Is Cycling a tank useless

Or someone forgot to tell the tank owner to actually STOP dosing ammonia after adding fish...

 

I have seen a lot of newcomers that are not able to get seeded media. They don't live close to a store, a teen that cant drive yet, or just don't know anyone with a tank.

At my pet stores their plants are pretty pathetic sometimes AND expensive. Most new fish keepers would think it was insane to spend $300 dollars on plants to fill a tank, or just dont have the money to do so. The "filling the tank with plants" is not always a option for everyone either.

So in essence a fishless or fish in cycle are the only choices. Ammonia is fairly easy for most people to get. With fish in cycles a lot of newbies don't realize they may have to change water possibly every day. Which can be a problem.

 

At my pet stores their plants are pretty pathetic sometimes AND expensive. Most new fish keepers would think it was insane to spend $300 dollars on plants to fill a tank, or just dont have the money to do so. The "filling the tank with plants" is not always a option for everyone either.

This is why I like to tell folks to use a 2 litre bottle of yeast and sugar and bubble C02 into the tank when starting a new planted tank on a realistic budget. You can get plants like Anubias, Java fern and, Anacharis and inject C02 and make 'em grow like crazy and fill your tank with healthy growing plants. Saves like a zillion dollars in weeds. And makes for a happy balanced self sustaining tank. After a while you may not need the C02. But there is apprehension to using C02 and some purists out there. So many beginners with dying plants though. And DIY C02 works so well!

So how much ammonia is dosed for cycling? 4 ppm?

Lets turn this around.

Assuming a 100 liter tank / 26 gallon tank.

That's 0.4 grams ammonia. That's 11.7 grams of feed for 587 grams of fish. Just calculating the reverse direction of what I wrote earlier.

That's 587 neon tetra's in a 26 gallon tank.

According to aqadvisor, I'm overstocked.

I agree.

Your math is right, but I don't think that the reason for 4 ppm ammonia is to support 587 fish. There are charts that show the speed of bacteria growth vs ammonia concentration, and the higher levels of ammonia leads to faster growth. So the reason for adding all that ammonia is to make the cycle go faster. And that is what people really want, to go get some fish! Now!! I mean that is the fun part. Sitting around waiting for invisible chemicals is boring right!

 

This is why I like to tell folks to use a 2 litre bottle of yeast and sugar and bubble C02 into the tank when starting a new planted tank on a realistic budget. You can get plants like Anubias, Java fern and, Anacharis and inject C02 and make 'em grow like crazy and fill your tank with healthy growing plants. Saves like a zillion dollars in weeds. And makes for a happy balanced self sustaining tank. After a while you may not need the C02. But there is apprehension to using C02 and some purists out there. So many beginners with dying plants though. And DIY C02 works so well!

Your math is right, but I don't think that the reason for 4 ppm ammonia is to support 587 fish. There are charts that show the speed of bacteria growth vs ammonia concentration, and the higher levels of ammonia leads to faster growth. So the reason for adding all that ammonia is to make the cycle go faster. And that is what people really want, to go get some fish! Now!! I mean that is the fun part. Sitting around waiting for invisible chemicals is boring right!

Hate to say it but MOST brand new fish keepers are not going to make a yeast and sugar CO2 system. Also it could be a recipe for disaster for a new inexperienced person.

 

I’m with StarGirl. Way too many problems with CO2 and diy is a recipe for disaster. I am glad it works for you and I guess it’s different if it’s just a plant tank but when you add fish it’s not recommended to new keepers.

 

I don't think that the reason for 4 ppm ammonia is to support 587 fish.

No?

Anyways, I like to keep the discussion on the N not the C. Soon I'll be opening a new thread "CO2 is useless", so we can get into the C cycle.

+++++++++++

The colonization of microbes is dependent on the ammonia concentration. In relatively high concentrations, you get species {d,e,g,f,etc}. In relatively low concentrations, you get {g,h,i,j,k,l,m,etc}. Where the lines need to be drawn, whether these are gradients, what those exact species are, if it even matters, is not clear.

