Intro, TSS help please

Hello, a few weeks ago my daughter brought home 8 feeder goldfish that had been used as center pieces at a school function, in two tiny little bowls. I've kept fish before, but killed them all, and thanks to the power of Google, the more I research the more I learn that I did EVERYTHING wrong. So anyway, we had no tank. I tried to keep the fish alive in bigger bowls, but most of them died. We bought a tank--20 gallons was the largest size we had room for/could afford. I know it's not going to be the right tank forever, but it's what I can do for right now. I found out about the nitrogen cycle, but because the fish were dying so fast it was recommended to us by the pet store that the fish stood a better chance of survival in an uncycled tank than a fish bowl. The fish are doing well but things are going almost too well, so last night I was Googling and found these forums and the TSS startup guidelines, which I messed up.

Here's what I need help with (well, the most urgent things):
13 days ago, I filled the tank with water from the tap, started the filter running and used the Tetra brand water conditioner that came with the tank. At this time I added aquarium salt, because I had been using it in the fish bowls. A couple of hours later, I added one small bottle of Tetra Safe Start, a size recommended for 20 gallon tanks.

12 days ago, I added the three remaining fish, one at a time, over the course of the afternoon and evening. I took my water to be tested, and because the ph was high, the salesperson recommended that I use Ph Down, which I did.

5 days ago, on what would have been day 8 for the TSS, I vacuumed the gravel in my tank and replaced 25% of the water. I used Ph Down in the replacement water, and Seachem Prime that I THINK had been sitting in the water overnight. (I keep two gallons of water in jugs under the aquarium so the water temperature will match when I do water changes. It was absolutely essential when I was trying to keep fish alive in fish bowls.) I did not add aquarium salt to the new water. We placed Seachem brand ammonia and ph alerts in the tank for constant surveillance. The ph at that time was 7.2, after treating with Ph Down.

It is day 13 of what should be my TSS cycle. I am reading 0 ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates. I have test strips right now, but will get the API kit as soon as money permits. My water is soft, my alkalinity is low. In the last couple of days my ph has started to drop, not drastically but steadily down. It appears to be 6.6 now. I have three less-than-two-inch goldfish, one small Anubias plant on a rock, two java ferns, and a medium sunken temple decoration purchased at the pet store. I have the filter that came with the tank, and aquarium gravel.

Question 1--is there anything I can do, at this point, to increase the odds that my TSS cycle will complete properly?

Question 2--I would like to attempt to wait on a water change, since I would theoretically be so close to the end of a TSS cycle anyway, to give the TSS the best chance of success. But, should I worry about the dropping ph?

I cannot express how hard I have worked to keep these fish alive. I have worried and suffered with every death. We bought an aquarium just for them, and we committed to having fish even though we aren't fish people. I have listened to person after person tell me what awful fish goldfish are, and how I should just flush them down the toilet. Please help me keep them alive.

 

Welcome to the forum! Some people love goldfish. You already know this is not a long term solution for these fish, but I agree there is no reason you can't do your best hit them now. Since your ammonia is 0 I would say you could wait to do your water change. I would be more concerned about the 0 nitrates. You should have nitrates building at this point. On day 14 I would usually suggest a big water change (like 50%). However, due to your dropping pH it sounds like you may have water hardness issues. So I will page on CindiL and Dragones150918 to help you sort out the water chemistry. For now do nothing (pending further inquiry and input) and especially do not use more pH down! Keep asking questions here - it is a great place to learn and get help!

 

I would not use the PH down as most fish will adapt to a wide range of ph. I also would not add salt. Since there is all you readings are zero. I would go back to the store and get another bottle of TSS . Make sure it is the one that says start up on the front of the bottle and not the one that's says monthly which is just a water conditioner. Pour the whole bottle in the tank when you get home. even rinse the bottle in the tank water. It is just the beneficial bacteria so it won't hurt your fish. For the next two weeks do not do water changes until you start seeing nitrates. What also might of happened is you do not add the TSS until 24 hours after you added conditioned water to the tank. If you need to top off the tank after a week then you can add prime at the rate of 2 drops per gallon of water that are adding. Welcome to the forum and good luck with the tank. Keep us posted on how it is going. Alison

 

Hi, welcome to fishlore

Stop using PH Down, never ever use it again! In fact, throw it out seriously, don't use it. It is actually introducing acids into your tank in order to lower ph. By doing so, it lowers KH making your aquarium more susceptible to ph swings. The majority of fish are fine in higher ph's. I should say goldfish also are find in high ph.

What are the test results in numbers of tap and tank? Please right down the numbers to the best of your ability with the test strips (which are notoriously inaccurate) and post them back here. I would get to the store and pick up the API Master Liquid Test kit or order it on amazon, its a bit cheaper there. You'll get hundreds of tests out of it and it is very accurate. If you can get it today, use that instead of the strips and test tap and tank and give us ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and high range ph. For GH and KH, the test strip will suffice for today.

If you can't pick up the liquid kit today I would do a water change and not replace the salt or ph down.
I would worry about the dropping ph but since you've been using the PH Down you won't want to change out too much, too fast. Do a few 25% water changes, maybe two today and another tomorrow to get your ph back up.

Dose prime for the full volume of your water with your water changes. You can do a water change, dose with prime, wait 24 hours then pour in your bottle of TSS+ once your ph is back up.

Sounds like you're trying hard, I went through the same thing years ago with my son's feeder goldfish he won at a fair. I had never kept fish, except briefly long enough to kill them by my lack of knowledge. Now I'm an avid aquarium owner and he lost interest within a couple years of getting that fish.

 

Good advice from CindiL above Alison

 

CindiL rocks the advise like always

 

Quick tip! Remember to shake the TSS alot! I ended up buying 2 bottles before I realised I had done it wrong! It 'activates' the bacteria inside.
~Mudkipz

 

Thank you everyone! I appreciate the welcomes and the advice. I will stop using Ph Down. I had the feeling that the salesperson only recommended it because I had a dying fish and was very distraught, and she was maybe trying to do something to placate me. This is my week to get the test kit, but I'm ordering it from Amazon.

What are the test results in numbers of tap and tank? Please right down the numbers to the best of your ability with the test strips (which are notoriously inaccurate) and post them back here.

