish have a range of GH they prefer. Knowing it and the water's GH are critical to see if you even have room to add any. Tetras like low GH and Mollies like high GH for example.

Third, never add espom salt directly to the tank. Remove some tank water and dissolve the desired amount into another container. Then slowly add it to the tank...drops at a time since you could dramatically change the water chemistry thus shocking the fish.

Fourth, I don't recommend this. If your fish are happy with your water and matches close to what they prefer...don't mess with it. Plants only need trace amounts of certain minerals and elements. Clean water and tanks are the best "supplement" you can have for them.

I intentionally did not offer doses since I don't promote it in most cases.

I hope this makes sense and Thea is absolutely correct in that if you use RO water GH via Epsom Salt and/or Calcium Chloride is essential. Most other cases do not require it.

If you don't want to take your fish out and do a separate bath treatment, I suppose you could add the Epsom salt to the QT (after a large-ish water change to remove aquarium salt), do the treatment, and then do another large-ish water change to remove the majority of those salts, but... I personally would just do a separate bath treatment so I don't have to worry about all that.
 
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Pameliacc

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CheshireKat said:
I don't think you should add the Epsom salt directly into the quarantine tank...I've only heard of using Epsom salt as baths for no more than 15 minutes. So I did some research and according to this site, : "Epsom salt may be used to increase water hardness in freshwater aquariums. Harder water contains more dissolved magnesium and calcium than soft water."

Which, to my knowledge of such things, makes perfect sense.
And on here, , "Third, never add espom salt directly to the tank. Remove some tank water and dissolve the desired amount into another container. Then slowly add it to the tank...drops at a time since you could dramatically change the water chemistry thus shocking the fish."



If you don't want to take your fish out and do a separate bath treatment, I suppose you could add the Epsom salt to the QT (after a large-ish water change to remove aquarium salt), do the treatment, and then do another large-ish water change to remove the majority of those salts, but... I personally would just do a separate bath treatment so I don't have to worry about all that.
OK well sounds like I better just do a dip and not add any salt to my QT tank. Thanks for all the help...
 

LeahsTank

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Pameliacc said:
Since I used the wrong salt (aquarium salt), should I do a water change on my hospital tank before adding the Epsom salt?
A water change never hurts. I don’t know if it is necessary, but I would, just to be sure.
 
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Pameliacc

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LeahsTank said:
A water change never hurts. I don’t know if it is necessary, but I would, just to be sure.
Definitely been doing a lot of water changes lately.
Unfortunately nothing that I’m doing seems to be helping this little guy. Feeling a little guilty that I waited so long to do his epsom salt dip. He’s definitely not as spunky today, nor is he eating as well.
 

LeahsTank

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Pameliacc said:
Definitely been doing a lot of water changes lately.
Unfortunately nothing that I’m doing seems to be helping this little guy. Feeling a little guilty that I waited so long to do his epsom salt dip. He’s definitely not as spunky today, nor is he eating as well.
Sorry he’s not feeling better. Since water changes and epsom salt isn’t making a difference, you should consider an antibiotic. I’m not sure which one. Hopefully, someone else will know better. It is possible that an injury has caused an infection.
 

CheshireKat

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Pameliacc said:
Definitely been doing a lot of water changes lately.
Unfortunately nothing that I’m doing seems to be helping this little guy. Feeling a little guilty that I waited so long to do his epsom salt dip. He’s definitely not as spunky today, nor is he eating as well.
Can you go over how you've been treating him? How often are you doing the Epsom salt baths, how long is each bath, and how long alhave you been doing them?
How long did you treat with Paraguard? How did you use/dose/treat with it?
How long did you treat with Kanamycin (Kanaplex)? How did you use/dose/treat with it?
Did you do water changes during these treatments? How much and often?

Can you upload some new photos of the fish? By the way, how are your other fish faring?
 
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Pameliacc

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CheshireKat said:
Can you go over how you've been treating him? How often are you doing the Epsom salt baths, how long is each bath, and how long alhave you been doing them?
How long did you treat with Paraguard? How did you use/dose/treat with it?
How long did you treat with Kanamycin (Kanaplex)? How did you use/dose/treat with it?
Did you do water changes during these treatments? How much and often?