Scientists studying these microbes are not interested in "cycling a tank" nor in ornamental fish. The money is in aquaculture. They base their research on "mature" situations, that represent an aquaculture system, control most variables and deliberately vary one or a few, and then measure all the microbes inside the tank, inside filters, etc.

The conclusion is that the microbe species living inside a filter are different from those inside the tank. And that the ones that dominate, convert ammonia directly to nitrates (in "low ammonia environments" in water treatment situations, so not to be mistaken with 6 neons in a 75 G tank).

Are the ones that convert ammonia to nitrites more opportunistic and only present during the startup?

Similar to seeing "brown algae" first in a new tank (or in nature, when winter turns to spring), followed by green algaes?



From: Ammonia-oxidizing archaea and complete ammonia-oxidizing Nitrospira in water treatment systems

 

At my pet stores their plants are pretty pathetic sometimes AND expensive. Most new fish keepers would think it was insane to spend $300 dollars on plants to fill a tank, or just dont have the money to do so.

Are they that expensive? O_O

$300 would get me, when on sale, around 125-150 pots of Hygrophila polysperma / Limnophila sessiliflora / standard Anubias / etc. And if you have a tank big enough to house 150 pots of that from the get-go, you really shouldn't be in a situation to worry about $300.

 

Let's make it a bit more wild.

How much space is required to enable bacteria and the likes, to convert ammonia?

In aquaculture / water treatment / science, usually the phrase "TAN conversion rate" is used and expressed as TAN (g) / surface area (m3) /day and sometimes as TAN (g) / surface area (m2) / day.

TAN is ammonia (NH3/NH4).

A very conservative estimate (found in the literature) is 0.2 g ammonia is converted by 1 square meters of surface area per day.

One reference that also takes account of aquaria (yes, they do exist), but I have not yet read it:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...m_and_nitrite_from_freshwater_aquaria_systems
____________________________________________________________________________

Let's apply this to our 2 cases: understocked neon tank and heavily overstocked neon tank:

- 6 neons in a 75G tank: 0.014 mg/l or ppm ammonia = 0.004 grams ammonia total
- 600 neons in a 75G tank*: 1.4 mg/l or ppm ammonia = 0.4 grams ammonia total

*I changed the numbers for ease of comparison with the 6 neon case.

6 vs 600 in a 75G

Now the surface area required:
___________________________________________________________________________

6 neons
- 0,004 grams / 0,2 grams: 0,02 square meters required / day

This equals to an area of 0,14 meter x 0,14 meter or 5,5 inch x 5.5 inch.
This equals to 4 glass windows of 3,5 cm x 3,5 cm or 1.4 x .14 inch.

To process ammonia per day.
___________________________________________________________________________

600 neons
- 0,4 grams / 0,2 grams: 2 square meters required / day

This equals to an area of 1,4 meter x 1,4 m or 55 inch x 55 inch.
This equals to 4 glass windows of 35 cm x 35 cm or 14 inch x 14 inch.

To process ammonia per day.
____________________________________________________________________________

How big is the tank?

75 gallon is a cube of 66 cm or 26 inch.
____________________________________________________________________________

So I don't need a filter to process ammonia of 600 neons in a 75G tank.

I need oxygen in my tank.

@Filter suppliers, feel free to correct the above.

 

Are they that expensive? O_O

$300 would get me, when on sale, around 125-150 pots of Hygrophila polysperma / Limnophila sessiliflora / standard Anubias / etc. And if you have a tank big enough to house 150 pots of that from the get-go, you really shouldn't be in a situation to worry about $300.

Might depend where you are. I would get less than half of what you would get for the same amount unless going to smaller online sellers and then I am hoping for decent quality. When I started I went for artificial rather than real plants, one of the reasons was the artificial were much cheaper per plant and much bigger. I had also read a lot about pest snails coming in on real plants and that put me off too, looked at "in-vitro" and they were even more expensive and smaller. And as a newbie a home made CO2 system would be yet another complication and barrier to enjoying keeping fish, not only would I have to worry about keeping the fish alive I would be worrying about pest snails, how long lights should be on and what intensity and then also am I making this thing correctly? At least I couldn't kill artificial plants. I have since progressed to live plants with rather mixed results. The value of the ones that have wilted and died or just never looked good is greater than the cost of the original artificial ones

 

I'll start a new thread soon "plants are useless".

