Is my little endler dying of old age?

kitsuwn
  • #1
hey guys - so i have a 6 gallon tank with 3 male endlers and 1 female betta. they have all been in the tank for about 2 months now and everyone is happily swimming around, playing and eating. however, the past week or so one of my little endlers (ribbon fins) has been much less active. he tends to hover around the bottom of the tank by himself and isn't interested in playing with his two friends anymore. his colours have become a little more dull and he only comes up to grab some of the sinking pellets i give them before going back down and hovering around the bottom. a few times i have thought he was dead, but alas, he starts to move around when i tap the glass.

is he perhaps getting old and coming to the end of his life? i didn't ask the lady when i bought them how old they were, but it seems that the other two are younger as they are so much more active. the parameters are 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrite and around 10ppm nitrate, however i am going to do a water change today of around 30-50% as today is my water change day anyway. the tank is fully planted with live plants and has driftwood and rocks, as well as a nerite snail (squishy) and some ramshorn snails and malaysian trumpet snails which i am trying to breed.
 

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airfix2
  • #2
Idk, but it looks like old age to me. How old is the little guy?
 

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kitsuwn
  • Thread Starter
  • #3
Idk, but it looks like old age to me. How old is the little guy?
i don't know exactly, just that i've had him in my care for about 2 months.
 
airfix2
  • #4
Might be that the endler is being bullied by the others. Try adding another and see if it gets better. Btw tank looks great from what I’ve seen in the video
 
Flyfisha
  • #5
Hi kitsuwn,
Nice tank.

In Australia we do not have any of the pure bred endlers. All endlers in Australia are sold as endler guppies because they are mixed blood.

What you have is a single fish ( ribbon fins ) from a line of endler guppy that is close to what is called a Japanese (liar tail ) blue. And two slightly larger endlers with more guppy blood in them .

What you call playing is dancing for dominance. The stronger of the 3 would be the one to dance for a female ( mate) if one should swim close . The weakest or smaller is being submissive. It’s not going to get its stare of food. It’s under stress not old age. Loss of colour and bottom sitting.

I would also suggest adding more males to spread the bullying.
You could get more of the smaller endler /guppies .
The ones with less guppy blood will be less aggressive and less likely to nip fins.

As you have limited space in the 6 gallon / 22 litre consider asking the seller if you could return the aggressive large males for ones that have more endler blood. Even returning for no money is better than what is happening slowly in the tank today, on video.

I think 6 endler guppies would be maximum with the betta ?

Endler's Livebearer Fancy Guppy Male | Arizona Aquatic Gardens
 
RayClem
  • #6
Bettas normally get along well with small fish who have short fins. However, they may harass fish with longer fins like guppies and endlers. It is part of their territorial nature.

Most livebearers live relatively short lives. They multiply rapidly, but live 2-3 years at most. Since giving live birth is stressful for the females, they often die before the males.

A couple of months is pretty short unless your endler was already old when you got it. While possible, it is not that likely. lt may be that the fish is having difficulty adapting to the new water conditions. Endlers like hard, somewhat alkaline water and higher temperatures than many freshwater fish.

Since most of your endlers seem to be doing well, I suspect the one specific endler is being harassed either by the betta or the other male endlers.
 

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kitsuwn
  • Thread Starter
  • #7
Hi kitsuwn,
Nice tank.

In Australia we do not have any of the pure bred endlers. All endlers in Australia are sold as endler guppies because they are mixed blood.

What you have is a single fish ( ribbon fins ) from a line of endler guppy that is close to what is called a Japanese (liar tail ) blue. And two slightly larger endlers with more guppy blood in them .

What you call playing is dancing for dominance. The stronger of the 3 would be the one to dance for a female ( mate) if one should swim close . The weakest or smaller is being submissive. It’s not going to get its stare of food. It’s under stress not old age. Loss of colour and bottom sitting.

I would also suggest adding more males to spread the bullying.
You could get more of the smaller endler /guppies .
The ones with less guppy blood will be less aggressive and less likely to nip fins.

As you have limited space in the 6 gallon / 22 litre consider asking the seller if you could return the aggressive large males for ones that have more endler blood. Even returning for no money is better than what is happening slowly in the tank today, on video.

I think 6 endler guppies would be maximum with the betta ?

Endler's Livebearer Fancy Guppy Male | Arizona Aquatic Gardens
i should have mentioned that there were actually originally 6 in the tank, however a few days after adding the betta she killed one of them and the other two disappeared some more days after that (i never found their bodies and assumed that she killed them too). she hasn't touched these three at all, so i don't know if she was just establishing territory or if they were harassing her, not sure.

should i get another 3 endlers? i can't take the other two back since the store is so far away, however another store near me now does sell endlers (and for a little cheaper). the reason i chose the endlers was because they were a bit smaller than the guppies and they didn't have the long fins. didn't know that there weren't pure endlers here in australia!

Bettas normally get along well with small fish who have short fins. However, they may harass fish with longer fins like guppies and endlers. It is part of their territorial nature.

Most livebearers live relatively short lives. They multiply rapidly, but live 2-3 years at most. Since giving live birth is stressful for the females, they often die before the males.

