Is Cycling a tank useless

Sorry to hear you are disappointed.

Myself, I'm having a great time wondering around in the forest, digging stuff up.

I'm not in a hurry to come to conclusions and simplify matters into the 7 steps to happiness. Or the ultimate guide in fish keeping.

As a matter of fact, I lack the ambition.

Not disappointed, just curious

Given the research on these microorganisms, what can we update in our approach to cycling? Is there a way we can culture a specific group of nitrifiers, or would they just grow naturally?

A lot of research have shown that archaea is more prevalent in low ammonia concentrations, even in freshwater. For example: [1] [2], soil: [3] and more can be found on google scholar

Given the ammonia concentrations we add to our fish tanks, which type would be dominant? Are we growing different microbial communities if we dose to 5ppm+ vs very low <1ppm? I've always cycled with very very small amounts of food which is even less than 0.5ppm and so far it's worked well for me (I also don't feed very much once fish are added).

One option (This is actually what I do):
- Use concentrated HCL and aeration to remove the KH from the water and reduce the pH to 7.0, but keep the KH at 3-4 degrees.
- Add GH as needed to increase hardness for the hardwater cichlids to help their kidneys function.
- Add salinity in small amount to detoxify nitrite (1 teaspoon per 10 gallons) and not harm plants.
- Use fast growing weeds (I mean plants) and appropriate light and inject C02.
- Add fish
- Aerate the tank well and keep oxygen at 8 ppm

- Don't worry about ammonia and nitrites since at 7.0 pH toxicity requires very high levels of ammonia and the salt protects the fish from nitrites.

At first lots of algae grows, but in time, this dissipates. I am tracking Rudd to understand that there is this next level for the cycle as the tank matures where new stuff happens. Cool!

The typical cycle that we see is because the fish are in an unnatural environment where they are swimming in their own waste water, and the water has been engineered for humans rather than fish and the water may lack the proper amount of KH, GH, oxygen and salinity.

Wow, that's very novel to me. Adding HCL then GH then salt then plants and co2? Sounds crazy lol, but if it works then that's interesting. With this method, fish are added on day 1? Or is there a waiting period?

Would be interested to see other people's approaches as well

 

Would be interested to see other people's approaches as well

It's already been conceded that Cycling a Tank is not useless. My method is simple, effective and well regarded. Add seeded media from an established tank along with a few fish. Or better still, bottled ammonia in small quantities over a few weeks with no fish, as you have found to work well. Both ways work but the fishless process (which I learned here on this board) is less work.

No need for tons of plants along with the effort, knowledge or research required.

Regarding Nature and stability:

Keeping fish in small boxes is highly unnatural to begin with. True nature is often harsh and cruel… we can do better for our fish. It's not stability that is harmful, it's wild fluctuations.

Importance of tank maturity in 2 pictures.
Take a look at the Alternanthera front right, the Hemianthus callitrichoides "Cuba" (HC Cuba) left and right, the Rotala wallichii left, the sand and the water clarity.

View attachment 871382

3.5 weeks later:
View attachment 871383

Zer0Fame , How long has this tank been running? Thanks.

 

Hey,

the first picture was after around 6 weeks, the second one after around 10 weeks.
I should have enough pictures for a small timeline of the first 3-4 months if anyone's interested.

 

Wow, that's very novel to me. Adding HCL then GH then salt then plants and co2? Sounds crazy lol, but if it works then that's interesting. With this method, fish are added on day 1? Or is there a waiting period?

Would be interested to see other people's approaches as well

Add fish right away.

This is for hardwater cichlids.

I have my own well water treatment system so must of this is done to make good water for humans and then the fish benefit too. I adjust the process for different kinds of fish.

The idea is to start with soft, neutral water for soft water fish. It's easy to add hardness and salt for cichlids and brackish, saltwater fish and the aquaponics system as needed.

 

Simple! The formula is NH3 = 0,94412 * NH4 / (1 + 10 ^ ((0,0925 + (2728,795 / (t + 273,15 ))) - pH)) where t is the temperature of the water in Celsius and NH4 is NH4 level in ppm.

Okay maybe not so simple.

On this site you'll find a handy sheet with the percentages.

Hach Support Online

For example you measure 3ppm NH4 in your tank and your water temperature is 24°C, pH is 8. You calculate 3 * 5% or 3* 0,05 and the result is 0.15 ppm NH3. Everything above 0.02 I deem critical, above 0.10 very critical and 0.15 extremely critical.

Hi! I'm interested in this formula you posted, but I'm a bit confused as to where some of the numerical values come in, the 5% for example. Do you mind elaborating a bit or putting it into layman's terms? Lol

Thank you!