Please, let's focus on ammonia in this thread.

 

Hey,

looked at "in-vitro" and they were even more expensive and smaller

That's a common misconception.
Yes, in-vitro seems to be more expensive with double the price, but you get 5 times the amount of plants (numbers wise). And with fast growing stem plants you get a real good bang for your buck. Plus guaranteed pest and algae free.

(Sorry for the off-topic ruud)

Filters are often extremely oversized and can even be a problem in planted tanks. However, it depends on the concept and the tank itself.

For converting ammonia (and nitrites). depending on how many fish you have, a huge filter is not needed at all.
In my 33g all the filter did was pure mechanical filtering. The biological part was all done by the tank. And that was with around 35 fish (Microdevario kubotai, Pseudomugil signifer and Pangio kuhlii) plus around 200 shrimp plus the same amount of snails.
No ammonia, no nitrites.

 

I'll start a new thread soon "plants are useless".

Please, let's focus on ammonia in this thread.

Were we not talking about cycling a tank? Your way is with a tank filled with plants?

 

Were we not talking about cycling a tank? Your way is with a tank filled with plants?

I'm no stranger to self-criticism

 

So I don't need a filter to process ammonia of 600 neons in a 75G tank.

I need oxygen in my tank.

@Filter suppliers, feel free to correct the above.

Interesting. But if the water is stagnant, or has dead spots, then the ammonia will build up since it never gets to where the bacteria live on the surface. So the point of the filter is to bring the water to the bio-filter, and to add oxygen by exposing all of the water to the air.

So you DO need a filter, or at least water circulation to make the math work?

Does the math work if the water is stagnant?

 

Interesting. But if the water is stagnant, or has dead spots, then the ammonia will build up since it never gets to where the bacteria live on the surface. So the point of the filter is to bring the water to the bio-filter, and to add oxygen by exposing all of the water to the air.

So you DO need a filter, or at least water circulation to make the math work?

Does the math work if the water is stagnant?

Oxygen depletes very fast in biofilms, so yes, water movement helps big time. Especially with 600 neons I guess.

 

Hey,

it's very very common here to run planted tanks with not too much fish with nothing but a flow pump.

However, if you do it correctly, it also works without any (external) water movement at all. Water transports nutrients and traces via diffusion.
This is often done with "window sill tanks". No filter, no lights, no CO2, just a bunch of easy plants and very little fish.

 

View attachment 871046

Are the ones that convert ammonia to nitrites more opportunistic and only present during the startup?

Similar to seeing "brown algae" first in a new tank (or in nature, when winter turns to spring), followed by green algaes?

From: Ammonia-oxidizing archaea and complete ammonia-oxidizing Nitrospira in water treatment systems

I am tracking. This is very cool and may explain why we love biofilms in aquaculture. The 'Commamox' bacteria that live in the mature biofilms. These also live in our mature filters? That brown gelatinous stuff that forms on a two year old canister filter is Gold!!

I have a basement aquaponics system and learning to scale up to something bigger some day. Tracking you Rudd!


For aquariums, it seems that we need to develop a commercial way to build up this biofilm, then sell it in pre-seeded filters in little bags at Petco. You insert the pre-seeded biofilm filter into the newbie's tank and have instant fish tank! Ca-Ching $$$$$

 

Hey,

it's very very common here to run planted tanks with not too much fish with nothing but a flow pump.

However, if you do it correctly, it also works without any (external) water movement at all. Water transports nutrients and traces via diffusion.
This is often done with "window sill tanks". No filter, no lights, no CO2, just a bunch of easy plants and very little fish.

And just because we cannot see movement, doesn't mean there isn't any: brownian motion, thermophoresis, bioreactions, animal movement (from the tiniest with a flagellum to fish).