A couple of months is pretty short unless your endler was already old when you got it. While possible, it is not that likely. lt may be that the fish is having difficulty adapting to the new water conditions. Endlers like hard, somewhat alkaline water and higher temperatures than many freshwater fish.

Since most of your endlers seem to be doing well, I suspect the one specific endler is being harassed either by the betta or the other male endlers.
i haven't seen her harassing him, but then again, i'm not watching the tank all day and she may do different things when i'm not watching. at night when the lights are off, i sometimes see him hovering in the middle with the other two sleeping.

the pH is at 7, but i'm not sure how hard the water is as i don't have a test for that. the temperature is at 25 degrees celsius.
 
Flyfisha
  • #8
My belief is the more endler blood a fish has the less you have to worry about hardness/ minerals.
True guppies struggle in my towns water supply ( lake Googong ) but Aussie endlers are fine. This is a widely held belief in my local club.

Now that you mention the loss of other fish it seems likely this female will not tolerate fast moving brightly coloured fish long term. Perhaps thIs tank will never work with that female?
 
kitsuwn
  • Thread Starter
  • #9
pw
My belief is the more endler blood a fish has the less you have to worry about hardness/ minerals.
True guppies struggle in my towns water supply ( lake Googong ) but Aussie endlers are fine. This is a widely held belief in my local club.

Now that you mention the loss of other fish it seems likely this female will not tolerate fast moving brightly coloured fish long term. Perhaps thIs tank will never work with that female?
yeah, maybe... are there any other fish that aren't as brightly coloured that could go in there and get along with the endlers? i considered white cloud minnows, but i read that they are cold water fish.

i do have a 3 gallon tank (14 litres) with 3 male guppies in it. would they work in there or would the endlers nip the guppy fins/guppies eat the endlers?
 
Flyfisha
  • #10
White clouds survive outside in an Australian summer and also in a frozen ponds in the southern highlands. Sure people say they are cold water because they were originally from mountain streams in China. Probably not the best choice for a tropical tank but nether is a tiny tub in full Australian sun ?

Pencil fish ?

I can’t advise on keeping any fish in a 3gallon / 14 litres. I have lots of small tanks but don’t bother picking up 3 gallon tanks from the rubbish dump recycling shed( green shed) They are more difficult to keep stable than slightly bigger tanks.
I don’t recommend you add more to the 3 gallon not of any species/ mixed species even.

If you want my opinion 6 gallons is a good size for a betta on its own long term.

image.jpg
Don’t forget fish mature ,as they grow older they might get less likely to put up with others?

You have my permission to get another tank at some time.
 

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RayClem
  • #11
One small fish that should get along well with a betta is the Ember Tetra. They are brilliantly colored, but because the color is solid and the fins are short, it should not trigger aggression in your betta. However, with a six gallon tank, you might just consider keeping the betta alone. If you were to move up to a 10 gallon or larger tank, then you might consider adding a few other fish.
 
kansas
  • #12
They call them Siamese fighting fish for a reason. I would keep a betta alone in a 6 gallon tank.
 
kitsuwn
  • Thread Starter
  • #13
alright, until i can figure out what to do with the 3 endlers, i'll just have to keep them in the betta tank for now. i currently don't have the space for anything bigger. my newest tank is a 6.6 gallon (25 litres) that was bought as an upgrade for my male betta who was originally living in the 3 gallon (14 litres). i can't put them in there with him because he is quite aggressive and killed all the shrimp i originally added with him some months back.

i have been making sure to keep an eye on the endlers today to exactly see how they interact with eachother. the two bigger ones tend to spend most of their time together, either just picking at algae or hovering around together. they have a little chase, but it isn't relentless from what i can tell. little ribbon fins does join in every now and then, and i do see him up there with the bigger guys swimming around, hovering and picking algae. however, he does also spend a significant amount of time by himself at the bottom or mid level behind the driftwood or between some plants.

he does eat. when i fed everyone today i made sure to watch and see if he was eating, and he did get about 4 or so little micro pellets. he also scavenged around in the substrate to eat up anything he may have missed as usual. celeste (my betta) seems to be completely ignoring them. she's a little piggy and gobbles up whatever endler food she can get. she just swims around during the day, doing normal betta things and (for the most part) pays no attention to the endlers.

i did add some ramshorn snails into all three of the tank's today to clean up some of the algae and to just keep the little ecosystems going. will be getting some more maylasian trumpet snails eventually.

i have decided not to add anything more (fish-wise) to the 6 gallon. i'll keep an eye on things to the best of my abilities.
 
emeraldking
  • #14
What makes you think, that endler male is old?
 
kitsuwn
  • Thread Starter
  • #15
What makes you think, that endler male is old?
just because he was losing his colour and not being as active - things that i've experienced with past bettas in their old age.
 
emeraldking
  • #16
They can also change color by mood. So, if they are in a different state of mood, they can become more pale or more intense colored. if they feel threatened or the water parameters become bad, they'll become pale. If they're in an excited mood, the colors become more intense.
 

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