 

Hey,

The above formula has been developed by people way smarter than me.

But I see where the confusion comes in ... the website I posted deleted the article.

Please refer to this website: Ammonia and Ammonium—What’s the Difference? - Aquarium Fish Depot

There you will find the table from which I pulled those numbers.
Basically, for example, at a pH of 8 and a water temperature of 24°C, 5% of your NH4/NH3 concentration will be in the form of NH3.
Following the table, at 20°C and a pH of 7.6, only 1.55% of your NH4/NH3 concentration will be in the form of NH3.

Does that clear things up? If not please ask, I'll try to explain better.

 

Hey,

The above formula has been developed by people way smarter than me.

But I see where the confusion comes in ... the website I posted deleted the article.

Please refer to this website: Ammonia and Ammonium—What’s the Difference? - Aquarium Fish Depot

There you will find the table from which I pulled those numbers.
Basically, for example, at a pH of 8 and a water temperature of 24°C, 5% of your NH4/NH3 concentration will be in the form of NH3.
Following the table, at 20°C and a pH of 7.6, only 1.55% of your NH4/NH3 concentration will be in the form of NH3.

Does that clear things up? If not please ask, I'll try to explain better.

Yes, it does! I appreciate the link and the explanation. That's very fascinating, the science behind it all can go much further I'm sure!

 

hi

Research on nitrite-oxidising bacteria is scarce. Here's a nice one: A New Perspective on Microbes Formerly Known as Nitrite-Oxidizing Bacteria

Few take-aways:

- nitrite oxidizing bacteria (NOB) live spatially in close proximity to ammonia oxidizing organisms
- NOB does not necessarily appear after ammonia oxidisers
- because, and this relates to the title of this paper, these NOB have a versatile metabolism and can live on other sources too, including H2
- hence, NOB are also found in areas lacking nitrites
- it is assumed by these authors that ammonia and nitrite oxidisers are outcompeted by Comammox (as complete oxidation delivers higher energy yield)

Perhaps, NOB do not play any role in aquaria. Comammox share some of the same enzymes with NOB. Perhaps ammonia oxidizing archaea appear first in aquaria and are quickly outcompeted by Comammox.

bye

 

hi

Research on nitrite-oxidising bacteria is scarce. Here's a nice one: A New Perspective on Microbes Formerly Known as Nitrite-Oxidizing Bacteria

Few take-aways:

- nitrite oxidizing bacteria (NOB) live spatially in close proximity to ammonia oxidizing organisms
- NOB does not necessarily appear after ammonia oxidisers
- because, and this relates to the title of this paper, these NOB have a versatile metabolism and can live on other sources too, including H2
- hence, NOB are also found in areas lacking nitrites
- it is assumed by these authors that ammonia and nitrite oxidisers are outcompeted by Comammox (as complete oxidation delivers higher energy yield)

Perhaps, NOB do not play any role in aquaria. Comammox share some of the same enzymes with NOB. Perhaps ammonia oxidizing archaea appear first in aquaria and are quickly outcompeted by Comammox.

bye

What about sediment analysis of freshwater water systems where archaea outnumber bacteria by a magnitude or more? Dont have time now but I can find the papers later

 

What about sediment analysis of freshwater water systems where archaea outnumber bacteria by a magnitude or more? Dont have time now but I can find the papers later

Yes, I'm a little time-constrained myself too at the moment.

Sediments are a beast. The study of soils, to my knowledge, is pretty fragmented and mostly restricted to terrestrial. Feel free to share anything.

True nature is often harsh and cruel… we can do better for our fish.

I don't think I can do better than true nature.

 

Yes, I'm a little time-constrained myself too at the moment.

Sediments are a beast. The study of soils, to my knowledge, is pretty fragmented and mostly restricted to terrestrial. Feel free to share anything.

The second link in my previous post provides a detailed literature review...archaea seem to dominate in lower ammonia concentrations ie domestic waste treatment plants but bacteria dominates in extremely high concentrations ie industrial waste treatment plants

That paper links to another literature review that goes into more detail... haven't read through it but they list the abundance of archaea vs bacteria in several waste treatment centers, seems like some has higher bacteria count and some has higher archaea (the abundance is inferred through the number of ammonia oxidizing genes, which is easier to test for I think)

Also in saltwater bacteria seems to dominate by far

 

I don't think I can do better than true nature.

That sounds good but you missed the point. As one example the natural wetlands behind my backyard floods in late winter and early spring. Fish move in and spawn. In summer it dries up and they are flopping around in mud puddles. In true nature there is much more suffering and death than will ever be in my tank, and likely yours too.