 

In many instances newbies don’t even have the opportunity to become aware of the nitrogen cycle before tragedy strikes so our ruminations on the complexities of fish-in or fishless and what to recommend to them is a moot point. That’s not going to change until LFS staff are educated and stop sending home customers after their first visit with all equipment, fish and a bottle of bacteria. By the time they post on Fishlore they already have dead and dying fish and it’s a race against the clock to educate them and help them save their remaining stock.

I guess I'm of the more hands-on & old school contingent but taking in surrenders (& teaching) I get a fair bit of opportunity to recommend either fish-in, fishless or simply, "do this" cycling with no actual explanation. The choice depends on whether their whole stock is swimming in my hospital tanks or only most of their animals. So it's not moot to me.

The not-so-local LFS I generally buy from has a 'steps-to-cycling' brochure printed on the return policy for aquaria purchases. Others are weird - from outright ignorance to arrogance when it comes to explaining cycling (& anything else). I wish LPS staff had animal care education built into their employment & certification levels tied to wage increases. You know, as if appropriate animal care & care educating were admirable professions. I think that'd help improve cycling knowledge & general animal survival - fish in or fishless. Just saying.

 

The not-so-local LFS I generally buy from has a 'steps-to-cycling' brochure printed on the return policy for aquaria purchases. Others are weird - from outright ignorance to arrogance when it comes to explaining cycling (& anything else). I wish LPS staff had animal care education built into their employment & certification levels tied to wage increases. You know, as if appropriate animal care & care educating were admirable professions. I think that'd help improve cycling knowledge & general animal survival - fish in or fishless. Just saying.

Yes I had a similar thought, such as a legal requirement for LFS to display or provide a fact sheet on cycling with livestock purchases.

Education is not made any easier when many of the large and generally well respected companies in the industry include advice on their bacteria products that fish can be added at any time while using it.

 

Cycling needs patience and this industry profits off of impulsiveness so I dont think cycling will ever be taken seriously

 

Cycling needs patience and this industry profits off of impulsiveness so I dont think cycling will ever be taken seriously

Impulsiveness and fear

Anything that motivates people to action to spend money.

 

Cycling needs patience and this industry profits off of impulsiveness so I dont think cycling will ever be taken seriously

At least not in the direction that makes sense from a biology standpoint.

Cycling is determined by oxygen availability. Not ammonia availability.

Yes, you need ammonia of course, but it's oxygen that drives the cycle.

The much more thoroughly studied and somewhat related domains of aquaculture and water treatment make this irrefutably clear.

But in our hobby, ammonia is assumed to be the limiting factor.

As long as this remains, we continue to follow fairly irrelevant practices (and waste some money along the way).

If there is one test people should buy in the hobby it is an oxygen test. And a forum such as Fishlore should include it for instance in the emergency template. Even if it is just to create awareness. And the importance of oxygen doesn't stop with the N cycle.

___________________________________________

Secondly, StarGirl, you asked for it: plants.

If a tank is well planted, cycling should be viewed differently. Plants are nitrogen consumers, net oxygen producers, and most likely attract a different microbial community (Myriophyllum aquaticum Constructed Wetland Effectively Removes Nitrogen in Swine Wastewater), making a fancy canister filter redundant.

Again, the water movement caused by the canister has benefits.

If the main players in a tank are the plants, I am convinced that cycling can be completely replaced by focus on the health and growth of plants.

____________________________________________

This thread continues as I'll dive a little deeper in ammonia poisoning in time to come.

 

Oh how i wish this were true, but we must cycle aquariums, especially chiclid keepers who dont have live plants. Should change this post to "Useless to cycle frewshwater planted tank"
I can just see newbies reading this and the disaster that awaits them when they put 20 fish into a brand new tank with hard alkaline water and with a couple small live plants........

 

In case anyone stumbles on this. Oxygen tests are readily available. I use this one.
sera oxygen-Test (O2) | sera

Oh how i wish this were true, but we must cycle aquariums, especially chiclid keepers who dont have live plants. Should change this post to "Useless to cycle frewshwater planted tank"
I can just see newbies reading this and the disaster that awaits them when they put 20 fish into a brand new tank with hard alkaline water and with a couple small live plants........