Original tap water with strips was the highest possible number, I think an 8.something. I did get to take a sample to the pet store, and convinced a salesperson to use the API test kit, and she came up with 7.4. Right now, the Seachem sensor which is immersed in the tank is reading 6.6, by my best guess because some of the colors are hard for me to decipher. My water is coming up soft but not very soft, I can't remember the number but it's exactly in the soft area on the strips. The alkalinity is 40 on the strips. Nitrites and Nitrates are 0. However, I know the test strips are unreliable. The immersed Seachem ammonia sensor is still solidly in the 0-.25 range.

Dose prime for the full volume of your water with your water changes. You can do a water change, dose with prime, wait 24 hours then pour in your bottle of TSS+ once your ph is back up.

Ok, this is a part I don't understand. When I put water in the tank, I treat it in the one gallon jug I use to store it in. I add the amount of Seachem needed to treat one gallon of water. Are you saying, add the amount of Seachem needed for the entire twenty gallons in the tank? If so, I don't understand why it's done this way?

Also, another question--at this point, the cartridge in my filter (it says it's a Whisper, and it came with the tank) is about two weeks old, and I'm hearing that it needs to be changed at a month. Will it be able to survive until the cycling is complete?

Thank you!

 

Do not change your filter cartridge unless it is falling apart! The carbon you can change out monthly if you use it. The filter itself is where the beneficial bacteria lives, so throwing that away restarts your cycle. The general suggested practice here is when it looks like it is falling apart, put a new one next to it, and let them run together for about a month to seed the new filter, then throw out the old one. Others will chime in on the additional questions... gotta run!

 

Original tap water with strips was the highest possible number, I think an 8.something. I did get to take a sample to the pet store, and convinced a salesperson to use the API test kit, and she came up with 7.4. Right now, the Seachem sensor which is immersed in the tank is reading 6.6, by my best guess because some of the colors are hard for me to decipher. My water is coming up soft but not very soft, I can't remember the number but it's exactly in the soft area on the strips. The alkalinity is 40 on the strips. Nitrites and Nitrates are 0. However, I know the test strips are unreliable. The immersed Seachem ammonia sensor is still solidly in the 0-.25 range.

We'll just have to wait until your test comes as that is such a large difference between their reading and the sensor's reading.
As your ph comes back up, any ammonia reading is toxic, which is why I suggest using Seachem Prime for the full volume of the tank (explained below).

Ok, this is a part I don't understand. When I put water in the tank, I treat it in the one gallon jug I use to store it in. I add the amount of Seachem needed to treat one gallon of water. Are you saying, add the amount of Seachem needed for the entire twenty gallons in the tank? If so, I don't understand why it's done this way?

Prime can be dosed daily for the full volume of the tank to protect your fish from ammonia + nitrites readings for a total of 1.0ppm. While you have TSS in the tank, this won't work but eventually this is good to know for the future. I would do enough water changes to get your ammonia back to 0, and your ph back up before adding that next bottle of TSS+.

Also, another question--at this point, the cartridge in my filter (it says it's a Whisper, and it came with the tank) is about two weeks old, and I'm hearing that it needs to be changed at a month. Will it be able to survive until the cycling is complete?

Actually that is just a marketing ploy
You actually want to leave it in for as long as possible until its starting to fall apart. The reason is that the majority of your nitrifyers will reside on the filter padding. If you throw out your filter pad, you throw out your cycle. When you're ready to put in a new cartridge, cut the floss off around the old one, dump the carbon and frame, if there is one and put it in with the new cartridge for a week or two before tossing that piece of floss. That way it seeds the new media. Many of us just don't use the inserts and instead use sponge or foam purchased at the pet store and cut to fit the frames. A sponge can easily last a year with weekly rinsings in old tank or dechlorinated tap water.

Thank you!

Edit: Forgot to add that your alkalinity is too low. You can purchase crushed coral and put 1/2 cup in your filter box or scattered in the tank. Its usually with the substrates. Your other options are any type of shells like sea shells, coral shells, crab shells, also limestone pieces, or aragonite.
Let us know if you have more questions

 

This is the crushed coral I got last year at PetSmart to raise my KH and buffer my pH. It was with the substrate, just as CindiL mentioned.

 

I found a fish store with a good price on an API test kit, so we went ahead and bought it. The test results I got seem a little odd, but here they are:

High Range pH-- aquarium 7.4, tap 7.4
Ammonia-- 0.50ppm
Nitrite-- 0ppm
Nitrate-- 0ppm
I did do low range pH, both aquarium and tap came out at 7.6

I did one 25% water change, and added Seachem Prime for 20 gallons. The fish are acting normal and don't seem distressed.

 

I found a fish store with a good price on an API test kit, so we went ahead and bought it. The test results I got seem a little odd, but here they are:

High Range pH-- aquarium 7.4, tap 7.4
Ammonia-- 0.50ppm
Nitrite-- 0ppm
Nitrate-- 0ppm
I did do low range pH, both aquarium and tap came out at 7.6

I did one 25% water change, and added Seachem Prime for 20 gallons. The fish are acting normal and don't seem distressed.

The TSS cycle has unfortunately failed if that is your current readings I'm guessing because you added the TSS so quickly the beneficial bacteria got killed off, if you still want to do a fish in cycle you have 2 options

1. water change and dose with prime or tetras Aqua safe whatever you have then wait 24 hours and add another bottle of TSS and start the process all over again.

2. Pick up a bottle of Seachem Prime & Stability and cycle your tank using these 2 products which would mean you could do water changes since you dose the tank with both products every water change.

Just my 2 cents but I'm sure if I have anything wrong so,some else will chime in

 

I found a fish store with a good price on an API test kit, so we went ahead and bought it. The test results I got seem a little odd, but here they are:

High Range pH-- aquarium 7.4, tap 7.4
Ammonia-- 0.50ppm
Nitrite-- 0ppm
Nitrate-- 0ppm
I did do low range pH, both aquarium and tap came out at 7.6

I did one 25% water change, and added Seachem Prime for 20 gallons. The fish are acting normal and don't seem distressed.

Is this your tap or your tank? Will you test whichever one you didn't here and post ammonia, nitrites and nitrates for that also? If this is your tank then the TSS+ failed like BenMoffat said. Honestly with goldfish I think your better option is using prime along with Seachem Stability for the bacterial additive because you can do water changes with it. If you decide to go that route I can give you a simple formula to keep your fish safe and finish up the cycle.

 

Is this your tap or your tank? Will you test whichever one you didn't here and post ammonia, nitrites and nitrates for that also? If this is your tank then the TSS+ failed like BenMoffat said. Honestly with goldfish I think your better option is using prime along with Seachem Stability for the bacterial additive because you can do water changes with it. If you decide to go that route I can give you a simple formula to keep your fish safe and finish up the cycle.