Can you upload some new photos of the fish? By the way, how are your other fish faring?
Main tank - 7/30 - 8/1 Dosed with metafix and primafix and did daily water changes. All dosing were done by directions on the bottles.

8/2 Gave Popeye (I don't name my fish normally but it fits ) an Epsom salt bath. 1.5 teaspoons/gallon for 15 min.

Main tank - 8/2 - 8/9 Started using Paraguard with Metafix in the main tank with daily water changes of 20-30%. All water parameters in the main tank have been in normal range. During this time all fins on injured fish are healing nicely and still look great.

QT - 8/3 Moved my little Popeye to the hospital tank. I dosed the QT with paraguard and metapix daily. and did daily water changes. I also put aquarium salt in the tank (2 teaspoons). I was stupidly thinking he was getting his salt bath..... This treatment continued until from 8/3-8/7 . Also did daily 30% water changes only if parameters were showing any unhealthy levels, otherwise water changes were done every other day.

QT - 8/8 Did a water change (50%).Stared Kanaplex in water column (dosed according to package). Put 1 scoop of kanaplex in his food as well (he only ate a small portion of the medicated food and I froze the rest). Continued using paraguard

QT - 8/9 Gave Popeye a Epsom salt bath 1.5 teaspoon/gallon for 15 min. Did a 50% water change. Started Kanaplex, Metroplex, Focus, and Garlic gaurd for feeding both the main tank and the QT.(dosing below). Also added 2 scoops of each metroplex and Kanaplex to the water column in the QT. Dosed Metafix also (to keep his fins and scales healthy).
I might not treat Popeye's food today since the water column is getting treatment every other day. I would like him to keep eating at this point.
The fish in the main tank are doing well and seem healthy. I will add photos of them too.

Medication dosing for food
Focus 2 scoops
Metroplex 1 scoop
Kanaplex 1 scoop
Garlic Guard enough to make it taste good.

Anything else that I should be doing?
 

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LeahsTank

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Ouch! That looks horrible! It makes my eye hurt. Poor guy. I don’t have much experience with pop eye that bad, but I doubt his eye will get better. I’ve heard fish can live a full healthy life without an eye, so it isn’t a death sentence. You’ll just have to be able to keep that water clean to avoid more infection. Hopefully someone will come by and help you figure out the best move forward.
 

Feohw

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I really hate popeye. My female betta is blind in one eye and partially blind in the other due to it. I nearly lost her when she went off food. Clean water and myxazin helped mine out. Poor guy.
 

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Pameliacc said:
Started Kanaplex, Metroplex, Focus, and Garlic gaurd for feeding both the main tank and the QT.(dosing below).
Is there a reason you're feeding these to the main tank? They've healed and are healthy now. If the issues you had previously with them have cleared up and the fish are acting and eating normally and look healthy, there's no reason to treat them again with more meds, especially since they're getting it internally, so I'm concerned for their internal organ health. You don't want to expose them to these medications unnecessarily or longer than needed.

His eye looks really bad, worse than before. It looks more like damage, maybe tissue damage or something... I'm not a vet. If it were my fish, I'd want a vet's opinion at this point. I hope there's no damage to eyesight--does it seem like he can still see?

To clarify, have you been or will you be dosing Kanaplex every 48 hours?
Did you stop using Paraguard?
Are you doing Epsom salt baths more than once a day daily?

It is possible that he might have a different kind of bacterial infection. Kanaplex and Metroplex treat gram-negative and some gram-positive bacteria. If its infection is caused by a different bacteria, then those won't be affective. But we really can't know for sure without a swab and lab analysis or treating with different meds. If these two don't work after treating every 48 hours for a week, I think Maracyn/Erithomycin or Maracyn-2 might be options. I just don't want you to keep treating with meds blindly.

It's also possible he has permanent damage and no infection. Or even a tumor behind the eye.

I'm assuming you mean Melafix, not Metafix.

Other than the eye, how is the fish behaving?
 
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Pameliacc

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Popeye died Monday night. Thank you for all the great help and feedback ️
 

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