Newbies need to know about oxygen since it is fundamental to life but is currently skipped in the Fishlore template. Oxygen is needed regardless of plants, or the alkalinity of the tank. I see newbies all the time with low oxygen killing their tanks.

 

Oh how i wish this were true, but we must cycle aquariums, especially chiclid keepers who dont have live plants. Should change this post to "Useless to cycle frewshwater planted tank"
I can just see newbies reading this and the disaster that awaits them when they put 20 fish into a brand new tank with hard alkaline water and with a couple small live plants........

If people are only willing to read the cover of a book and not the contents, they are also responsible for the consequences.

This thread is also a critique of the standard cycling procedure... which is obvious from reading the posts...

I only mentioned plants in my last post, because StarGirl insisted

If the moderators of the forum like to change the title to the less provocative "a critique on cycling", it's fine with me.

 

Cycling needs patience and this industry profits off of impulsiveness so I dont think cycling will ever be taken seriously

Ah, take heart! After decades unwittingly cycling tanks thru trial & error, it was a handful of literal children who walked me thru the by then more widely known cycling steps & educated me on reams of "new" stuff I'd missed pre-internet, just dinking along with my established tanks. Yikes. In the early 1970s, I was dubbed strange
because I had plants, sand & rocks instead of 'clean' gravel & plastic decor - by experienced tank keepers! Now I'm par for the course.

Industries, every one of them, are predatory. Despite the trade investing more in marketing than animal lives, I now log on to forums like this one & find tons of people who know about cycling & teach it to others. I've had fish surrendered to me by frustrated parents whilst their 8 yr old taps their foot muttering "I told you so!" & perfectly explaining the nitrogen cycle, heaters, filters, etc...

Admittedly, tank cycling is not widespread knowledge yet but it's increasingly known thru forums like this. Not too long ago LFS didn't even sell bacteria & animal shelters still provided cable tie outs for the newly adopted puppy.

Take heart. We're doing better. There's increased awareness of & standards for animal care across the board. Between customer education (like this forum) & the day the trade figures out they can make a buck on cycled tanks, I believe we'll get there. I'm counting on the 8 yr olds.

 

If the main players in a tank are the plants, I am convinced that cycling can be completely replaced by focus on the health and growth of plants.

Sure, if you want to keep a handful of small fish with little or even no filtration. (which is exactly what many here do) The majority don't want to do this. They want more fish. Or large fish. So they need supplemental traditional filtration and it will become cycled over time one way or another or there will be failure and death. Wall to wall plants ain't gonna keep up with the demands of lots of or large fish. Never mind there wouldn't even be enough room left for them to swim! So no, cycling will not be completely replaced by plants anytime soon.

 

Live plants are great. And using them to suck up ammonia absolutely works.

But it only works when the plants are thriving. If the plants aren't growing, they aren't doing their job. And if they are dying, then they are actually contributing to the problem. If you are relying on them for ammonia management, and they aren't growing, you're out of luck. So if you can already reliably grow plants, then this is a great method. But if you haven't done it before, its a big gamble to count on it.

My opinion on using plants for dealing with ammonia is very similar to my opinion about fishless cycling. Its a great method, and works wonderfully well. But its not necessarily the best introductory method for a beginner to attempt. There is an extra layer of complexity, and an extra skill-set required for success.

I think its a great idea to add plants to any new tank. But I wouldn't recommend that a beginner rely solely on those plants to handle the ammonia. They should still be applying a bacterial cycling method until they are sure everything is working as it should be.

 

Sure, if you want to keep a handful of small fish with little or even no filtration. (which is exactly what many here do) The majority don't want to do this. They want more fish. Or large fish. So they need supplemental traditional filtration and it will become cycled over time one way or another or there will be failure and death. Wall to wall plants ain't gonna keep up with the demands of lots of or large fish. Never mind there wouldn't even be enough room left for them to swim! So no, cycling will not be completely replaced by plants anytime soon.