Yes, please tell me how to use Seachem Stability to cycle my tank and keep my fish safe. Thank you, I appreciate it.

A whole lot of data follows. I swear I do research, but I don't seem to be grasping what I'm reading.

TAP WATER TESTS:
(API Master Kit)
Nitrate -- 0ppm
Nitrite -- 0ppm
Ammonia -- 0.25ppm
pH -- 8.2
(Test strips)
Nitrate -- 0ppm
Nitrite -- 0ppm
GH -- 75ppm
KH -- 40ppm
pH -- 8.4

TAP WATER STANDING OVERNIGHT:
(Test strips only)
Nitrate -- 0ppm
Nitrite -- 0ppm
GH -- 75ppm
KH -- 40ppm
pH -- 8.4

AQUARIUM:
(API Master kit)
Nitrate -- 0ppm
Nitrite -- 0ppm
Ammonia -- .50ppm
pH -- 7.4
(Test strips)
Nitrate -- 0ppm
Nitrite -- 0ppm
GH -- 75ppm
KH -- 40ppm
pH -- 7.8
(Seachem alerts)
Ammonia -- <0.02ppm
pH -- 6.6

I did a 25% water change again tonight, and dosed with Seachem Prime for the entire volume of my tank. All tests were performed 24 hours after the last water change and just before the current one.

ETA: all fish seem to be doing well and are active.

 

It was as I suspected your cycle has indeed failed likely because of what I said before with the adding of Aqua safe and then your TSS.
I have no experience with stability so I will leave CindiL to advise you on this.
But if you follow CindiLs advise when she replies you will have a great tank

 

From my little experience, stability is best used with prime. I've been doing a fish-in cycle as well and basically I've been dosing Prime every 24 hours or so (or on the days when I did water changes, dosing the whole tank worth in the new water) to keep the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, from harming my fish. And then using stability daily to help establish and strengthen a colony of BB in my filter.

I'm interested for Cin's input because I still don't know if this was the ideal way to do it, but it does seem to have worked and established a cycle in my tank!

 

Ok, thanks for posting all those numbers! You'll be a pro with the test kit
Just remember to always take nitrate bottle #2 and smack it against your hand or counter top for the 30 seconds before putting the drops in. The contents settle on that one and will give you a false low reading if this is not done.

Cycling with prime and stability: codyrex97 has the right idea

If ammonia + nitrites is less than 1.0 == dose prime for full volume of tank, dose stability and re-check in 24 hours.
If ammonia + nitrites is 1.0 or greater == do a large, 50% or more water change, dose prime for full volume of tank, dose stability and re-check in 24 hours.

If you do this, your fish will make it through the cycle safely and the bacteria in your filter and substrate will grow to accommodate your fish load.

You'll be cycled when you consistently have 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites and nitrates that are rising which you'll remove with water changes.

Your alkalinity is too low so I'd get the crushed coral at petsmart if there is one near you. For today mix in 1/4 tsp of baking soda with some tank water and add it to your tank. Do this with each water change until you can get the coral or limestone. This will help hold your ph by raising your KH a little bit.

 

Whew that is a lot of testing! Good job! I had to only test tank & tap both in one day and it made my head spin.

 

So. I live in a moderately sized city, with plenty of Petco's and Petsmarts and a couple of LFS. We went to Petco over the weekend, and the fish guy convinced my husband that all we needed to do was let nature take its course and sent us home with an ammonia-absorbing pad to put in our filter, a Tetra water conditioner, and a piece of driftwood with an Anubias on it. I'm ashamed to say that I tried to follow his directions. After two emotional days of watching the ammonia creep up and seeing no nitrites in response, I lost my control, did a water change, and dosed the whole tank with Prime.

So I just got home from Petsmart, where they didn't even have a fish person, and they recommended I use pH Down and not even worry about the alkalinity. At least I knew not to do that. I bought Stability, but I couldn't find crushed coral. I found a bag of sea shells, which I added to the tank in the hopes that it would help. I didn't know how many to put in so I guessed.

My alkalinity is at the lowest reading on my test strip. My pH has dropped so low that I'm using the low pH drops in my kit, and coming up with 7.2. My last water change was at about 10:30pm last night. When can I start adding Stability? Should I take the ammonia-absorbing pad out of my filter? Does the driftwood change anything, and do I need to remove it?

I did go to two LFS, they were really uninterested in people who keep goldfish.

 

Can't help you on the ph problem that is CindiL domain.

But the only thing I want to add is NEVER listen to people that work in the store especially if you have already got very detailed and specific help from the guys on here. 99% of the time the folk in the stores have not a clue about what they are talking about and are just interested in making as much money as they can off you. Whereas here they want you to succeed and have a nice tank.
Glad you finally got the stability and have started to at least cycle the tank, hopefully CindiL can help you with your other issue

 

The person at Petsmart also suggested that the Prime is messing up my alkalinity. I get that you're not supposed to listen to them now, but they always pounce the second I walk into the fish section. I've got "victim" tattooed on my forehead or something.

 

The person at Petsmart also suggested that the Prime is messing up my alkalinity. I get that you're not supposed to listen to them now, but they always pounce the second I walk into the fish section. I've got "victim" tattooed on my forehead or something.

If they pounce on you just say that you already know what your in to buy and don't require assistance

 

It takes me a while, but I eventually learn.

 

CindiL for cycling suggestions. What are your wAter parameters now? Prime & Stability are designed to work together so I would vote for one big water change using Prime, then start the stability and follow the instructions on the bottle.

 

CindiL did give me cycling suggestions, and the alkalinity has come up a bit since the shells went in. (Thank goodness!) I'll get tests later tonight, and that's when I'll do the water change and start the stability.

I'm wondering if it's safe to leave the driftwood and the ammonia-absorbing pad in there.

 

Hi, LOL on the prime causing you alkalinity issues. That's a first for hearing that one

You already had the best water conditioner. I can't believe they then sold you the tetra water conditioner. Ugh, I like to think its just ignorance which it probably is. They are trained about fish but as you're learning, unless you keep them yourself and run into and have to solve problems being told about fish keeping has little to do with actual fishkeeping.