Who assumed cycling is going to be replaced by plants anytime soon?
Not me.

The calculations based on 600 neons excluded plants.
(imagine if plants were included... )

Live plants are great. And using them to suck up ammonia absolutely works.

But it only works when the plants are thriving. If the plants aren't growing, they aren't doing their job. And if they are dying, then they are actually contributing to the problem. If you are relying on them for ammonia management, and they aren't growing, you're out of luck. So if you can already reliably grow plants, then this is a great method. But if you haven't done it before, its a big gamble to count on it.

My opinion on using plants for dealing with ammonia is very similar to my opinion about fishless cycling. Its a great method, and works wonderfully well. But its not necessarily the best introductory method for a beginner to attempt. There is an extra layer of complexity, and an extra skill-set required for success.

I think its a great idea to add plants to any new tank. But I wouldn't recommend that a beginner rely solely on those plants to handle the ammonia. They should still be applying a bacterial cycling method until they are sure everything is working as it should be.

I would not suggest plants either to a newcomer for starting up a fish tank... what a hassle!

It's just that I would not recommend the ammonia dosing and testing procedure either, as I question the biological relevance. Instead, I would approach the N problem as an O problem. That's all.

But if someone's objective is to have a planted tank (yes, these people do exist!) with fish swimming around, then the ammonia dosing and testing procedure, doesn't make sense. The ammonia will actually cause the "cycle" to lengthen as it interferes with the bacteria that will colonise the planted tank. You can leave it up to plants to take care of both the ammonia and the microbes.

Perhaps we should organise a zoom meeting.

 

Hey,

first of all, I don't mean to offend anyone, in all honesty.

...is it really considered a "skill" to grow plants? I mean, there are literally plants that you can throw into anything that even remotely resembles water and they will grow. You would actually have to put some effort in, like salt, chlorine or a flamethrower, to kill them off.

In fact I find it a lot harder to start a tank without any plants.

Of course if you put a Rotala ramosior in a blackwater tank with an energy-saving lamp above it you're out of luck, but there are plants like Ceratophyllum demersum or Hygrophila polysperma ... or even mosses, that can thrive from the light of a smartphone (exaggerating here, please don't try)

I don't think I've shown my low-tech tank yet.
27l/7g, no fertilizers (okay, maybe a dash of potassium every 4-6 weeks if I feel like it and have it in hand already), a 15$ light, a 15$ filter, tap water, water changes every 1-2 weeks. Nothing else. And those are already considered "medium difficulty" plants. The Rotala isn't thriving, but surviving. Fair enough to me.

 

Who assumed cycling is going to be replaced by plants anytime soon?
Not me.

I quoted your exact words in my reply! I won't quote them again or play word games because you didn't specify when focus on healthy plants "would completely replace cycling".

And the thread wasn't about plants even though it always was.

"Perhaps we should organise a zoom meeting."

I've been enjoying this thread and even learned a thing or two. Thanks, and please count me in on the zoom meeting. Maybe we can discuss what happens to oxygen, CO2, and PH levels at night when the plants consume more oxygen than they produce. Thanks for a provocative and entertaining thread.

 

Maybe we can discuss what happens to oxygen, CO2, and PH levels at night when the plants consume more oxygen than they produce.

Hey,

O2 levels drop, CO2 levels rise, pH is lowered a little. Thankfully plants produce the double to triple amount of oxygen during the day than what they consume at night, which helps the fish and the bacteria to breath better than in a tank with no plants.
Without a CO2 system, CO2 levels will be far from critical (unless you're called ruud and put 600 neons in a 26g). With a CO2 system either make sure it's dialed in or, and that's what I recommend, get a solenoid valve.

However, in a really, and I mean REALLY heavily planted tank, that might become a problem IF there is a lot of livestock in the tank and little to no surface agitation. If you have some surface agitation there should not be any problems.
The reason is that a fixed amount of water can only have x amount of dissolved oxygen. Let's say you have enough plants to push it from 70% to 100%, the water is saturated. At night they consume 10%. Now you double the plant mass. They will still only be able to push it to 100%, but will consume 20%. Double that again and it's already at 40%. A good surface agitation counters that ... you can either use the filter or an airstone-setup that turns on at night. I have never needed that though, and I had some tanks with a hefty plant mass. Only thing I did was shutting off CO2 at night with said solenoid valve, since I was running 30ppm during the day already.

I guess what I want to say is: If you run into oxygen problems at night it's not the plants who are to blame, but the setup.

Short digression about the pH.

pH is a logarithmic value. Doubling the CO2 level reduces the pH by exactly 0.3. Doubling the KH raises the pH by exactly 0.3. Halving the CO2 ... you get the drift. For a pH crash, the KH would already need to be ridiculously low with no buffers at all. Usually the pH difference is between .3 and .5 within 24 hours.

 

Hey,

first of all, I don't mean to offend anyone, in all honesty.

...is it really considered a "skill" to grow plants? I mean, there are literally plants that you can throw into anything that even remotely resembles water and they will grow. You would actually have to put some effort in, like salt, chlorine or a flamethrower, to kill them off.

In fact I find it a lot harder to start a tank without any plants.

No offense taken. But yes it is a skill. Some people will pick it up faster than others. And some people have tap water that is well suited to growing plants, while others do not. People with soft acidic water water will face different challenges than people with hard alkaline water. People who have a tank in a bright room will face different challenges than those with a tank in a windowless basement.

This type of talk is exactly the kind of misunderstanding that can happen between a beginner and person who already knows what they are doing. Its easy for you, because you're already successful at it. Since it is easy for you, you struggle to understand that it may not be easy for others. Since you don't understand why others would struggle, you may provide advice that is not actually helpful to them. We're all prone to that kind of thinking. So its important that we check that bias when we are working with others.

I don't mind sharing that I struggled with plants at first. My first tank was planted, and it looked great for about 2 weeks. But the plants weren't growing well, and within two months it was completely overrun by green hair algae. And when that subsided, cyanobacteria coated my entire substrate, and when I finally got rid of that, black beard algae completely took over. At the end of it, even jungle val was struggling to survive.

By the time I actually sorted out how to grow plants in that tank, more than a year had passed. From the light to the substrate, that tank was never set up properly to grow plants well. But at the time, I was reading things like you just wrote, and I believed it should be easy. All I had to do was throw some plants in right? Well, that's not how it worked out for me.

At this point, I don't find planted tanks difficult at all. I know how to set my tanks up for success. But I remember what it took for me to get here. It was a learning process.

I don't want to discourage people from doing planted tanks. They're awesome, and once you learn how to do it, they really are easier. Just don't expect it to be easier on day 1.

 

Nice graph from a paper I already shared in this thread. All "cycling enthusiasts" no doubt have printed this one out and placed above their beds.




I'm all for opening a plant thread .

As for clickbait, I would call it "keeping water parameters stable is detrimental to life in a tank, but continues to be promoted because technology, sold by the fish keeping industry, is cheaper when operating consistently than when simulating the complexities of nature ".

Too long of a title?

As for cycling, plants are not part of the cycling equation, they change it.

The following is an interesting study Nitrogen transformations across compartments of an aquaponic system which shows that the microbial community in the planted component of a aquaponic system is much more complex, compared to a tank with nothing but fish. Complexity is the core of resilience.




I expect much more insight to surface in the next few years thanks to aquaponics.

 

I dont think anyone performs DNA sequencing to determine the strains of nitrifiers in their tanks... as a hobbyist the most important question for me is just:

"Is the fish alive or dead?"

Whether we think cycling is useless or not...how would we set up a tank from scratch such that the fish will be alive in there?

Reading through all these comments I haven't seen any concrete, actionable replies, we are kind of missing the forest for the trees.

If I have hard alkaline waters (pH around 8), want to keep plant eating cichlids, no pre-seeded media, what should I do? What are the steps to ensure a successful tank? If anyone can provide these steps, then we can apply and test...see if the fish is alive after a period of time (ie 1 month).