When I had goldfish in my indoor aquarium I used to get the same indifference like somehow goldfish were a lesser species when in reality they should be labeled a difficult fish, especially the fancy varieties with all their odd breeding and what its done to their organs. I am setting up an above ground pond that should be coming next week! I bought four comet goldfish this last weekend and have them outside in a 30 gallon sterilite tub (doubled up) with their pond pump running. They were .29 cents a piece. That just shows you how they're looked at by their cost. They have such wonderful personalities in comparison to a lot of tropicals. I love my tropical tank but will enjoy having the goldfish outside.

Glad your alkalinity is coming up and you declined the ph down. You can start using the stability immediately and it can be used while you dose prime if you need to dose it daily, that's fine.

It won't hurt to leave the ammonia pad in there. The driftwood should be ok too.

 

No worries, I didn't even open the new conditioner, so it's easily returned.

The pond sounds exciting! I absolutely love my goldfish, and maybe I'm delusional, but I can see distinct personalities in each one.

I added the Stability tonight. My tests before that showed ammonia at .50 ppm and nitrites at 0 ppm, but I think the nitrate test was definitely showing a darker tinge. Boy are my arms tired from shaking test bottles!

 

No worries, I didn't even open the new conditioner, so it's easily returned.

The pond sounds exciting! I absolutely love my goldfish, and maybe I'm delusional, but I can see distinct personalities in each one.

I added the Stability tonight. My tests before that showed ammonia at .50 ppm and nitrites at 0 ppm, but I think the nitrate test was definitely showing a darker tinge. Boy are my arms tired from shaking test bottles!

A tip with the nitrate bottle 2 that I've found works for me, before you start testing everything take the second bottle and beat it on the ground a few times (enough to release the crystals in the bottom) then give it to someone else to shake for you while you test everything else and do the first bottle of the nitrate test, then just take it back when ready and add your drops
I normally get my wife to shake it or the kids works a treat as it allows it to be mixed properly before I need it

 

Well I'm a noob too so cannot comment on the chemical side (still learning) but gold fish are fairly smart fish and no, you're not delusional, each fish has its own 'personality'. You'll discover they also enjoy different toys/foods and interact with you differently.

Congrats on becoming a goldfish keeper expert!!!

 

I'm just going to comment on the fact that you are using the seachem alert thing for ammonia. The great thing about the seachem ammonia system is that it is the only one I know of that can be used to check for free ammonia separate from combined ammonia .

Free ammonia is what is bad for fish.

Combined ammonia is harmless to fish.

When you use Prime, and/or your pH is low, ammonia will exist as the ammonium form, and be harmless to the fish.

The API kit, and most others, read total ammonia. So you cannot tell if you're seeing harmful free ammonia, or harmless combined ammonia/ammonium. They show you the total of free + combined ammonia.

If you are using the Seachem ammonia test I'm thinking of, it can test for free OR total depending on how you use it. This is why your Seachem ammonia alert disagrees with your API kit.

But it's actually nice to use both. From your tests, we can see that the Prime is doing its job and binding the ammonia into an ammonia compound of some sort, rendering it harmless. The API test shows the total ammonia, and we see a higher reading. But your Seachem ammonia alert shows a very low ammonia reading because it only reponds to the free ammonia. That low free ammonia reading shows that your fish are actually safe due to the low free ammonia level.

I think it's very nice that you have both types of test. Most people only have the API test, and they get scared when they see the higher total ammonia readings, so they freak out and do unnecessary water changes.

As long as the Seachem ammonia alert shows a safe free ammonia level, the fish are fine.

But as you raise your alkalinity, the pH will go up. And as it does, this can shift the balance of ammonia to ammonium. And you may see a rise in free ammonia. In that case, you may want to dose additional Prime to bind that free ammonia, and/or do a water change with Prime. The key here is to keep the FREE ammonia at a safe level.

The chemist that I work with and I were talking about the whole ammonia/ammonium balance thing yesterday, and he raised an interesting question. He said that free ammonia exists as a gas. And this is how the Seachem testers work. They use a membrane that doesn't allow liquid to pass, but which allow gas to pass through. So only the free ammonia can reach the sensor.

His point was that the free ammonia can only exist at the limit of that gas's solubility in the water. And that limit is affected by temperature, just as any gas's limit of solubility depends on temperature. He also wondered if that ammonia gas could be stripped from the water by sparging. In other words, can using an airstone in the tank lower the free ammonia to some extent.

I'm not sure that would help. But it would be interesting to experiment with! Air sparging is used to lower the concentration of a lot of harmful gasses in water. Examples are chlorine, methane, hydrogen sulfide, etc. Why not ammonia?

So anyhow, it's great that you are monitoring for free ammonia so you know if you really do or do not have an ammonia problem.

And if you wanted to put an airstone in the tank, it can't hurt, and might help with everything. The extra water circulation that an airstone induces is great for getting good gas transfer, and keeping your water better oxygenated and less smelly by getting rid of some foul dissolved gasses.

Once your tank's filter(s) are cycled and full of good bacteria, you will only need to add enough Prime to treat the water in your water-change bottles, as you mentioned earlier. The reason for adding more now is to keep binding the free ammonia into the harmless ammonia compound that Prime creates.

And some people add enough Prime to dose the entire aquarium with every water change because they do not pre-treat their water-change water. Instead, they dose the whole aquarium with enough to treat that whole volume, and then they use a hose directly from the faucet to put in the new water. The extra Prime makes sure that the chlorine or chloramine right from the tap gets sequestered well so their fish are safe. If you pre treat your tap water before adding it to the tank, that extra dose is not necessary (once your filters are cycled). I hope that makes sense!

 

No worries, I didn't even open the new conditioner, so it's easily returned.

The pond sounds exciting! I absolutely love my goldfish, and maybe I'm delusional, but I can see distinct personalities in each one.

I added the Stability tonight. My tests before that showed ammonia at .50 ppm and nitrites at 0 ppm, but I think the nitrate test was definitely showing a darker tinge. Boy are my arms tired from shaking test bottles!

Just remember the only one that needs to be shaken is nitrate #2. I usually just bang it on the palm of my hand for 30 seconds or the counter top before using it and it works fine then.

As always Jsigmo has a lot of great information to add or explain. What he mentioned about temperature and free ammonia is true. Here is a chart that shows how much ammonia is free in a given ph and temperature. That's another nice thing about having cold water fish like goldfish is the tanks are usually cooler depending on where you live so safer while cycling.




I used to keep only fancy goldfish and when I ended up having to euthanize them one by one after a few years due to terrible swim bladder problems, it broke my heart and I switched to community fish. Its easy to get attached to one or two huge fish with such big personalities. Cichlids have great personalities like that too.

 

So, I already messed up. CindiL I added Stability but I forgot to dose Prime first. I'm really very sick tonight and I don't know why I forgot, but I don't know if it's too late. Ammonia was .50 ppm, Nitrites were 0 ppm, Nitrates were 0ppm. I don't understand the chemistry stuff, is there anyone who can tell me if I should dose Prime? And if so, should I re-dose Stability? Please and thank you.

 

Yes dose prime and no, you don't need to re-dose stability. They're meant to work together.

Feel better!

 

Thank very much for the late-night advice, CindiL! I appreciated your response, it helped me rest easy.

Now, I have some not-urgent questions:

I'm just going to comment on the fact that you are using the seachem alert thing for ammonia. The great thing about the seachem ammonia system is that it is the only one I know of that can be used to check for free ammonia separate from combined ammonia .

I *am* using it, but it has never changed. Even in the few days when I was using a different water conditioner, it didn't change. My API kit was showing 1.0ppm but the Seachem Alert didn't change. I'm kind of wondering if it works at all. One of my goldfish, who was pure gold before, got black streaks on his fins and I could not stand the thought of ammonia burns so I immediately switched back to Prime, but my alert never even twitched into another color.

When you use Prime, and/or your pH is low, ammonia will exist as the ammonium form, and be harmless to the fish.

The API kit, and most others, read total ammonia. So you cannot tell if you're seeing harmful free ammonia, or harmless combined ammonia/ammonium. They show you the total of free + combined ammonia.

Yes, but I thought that the Prime broke down after 24hrs, allowing the API test to take accurate readings? I've been trying to be very conscious of time when testing, is it unnecessary?

I admit that I'm not strong at chemistry.

But as you raise your alkalinity, the pH will go up. And as it does, this can shift the balance of ammonia to ammonium. And you may see a rise in free ammonia. In that case, you may want to dose additional Prime to bind that free ammonia, and/or do a water change with Prime. The key here is to keep the FREE ammonia at a safe level.

Yup, you lost me. I'm trying. I think part of it is vocabulary. By ammonia, do you mean, actually, all ammonia in the water? Then, by ammonium, do you mean ammonia that has been bound to something else? And free ammonia is the ammonia remaining after ammonia has been formed?

Air sparging is used to lower the concentration of a lot of harmful gasses in water. Examples are chlorine, methane, hydrogen sulfide, etc. Why not ammonia?

So anyhow, it's great that you are monitoring for free ammonia so you know if you really do or do not have an ammonia problem.

And if you wanted to put an airstone in the tank, it can't hurt, and might help with everything. The extra water circulation that an airstone induces is great for getting good gas transfer, and keeping your water better oxygenated and less smelly by getting rid of some foul dissolved gasses.

Okay, I think I understand this, but, I thought that airstones didn't really add oxygen to the water? I thought that they increased oxygenation by disturbing the surface of the water? I don't currently have an airstone, because I didn't think they were necessary equipment, and I had to prioritize my budget. Are airstones different or better than decorations that bubble?

I'm sorry, I just don't understand how to interpret the chart you posted, CindiL. If it is saying that less ammonia is "free" at lower temperature, can you tell me why that is? Why do pH and temperature affect ammonia?

Thank you!

 

I'll try and answer some of the questions above.

I don't know the chemistry formulas of why it happens, just that it does. The chart is a really handy tool to know when ammonia is toxic, how much is toxic and at what temperature and ph. I like the chart because you don't have to "know" how much is free, just the total and it will show you the free aka toxic amounts.

So at a ph of 8.0 and lets say 24c which is 75 degrees farenheit up to .40 on the apI test would be not toxic to your fish but as the numbers begin to climb up towards 1.0 then the amount in your water column quickly turns toxic. In comparison someone with a ph of 7.5 wouldn't begin to read toxic ammonia amounts until its close 1.5 reading on the apI test. Not trying to confuse you. I find the chart handy. People with ph in the 7's have a higher room for error with ammonia then you do at a ph of 8.0.

Free ammonia is the ammonia at a given ph and temperature that is unbound or toxic.

Prime puts the ammonia into a detoxified state up to 1.0 which gives a little wiggle room with water changes. Prime doesn't change your readings because the apI test cannot distinguish between free and total ammonia. It puts into that non-toxified state by binding it, thus it is no longer free and unable to harm your fish. So what I'm trying to say here is whether you dose prime or not the apI will still read it as the same because it cannot distinguish between free and bound, it only gives totals. There are other test kits that can but I don't think they're necessary. Seachem makes one. You just have to know that if the apI test kit shows ammonia at 1.0, then its time to do a water change because dosing prime daily it can only detoxify 1.0 ammonia + nitrites. If its less then 1.0 then it will be able to hold that amount in the detoxified bound state.

You don't need an airstone and yes a bubbler is the same thing. I think he was just suggesting it as more of a thought about ammonia and if it has the ability to de-gas. Don't worry about it

 

Thank you! That definitely helped me get an "Aha!" moment. So, am I understanding right if I say that Prime doesn't kill the bacteria that eats ammonia and nitrites, but it turns ammonia and nitrites into a form that the bacteria can't eat? And is that why you can't use TSS+ for 24 hours after dosing with Prime?

 

Prime most definitely does not kill the bacteria. The bacteria can consume ammonia or ammonium, prime simply puts it into the ammonium state when your ph is higher.

Ha, the question of why TSS+ cannot be used within 24 hours has really never been answered and one I'm not totally clear on. Tetra states that anything that binds ammonia somehow starves their bacteria (which doesn't make sense to me). As far as actual time limitations I've seen different things on their web site, I should re-check because I don't really think it needs to be 24 hours.

 

Thank very much for the late-night advice, CindiL! I appreciated your response, it helped me rest easy.

Now, I have some not-urgent questions:



I *am* using it, but it has never changed. Even in the few days when I was using a different water conditioner, it didn't change. My API kit was showing 1.0ppm but the Seachem Alert didn't change. I'm kind of wondering if it works at all. One of my goldfish, who was pure gold before, got black streaks on his fins and I could not stand the thought of ammonia burns so I immediately switched back to Prime, but my alert never even twitched into another color.

Here's a little writeup about ammonia and ammonium:

http://www.differencebetween.net/science/difference-between-ammonia-and-ammonium/

Here's a good explanation:

https://web.utk.edu/~rstrange/wfs556/html-content/05-ammonia.html

I'm not a chemist, so I am really not the best person to explain all of this, but:

Assuming that you're using the Seachem ammonia alert gadget I'm thinking of, what you've observed makes sense.

The Seachem Ammonia Alert gets placed in the aquarium, below the waterline. I believe it uses a membrane that lets free ammonia through, but which blocks water and ammonium, perhaps simply because the ammonium cannot off-gas from the water, and thus is not free to penetrate into the color-changing "sensor" in the Ammonia Alert.

So the result is that the Ammonia Alert only responds to "free ammonia" (which is NH3, or one Nitrogen atom bonded to three Hydrogen atoms).

And since aquatic critters are only affected by "free ammonia" (NH3), this is what we want to watch out for.

In your case, your fish have never been in any danger if the Ammonia Alert is installed correctly, is working, and has never shown a problem.

So the various treatments you've used, or the temperature, or the pH of your aquarium, or a combination of all of those, has made sure that you have had little or no "free ammonia" (NH3). So that's great.

But, you've also tested with the API kit. And that test responds to forms of ammonia other than "free ammonia". It responds to ammonium (NH4) (it's got four hydrogen atoms instead of just three), and it probably also responds to the compounds that Prime and other treatment chemicals make when they react with free ammonia.

Different treatment chemicals (Prime, and others) use different chemicals to "bind" (combine with) the "free ammonia" (NH3). Free Ammonia (NH3) is quite reactive. That makes it easy for it to form compounds with other things, and it's also what makes it toxic.

But once it's combined with some certain other chemicals, the compounds formed are non-toxic.

When you add "free ammonia" to water, some of the ammonia molecules immediately steal Hydrogen atoms from the water molecules, thus forming Ammonium (NH4) molecules. But not necessarily all of the NH3 steals hydrogens from the water. Some may remain "free ammonia" (NH3).

And this is what that chart that CindI posted is taking about.

At higher temperatures, with the same amount of ammonia added to the water, more of that ammonia will exist as "free ammonia" (NH3).

At higher pH, with the same amount of ammonia added to the water, more of that ammonia will exist as "free ammonia" (NH3).

The balance or proportion between those two "species" of ammonia compounds shifts back and forth based on pH and temperature.

The chart CindI posted shows the concentration of "total ammonia" that results in toxicity to fish for different pH and temperature. You can see that you're allowed to have a lot more "total ammonia" or TAN (total ammonia nitrogen, as one particular lab test calls it) if the pH is low and/or the temperature is low.

But we're talking about what happens in water with "pure" ammonia added to it. You will always have a blend of NH3 and NH4 when ammonia is mixed with water. The proportions between those two "species" of ammonia will vary depending on pH and temperature.

But an important point is that only "free ammonia" (NH3) will harm your fish.

So, if your tank pH is quite low, say pH = 6, then you could add a LOT of ammonia to the tank, and the fish would be fine because almost all of that ammonia would immediately combine with Hydrogen atoms stolen from water molecules, and become NH4 (ammonium).

And if your tank temperature is quite low, then the same would be true.

But at higher pH and higher temperature, a greater proportion of any ammonia added to the tank will exist as "free ammonia" (NH3) molecules. And since it's that NH3 that's harmful, your fish will be in danger.


The products (like Prime) that we add to treat our aquarium water often contain compounds that have a great affinity for ammonia, and they combine with the "free ammonia" and also the ammonium, to form even different compounds that are safe for the fish. The ammonia/ammonium is then said to be "bound" into those new compounds that form.

Your fish have been safe because of the pH and temperature, or because of one or more of the treatment products you've used, or the combination of all of those things.

You can use the Ammonia Alert to tell you when you need to either do a water change or add more treatment product (like prime).

And you can (probably) use the API ammonia test to tell you how much total ammonia (the total of free and combined ammonia compounds) is present in the tank. I say (probably) because it's possible that some of these treatment products create compounds that the API test kit cannot "unlock" and read.

In general, I think the API test will show all of the ammonia compounds. But I can't say that for sure. Some treatment products may create compounds that render the ammonia in them "invisible" to the test.

Yes, but I thought that the Prime broke down after 24hrs, allowing the API test to take accurate readings? I've been trying to be very conscious of time when testing, is it unnecessary?

I admit that I'm not strong at chemistry.

I think the API test can read the ammonia compounds that Prime creates with ammonia. So theoretically, you would get the same reading for ammonia before and after dosing with prime because the free ammonia isn't destroyed by Prime, it's just "locked up" for a while, in new (and safe) compounds.

And assuming that more ammonia isn't introduced into the tank for the next few days, you might get that same reading with the API kit after a few days, too. The ammonia that had been locked up by the Prime, might just be released again, and form free ammonia and ammonium just as it started before you added the Prime.

I don't understand why this is supposed to happen, actually. I would have thought that once the Prime bound up the ammonia, the compounds it creates would be long-lasting. But everyone says that it only lasts for a day or two. Hmmm.

But the main point I want to make about using the API ammonia test is that It does NOT show you whether or not your fish are in danger!

It just shows the total of both combined (safe) ammonia compounds and free (dangerous) ammonia. You don't know the proportion, so you don't know if things are safe or unsafe.

But it's still quite useful because, when an aquarium is well established (cycled), the bacteria eat all of the ammonia almost as fast as it's excreted by the fish. So ideally, you will get to where you read NO or extremely low total ammonia with the API test.

The Seachem Ammonia Alert, on the other hand only shows the "dangerous" free ammonia. Where it lacks is that it cannot show you the ammonium or other ammonia compounds that may be in the tank. So while it shows you when the fish are safe or unsafe, it doesn't tell you how much total ammonia may be present.

It's nice to know both figures, actually. They're both very important! So it's neat that you have both.

Yup, you lost me. I'm trying. I think part of it is vocabulary. By ammonia, do you mean, actually, all ammonia in the water? Then, by ammonium, do you mean ammonia that has been bound to something else? And free ammonia is the ammonia remaining after ammonia has been formed?

Ammonia, technically, is NH3. But people use the term "ammonia" to refer to both free and combined, and total ammonia, so it's kind of useless without the context of the article or remark.

Ammonium is ONE of the many possible compounds made by combining other things with ammonia. In this case, ammonium is NH4. It's just got an extra hydrogen ion added to it.

That second article above explains this far better than I can, but basically, if you have water and ammonia mixed, you will have both free ammonia (NH3) and ammonium (NH4). The proportions will depend on the pH and temperature. It can shift back and forth.

Okay, I think I understand this, but, I thought that airstones didn't really add oxygen to the water? I thought that they increased oxygenation by disturbing the surface of the water? I don't currently have an airstone, because I didn't think they were necessary equipment, and I had to prioritize my budget. Are airstones different or better than decorations that bubble?

There is a lot of misunderstanding about this.

For a given amount of air being pumped down into water, and rising as bubbles, the finer the bubbles, the more effective they are at transferring gas directly from the bubbles to and from the water. You can envision this as the distances things need to travel within the bubbles being far shorter if the bubbles are tiny.

Let's say a bubble takes one second to move up to the surface and burst. Now let's say that bubble is one inch in diameter. As the bubble contacts the water, gas trying to move from the bubble into the water or vice-versa can only really do this in that small zone near the surface of the bubble. Gasses farther inside of the bubble aren't really in contact with the water, and again, vice-versa.

So gas transfer is better with tiny bubbles.

And maybe more importantly, tiny bubbles create more friction against the water as they try to rise. Thus, they "pump" more water upwards as they rise.

What most people don't realize is that the main reason for using an airstone is to circulate the water in the tank from the bottom up to the surface, creating a current, and consequentially, stirring of the water.

Place an airstone in a tank of water, and observe the surface of the water right where the cloud of bubbles reaches the surface. If you look, you will see that the surface of the water there is actually pushed upwards above the level of the surrounding water. This is because of all of the water that is also being carried upwards by the friction of the bubbles rising through (and with) the water. You can see the result of that current of water aimed straight up at the surface where the bubbles burst.

So wherever you place an airstone, water will be pumped upwards from that point to the surface. Once that water reaches the surface, it has to flow outwards from there, and this sets up a current or flow within the tank. It's just as if you had a pump down where the airstone is located, pointed upwards, blowing the water up there.

So you can place the airstone where you want to set up a current of upward-flowing water. And by placing it thoughtfully, you can set up circulation to take place the way you want. I like to put an airstone or two down at one of the right or left ends of my 55 gallon tanks. I stick them to the tank end, down deep, with a suction cup. The air bubbles rising at that end of the tank creates a circulation from the bottom of the tank at that end, flowing out across the top surface, and then down when it hits the far end of the tank, and then along the bottom, and finally back to the airstone. So the tank is constantly being stirred.

But you can set up the flow to be any way you want by selecting where you place the airstone. You can see how the water circulates by following the paths of small particles of food or whatever.

As the water carried upwards by the bubbles spreads out over the surface of the tank, you'll see the current flowing away from that area. That current stirs the tank, and exposes water from deep in the tank (where you put the airstone) to the top surface of the tank over and over. And that accounts for a large part of the gas transfer, too.

The finer the bubbles, the more "air lift" (or pumping efficiency) of the water you get for a given amount of air being pumped. So good quality, fine bubble airstones give you more bang for your air-pump-buck.

People used to be very aware of this when they used undergravel filters, and small sponge or box filters. Those units usually just use an air pump and airstones to do the "pumping". So everyone who had an aquarium back then had kind of a "gut feel" for this effect.

Also, if you ever watched a movie or show where they were looking for treasure on the bottom of the ocean, you may have seen them use an "air lift" to clear away the sediment from the area they're exploring. It's a convenient way to "vacuum" the bottom of the sea floor where you're prospecting for that sunken treasure!

Anyhow, the concept of "air lift" in water is often used. And the smaller the bubbles, the more efficient the system. I was just at a water treatment conference, and went to a presentation from one of the vendors who sells gadgets that you place on the bottoms of lakes, and feed with compressors on shore. These produce millions of tiny bubbles, and they're used to stir these lakes to prevent stratification, etc. It's a cheap, easy to maintain, and very effective way to "stir up" a whole lake constantly. They had a lot of data to show that their units produced finer bubbles than their competition's systems, and then showing how much more stirring you got, even using far lower horsepower compressors. And that saves a lot of money.

I'm sorry, I just don't understand how to interpret the chart you posted, CindiL. If it is saying that less ammonia is "free" at lower temperature, can you tell me why that is? Why do pH and temperature affect ammonia?

Thank you!

Yes. You've got that right.

Less of the ammonia is "free" at lower temperatures.

Likewise, less of the ammonia is "free" at lower pH.

I do like this article:

https://web.utk.edu/~rstrange/wfs556/html-content/05-ammonia.html

Prime most definitely does not kill the bacteria. The bacteria can consume ammonia or ammonium, prime simply puts it into the ammonium state when your ph is higher.

Ha, the question of why TSS+ cannot be used within 24 hours has really never been answered and one I'm not totally clear on. Tetra states that anything that binds ammonia somehow starves their bacteria (which doesn't make sense to me). As far as actual time limitations I've seen different things on their web site, I should re-check because I don't really think it needs to be 24 hours.

I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. The way I understand it, Prime binds the ammonia, but it forms a compound that isn't ammonium. It's something more complex, I believe. Maybe a sulfur/ammonia compound. I'm not sure, and I think they keep it somewhat secret for trade reasons.

We can only speculate about the interaction between TSS and Prime. None of them really seem to want to explain things in any great detail. Maybe it's a trade secrets thing, or they just think it'd confuse us.

But it really does seem like Tetra is saying that their bacteria will starve if the ammonia they need to eat ends up bound by some of these treatment chemicals.

This is all speculation, but:

I wonder if they package some kind of special ammonia compound right in with the TSS to keep the bacteria alive, but it's something that is harmless to fish (another fancy ammonia compound of some sort) yet can be broken down by their particular bacteria. Then, when you dump in the TSS, their edible-yet-safe ammonia compound is in the tank with their bacteria to keep it fed until it can attach to the surfaces.

And perhaps if you have a fresh dose of Prime in the tank, it tears apart their carefully-designed edible ammonia compound, and binds the ammonia into something harder to break down. And that ends up starving the bacteria.

The fact that Seachem's Stability is supposed to be OK with Prime may mean that they're using different species of bacteria who can eat the ammonia compound created by Prime.

Beats me!

 

Just remember the only one that needs to be shaken is nitrate #2. I usually just bang it on the palm of my hand for 30 seconds or the counter top before using it and it works fine then.

As always Jsigmo has a lot of great information to add or explain. What he mentioned about temperature and free ammonia is true. Here is a chart that shows how much ammonia is free in a given ph and temperature. That's another nice thing about having cold water fish like goldfish is the tanks are usually cooler depending on where you live so safer while cycling.

View attachment 197710

I used to keep only fancy goldfish and when I ended up having to euthanize them one by one after a few years due to terrible swim bladder problems, it broke my heart and I switched to community fish. Its easy to get attached to one or two huge fish with such big personalities. Cichlids have great personalities like that too.

I need the link to this chart so I can print it for work. We have 8.2 pH water here and I can't get people to understand how serious .25/.50 ammonia readings are despite their test strips chart saying it's safe.

 

According to Tetra, no water conditioner which removes chloramines can be used less than 24 hours before adding SafeStart. And as far as I know, all water conditioners remove chloramine. Many people mistakenly think it is only Prime that cannot be used, when in reality it is all water conditioners which cannot be used.

 

I need the link to this chart so I can print it for work. We have 8.2 pH water here and I can't get people to understand how serious .25/.50 ammonia readings are despite their test strips chart saying it's safe.

Here you go

According to Tetra, no water conditioner which removes chloramines can be used less than 24 hours before adding SafeStart. And as far as I know, all water conditioners remove chloramine. Many people mistakenly think it is only Prime that cannot be used, when in reality it is all water conditioners which cannot be used.

Thanks for mentioning that. I thought it was only ammonia binding products....

And that's the weird thing, if you are using their aqua safe product they say to wait "at least" 15 minutes???? before putting in TSS+. I'll find some of those Q&A because there is a huge difference between 15 minutes and 24 hours!

 

I used SafeStart for the first time, when it first came out. Back then it came with instructions on the bottle. At that time it recommended using Tetra AquaSafe as you water conditioner and there was no talk of having to wait to add the TSS.

But then they stopped printing instructions on the bottle, and Lucy at some point after that had email Tetra. That email was turned into the Q&A with Tetra thread. And in that email exchange is where it was written to wait 24 hours after the use of any water conditioner which removes chloramines.

https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/q-a-with-tetra-about-tetra-safestart.58116/

 

I wonder if they package some kind of special ammonia compound right in with the TSS

According to my e-mail exchange with Tetra they use a "special stabilized solution of ammonia"

Also is our Q & A sticky they use the words "Kill" not "starve" in regards to products that bond or remove ammonia and chloramines.

 

Where are the Q&A threads, are they available in the app? I'm having difficulty finding them.

 

According to my e-mail exchange with Tetra they use a "special stabilized solution of
ammonia"

Also is our Q & A sticky they use the words "Kill" not "starve" in regards to products that bond or remove ammonia and chloramines.

So their "stabilized ammonia" must be a safe-for-fish ammonia compound. And I'll bet that the API ammonia test reads that ammonia compound, and reports high ammonia just from the TSS itself.

So people use the API test, see high ammonia, panic (not realizing that it is actually a safe ammonia compound) and do water changes or add things like Prime. And that kills off the bacteria (presumably by starving it).

I think more people should use the Seachem Ammonia Alert when cycling with TSS, and ignore, or don't use, the API or other ammonia tests that report total ammonia.

It boggles the mind to imagine how many TSS cycles may have been wrecked because people don't know the difference between free and bound ammonia, and neither do their test kits.

And this is almost certainly why Tetra says that you shouldn't test at all for two weeks when using TSS. Of course, they'll never recommend the Seachem Ammonia Alert, or the Seachem ammonia test that uses the same technology, because Seachem is their competitor.

But I do think using TSS along with the Seachem ammonia test would be a successful combination.

I've cycled several tanks using TSS, but I can't resist testing. But I have avoided doing water changes and adding treatment products, and the cycles always worked just fine for me, and usually were complete in three weeks.

But that's with my water here, and my fish, and my tanks, filters, etc. So everyone will see differences, of course.

 

I used SafeStart for the first time, when it first came out. Back then it came with instructions on the bottle. At that time it recommended using Tetra AquaSafe as you water conditioner and there was no talk of having to wait to add the TSS.

But then they stopped printing instructions on the bottle, and Lucy at some point after that had email Tetra. That email was turned into the Q&A with Tetra thread. And in that email exchange is where it was written to wait 24 hours after the use of any water conditioner which removes chloramines.

https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/q-a-with-tetra-about-tetra-safestart.58116/

Way back when, in the 1970s, chloramines were not so common in water treatment. And a number of "dechlorinators" were available. These worked only on chlorine. Usually, they were just sodium thiosulfate.

Over the years, chloramines have become more and more common as the secondary disinfectant in drinking water treatment. So the manufacturers have responded by adding other chemicals to their "Water Treatments" to bind the ammonia that is liberated when the sodium thiosulfate "grabs" the chlorine atoms away from the chloramines.

It may well be that Tetra's old AquaSafe was only sodium thiosulfate, and thus, perfectly safe for their TSS. But I'll bet that newer AquaSafe has a chemical in it to combine with ammonia, now, because so many water systems use chloramines. You just about wouldn't dare to sell people plain sodium thiosulfate these days.

 

It may well be that Tetra's old AquaSafe was only sodium thiosulfate

Since I don't know the scientific jargon if you're saying Aqua Safe would only remove chlorine few years back (not chloramines) you are correct. Same with stress coat I believe.

I remember that...sigh LOL

 

Where are the Q&A threads, are they available in the app? I'm having difficulty finding them.

Sorry Mothercrow, I missed your post.
Here is the link:
https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/q-a-with-tetra-about-tetra-safestart.58116/

If you have trouble following the link it is a stick under
More Freshwater Aquarium Topics -> Aquarium Water ->Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle

 

Since I don't know the scientific jargon if you're saying Aqua Safe would only remove chlorine few years back (not chloramines) you are correct. Same with stress coat I believe.

I remember that...sigh LOL

Yep. Us old folks remember those days!

I used to buy Stress Coat in the gallon jugs, and split it up with my fish-tank friends.

At the water plant where I work, we use plain old chlorine. So that community doesn't need the extra stuff to sequester the ammonia from chloramines. You probably can't find any water conditioners that won't treat chloramines these days. But I've bought sodium thiosulfate from chemical suppliers to use on our chlorinated water here.

It comes as crystals. I just weigh them out and make up a working solution.

Interstingly, some regulatory agencies now require that any chlorine in water be neutralized before it can be discharged into storm sewers, etc., that may lead to waterways. So the guys who flush the distribution system lines (flushing fire hydrants) have to neutralize the chlorine in that water.

They can use sodium thiosulfate. But guess what is used more often? Ascorbic acid! Yep. That's plain old vitamin C!

So vitamin C is a dechlorinator. But it would probably lower the pH of your tank, so we probably shouldn't try it.