I have my own list of steps to make a tank "fish-safe" based on my own knowledge of the cycle. Whether the cycling is responsible isn't what I'm concerned about, what matters is that the fish are alive and healthy

 

I dont think anyone performs DNA sequencing to determine the strains of nitrifiers in their tanks... as a hobbyist the most important question for me is just:

"Is the fish alive or dead?"

Whether we think cycling is useless or not...how would we set up a tank from scratch such that the fish will be alive in there?

Reading through all these comments I haven't seen any concrete, actionable replies, we are kind of missing the forest for the trees.

If I have hard alkaline waters (pH around 8), want to keep plant eating cichlids, no pre-seeded media, what should I do? What are the steps to ensure a successful tank? If anyone can provide these steps, then we can apply and test...see if the fish is alive after a period of time (ie 1 month).

I have my own list of steps to make a tank "fish-safe" based on my own knowledge of the cycle. Whether the cycling is responsible isn't what I'm concerned about, what matters is that the fish are alive and healthy

Whatever style of cycle you think suits you will work. A fishless cycle will work, and so will a fish-in cycle.

There are only 3 steps needed to do a fish in cycle safely even with a ph of 8.

1. Stock lightly.
2. Change water.
3. Test to verify.

Even with plant eating cichlids, there would be nothing stopping you from adding plants at first, and remove them later. Or just sacrificing them. Buy something cheap like a clump of water wisteria and just float it. That's probably cheaper than bacteria in a bottle.

 

I dont think anyone performs DNA sequencing to determine the strains of nitrifiers in their tanks... as a hobbyist the most important question for me is just:

"Is the fish alive or dead?"

Whether we think cycling is useless or not...how would we set up a tank from scratch such that the fish will be alive in there?

Reading through all these comments I haven't seen any concrete, actionable replies, we are kind of missing the forest for the trees.

If I have hard alkaline waters (pH around 8), want to keep plant eating cichlids, no pre-seeded media, what should I do? What are the steps to ensure a successful tank? If anyone can provide these steps, then we can apply and test...see if the fish is alive after a period of time (ie 1 month).

I have my own list of steps to make a tank "fish-safe" based on my own knowledge of the cycle. Whether the cycling is responsible isn't what I'm concerned about, what matters is that the fish are alive and healthy

Sorry to hear you are disappointed.

Myself, I'm having a great time wondering around in the forest, digging stuff up.

I'm not in a hurry to come to conclusions and simplify matters into the 7 steps to happiness. Or the ultimate guide in fish keeping.

As a matter of fact, I lack the ambition.

 

If I have hard alkaline waters (pH around 8), want to keep plant eating cichlids, no pre-seeded media, what should I do? What are the steps to ensure a successful tank? If anyone can provide these steps, then we can apply and test...see if the fish is alive after a period of time (ie 1 month).

One option (This is actually what I do):
- Use concentrated HCL and aeration to remove the KH from the water and reduce the pH to 7.0, but keep the KH at 3-4 degrees.
- Add GH as needed to increase hardness for the hardwater cichlids to help their kidneys function.
- Add salinity in small amount to detoxify nitrite (1 teaspoon per 10 gallons) and not harm plants.
- Use fast growing weeds (I mean plants) and appropriate light and inject C02.
- Add fish
- Aerate the tank well and keep oxygen at 8 ppm

- Don't worry about ammonia and nitrites since at 7.0 pH toxicity requires very high levels of ammonia and the salt protects the fish from nitrites.

At first lots of algae grows, but in time, this dissipates. I am tracking Rudd to understand that there is this next level for the cycle as the tank matures where new stuff happens. Cool!

The typical cycle that we see is because the fish are in an unnatural environment where they are swimming in their own waste water, and the water has been engineered for humans rather than fish and the water may lack the proper amount of KH, GH, oxygen and salinity.

 

Importance of tank maturity in 2 pictures.
Take a look at the Alternanthera front right, the Hemianthus callitrichoides "Cuba" (HC Cuba) left and right, the Rotala wallichii left, the sand and the water clarity.




3.5 weeks later: