Internal parasite meds

Shrimp42
  • #1
I have a platy that I purchased about 3 weeks ago and when I did I could tell he had internal worms due to his long stringy white threadlike poop. I did 2 rounds of Prazipro as I've been told its the best dewormer and I plopped him in the main tank after treatment since he was fine besides that. Yesterday I was feeding and noticed that his poop looked the same as it did only shorter. He's still very active and eats. I am doing another round of prazipro and then after 7 days I will repeat the dose to kill the babies. What is confusing me is I did 2 courses of prazi in the quarantine tank and he's still showing this poop. I've read that praziquantel doesn't take care of all internal parasites so maybe that's it? Is there a dewormer that contains praziquantel, metronidazole, and levamisole in one? Surely that would knock out the internal parasites.
 
Zonotrichia
  • #2
API General Cure and Fritz ParaCleanse both include praziquantel/metronidazole, but I haven't heard of one that combines all three. As a datapoint, I've been treating a guppy with ParaCleanse for internal parasites (tapeworm, fun) for the past week—two doses thus far, then will repeat in 2 weeks—and I'm still seeing the long stringy poop. (Twice the length of his little body!) I am hoping that it just takes a while for their GI tracts to become less inflamed and calm down.
 
Shrimp42
  • Thread Starter
  • #3
API General Cure and Fritz ParaCleanse both include praziquantel/metronidazole, but I haven't heard of one that combines all three. As a datapoint, I've been treating a guppy with ParaCleanse for internal parasites (tapeworm, fun) for the past week—two doses thus far, then will repeat in 2 weeks—and I'm still seeing the long stringy poop. (Twice the length of his little body!) I am hoping that it just takes a while for their GI tracts to become less inflamed and calm down.
I've used general cure but it contains a lot less praziquantel then prazipro and the prazi in general cure and Paracleanse isn't water soluble so its not as effective. General cure can work though as its worked for me in the past, but I've just stuck with prazipro due to the fact that it contains a higher concentration of praziquantel.
 
Zonotrichia
  • #4
Paracleanse isn't water soluble so its not as effective.

Interesting, I haven't heard that before. And General Cure is water soluble (or more so)? Everything I'd read had led me to believe that the two meds virtually identical, with the same active ingredients and formulation.
 
Shrimp42
  • Thread Starter
  • #5
Interest, I haven't heard that before. And General Cure is water soluble (or more so)? Everything I'd read had led me to believe that the two meds virtually identical, with the same active ingredients and formulation.
What I mean is metronidazole is water soluble, but praziquantel isn't. PraziPro has an agent in it thats makes the praziquantel water soluble, while general cure/Paracleanse does not.
 
Cinabar
  • #6
What I mean is metronidazole is water soluble, but praziquantel isn't. PraziPro has an agent in it thats makes the praziquantel water soluble, while general cure/Paracleanse does not.
The praziquantel in General Cure is absolutely water soluble, you just have to work for it haha. Shake it around in a bottle of water for a bit, it will dissolve eventually.
 
Zonotrichia
  • #7
What I mean is metronidazole is water soluble, but praziquantel isn't. PraziPro has an agent in it thats makes the praziquantel water soluble, while general cure/Paracleanse does not.

Got it, that makes sense and lines up with what I thought! Sorry to derail your thread
 
Shrimp42
  • Thread Starter
  • #8
The praziquantel in General Cure is absolutely water soluble, you just have to work for it haha. Shake it around in a bottle of water for a bit, it will dissolve eventually.
Huh, I didn't know that. I always read that it wasn't, I'm going to test that out.

The praziquantel in General Cure is absolutely water soluble, you just have to work for it haha. Shake it around in a bottle of water for a bit, it will dissolve eventually.
"Metro is easily water-soluble, but prazi is not. So I've been wondering just how the praziquantel found in General Cure works, being it's a powdered medication. Prazipro, the most widely used medication containing praziquantel, is a liquid that uses Oxybispropanol as an inert solubilizing agent. I've also read that powder praziquantel should be dissolved using a small amount of ethyl alcohol or even common vodka before dosing your tank (Oxybispropanol satisfies this requirement.)" This is where I found the information, from another forum. They go into more detail if you want to read it yourself, here's the link API General Cure
 
Cinabar
  • #9
"Metro is easily water-soluble, but prazi is not. So I've been wondering just how the praziquantel found in General Cure works, being it's a powdered medication. Prazipro, the most widely used medication containing praziquantel, is a liquid that uses Oxybispropanol as an inert solubilizing agent. I've also read that powder praziquantel should be dissolved using a small amount of ethyl alcohol or even common vodka before dosing your tank (Oxybispropanol satisfies this requirement.)" This is where I found the information, from another forum. They go into more detail if you want to read it yourself, here's the link API General Cure

The key word here is “easily”. Praziquantel has a low solubility in water, but I can say for certain that it is at least somewhat soluble. What I usually do is dissolve a packet of General Cure into a one-liter bottle and shake that thing around until there are no more granules. It usually takes a few minutes.

I quickly searched up a few data sheets for praziquantel and found that it is most soluble in ethanol (max concentration at about 5000mg/L) but also soluble in water, although much less (400mg/L). Considering that a packet of GC contains 75mg of prazi, and I was able to fully dissolve it in a liter of water, everything checks out, yay!

And this might be overkill, but the chemistry nerd in me doth protests- the premixing with alcohol only works because prazi is indeed soluble in water. If it wasn’t, it would immediately turn back into solid form when added to the tank because there isn’t a high enough concentration of solvent. Ok I’ll shut up now thanks

Edit- sources if you’re interested:
NLM ChemID
Laboratory Safety Summary
Chembook Database
 
JenC
  • #10
Is there a dewormer that contains praziquantel, metronidazole, and levamisole in one?
Not to my knowledge. I dose Prazipro and levamisole hcl separately during QT.
 
John58ford
  • #11
I have tried all the meds listed here (so far) on a couple different parasites/nematodes. The only one I have had consistent good luck with is the levamisol. The med is light sensitive so I usually go dark while I treat. I dose it at .1 gram per 10 gallons, wait 24 hours after first dose, vacuum and redose, wait 24 hours, vacuum, wait 24, vacuum heavily and put in carbon for a week.

Most of these meds don't actually kill the parasites but paralyze them, the eggs they may have left in the fish, or substrate are still viable. If you have a hard to vacuum tank, it might take you a couple rounds to get the eggs. I usually wait about 2 weeks after the first treatment, then go again whether symptoms are visible or not.

If you haven't tried levamisol yet, I would give it a try; it's pennies on the dollar cheaper per treatment and recommended by several live bearer specialist I have followed. So far, I haven't managed to hurt my cycle, snails, or plants with it, and have used it in many tanks.
 
Shrimp42
  • Thread Starter
  • #12
I have tried all the meds listed here (so far) on a couple different parasites/nematodes. The only one I have had consistent good luck with is the levamisol. The med is light sensitive so I usually go dark while I treat. I dose it at .1 gram per 10 gallons, wait 24 hours after first dose, vacuum and redose, wait 24 hours, vacuum, wait 24, vacuum heavily and put in carbon for a week.

Most of these meds don't actually kill the parasites but paralyze them, the eggs they may have left in the fish, or substrate are still viable. If you have a hard to vacuum tank, it might take you a couple rounds to get the eggs. I usually wait about 2 weeks after the first treatment, then go again whether symptoms are visible or not.

If you haven't tried levamisol yet, I would give it a try; it's pennies on the dollar cheaper per treatment and recommended by several live bearer specialist I have followed. So far, I haven't managed to hurt my cycle, snails, or plants with it, and have used it in many tanks.
Okay I'll give it a shot. Could you link me the kind you buy?

I found some at tractor supply co and its labeled as goat dewormer but it contains levamisol. My question now is will this work? I'm also curious as to whether metronidazole is even effective unless mixed with food and injested by the fish.
 
John58ford
  • #13
Levamed is the type I use. I purchased mine from select aquatics, they shipped it to me very fast. I just checked their website to make sure they are still around (small business) and they now have a kit than includes a nice storage container and a tiny spoon. I have a tiny scale, but if you don't the kits probably worth the extra few dollars.

Here's a link to them. I know it's kind of tricky to buy it because it's not really profitable for api to repack it as cheap as it is.

"Levamisole" Levamisole

I don't know how quick they are shipping right now, I haven't used them since last winter.
 
Shrimp42
  • Thread Starter
  • #14
Levamed is the type I use. I purchased mine from select aquatics, they shipped it to me very fast. I just checked their website to make sure they are still around (small business) and they now have a kit than includes a nice storage container and a tiny spoon. I have a tiny scale, but if you don't the kits probably worth the extra few dollars.

Here's a link to them. I know it's kind of tricky to buy it because it's not really profitable for api to repack it as cheap as it is.

"Levamisole" Levamisole

I don't know how quick they are shipping right now, I haven't used them since last winter.
Do you think this would work as well? Its 52 grams for 25 bucks. It has reviews saying they used it in their aquariums and it worked.
 

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JenC
  • #15
I got mine off eBay but I believe it's also available on Amazon. Some sources are listed in the links. I administer to the killing dose of 13 ppm.
 
John58ford
  • #16
Do you think this would work as well? Its 52 grams for 25 bucks. It has reviews saying they used it in their aquariums and it worked.
I think that would work, it's a very similar purity to the Levamed (90%) so the dosing should be similar. I don't know what the inactive agents are in it but you will use so little I don't think it's much of a danger if the inactives don't require an "active" listing.

Try to see if you can divide that up into smaller air tight bags and wrap the bags in foil to use later or just outright give away. 52 grams at my dosing is good for 5,200 gallons. I would have to dose every tank in my house ~20 times to use it all up, and I'm sure by then it would be getting too old to rely on.

Note, my dosage is about 1/4 of what Jen is doing if I'm mathing correctly, but it's a dosage very similar to what the loaches link recommends. I know the ld50 for most aquarium fish would tolerate the higher dose, but I could not find the numbers for my snails and use the lower dose with success so far.

Thanks for those links JenC the calculator is an awesome tool I had not seen before.
 
Shrimp42
  • Thread Starter
  • #17
I think that would work, it's a very similar purity to the Levamed (90%) so the dosing should be similar. I don't know what the inactive agents are in it but you will use so little I don't think it's much of a danger if the inactives don't require an "active" listing.

Try to see if you can divide that up into smaller air tight bags and wrap the bags in foil to use later or just outright give away. 52 grams at my dosing is good for 5,200 gallons. I would have to dose every tank in my house ~20 times to use it all up, and I'm sure by then it would be getting too old to rely on.
Do medicines like these go bad quickly? How quickly if they do.
 
John58ford
  • #18
Do medicines like these go bad quickly? How quickly if they do.
We get into tricky stuff there because we are using it for an off-label usage at extremely low dosages. The meds we are using may or may not have anti caking agents, stabilizers, uv protection, or anti oxidizers. They are really designed to treat livestock immediately upon opening so I can't say for sure how long it would be good for in open air.

When I ordered mine from the shop in Colorado he sent the tag from the original jar he divided it out of and I think he said I could store it for up to a year if it's will protected. I divided it into a bunch groups, put each group in it's own bag and wrapped then in foil to protect them from light. I work from one bag whenever I need to treat and then throw the extra away after that weeks treatments.

Since I'm likely at the bottom and safest end of effective dosage, it would really matter if my meds degraded as I would unknowingly under-dose. If you were dosing higher and not worried as much about your micro fauna and snails like I am you would have a wider margin for error and degradation.
 
Shrimp42
  • Thread Starter
  • #19
We get into tricky stuff there because we are using it for an off-label usage at extremely low dosages. The meds we are using may or may not have anti caking agents, stabilizers, uv protection, or anti oxidizers. They are really designed to treat livestock immediately upon opening so I can't say for sure how long it would be good for in open air.

When I ordered mine from the shop in Colorado he sent the tag from the original jar he divided it out of and I think he said I could store it for up to a year if it's will protected. I divided it into a bunch groups, put each group in it's own bag and wrapped then in foil to protect them from light. I work from one bag whenever I need to treat and then throw the extra away after that weeks treatments.

Since I'm likely at the bottom and safest end of effective dosage, it would really matter if my meds degraded as I would unknowingly under-dose. If you were dosing higher and not worried as much about your micro fauna and snails like I am you would have a wider margin for error and degradation.
That makes sense. If these 2 courses of prazipro don't work I will order some and refer to this thread. The platy producing the poop has stopped doing it and is not producing normal colored and sized poop, but we will see. Thanks both of you for the information on levamisole, and Zonotrichia for the extra information on praziquantel and metronidazole.

Okay I'm back with two questions.
1. Can I give the fish a 24 hour levamisole bath (so the paralyzed worms drop into the bottom of the container/bucket and I won't have to vacuum my planted tank) then add them back to the main tank and repeat the bath after however much time?
2. This one may be stupid, but when the medicine paralyzes the parasite, will it be permanent paralysis or temporary?

Update: I'm mainly making this so you can check what I have done. The levamisole came in today and I decided I will be dosing at 13ppm per 10 gallons as its easier for me to measure (I'm using a 1/8 teaspoon to measure) how much. I fed the fish, mixed the medicine with tank water and dosed it. I turned off the lights of the tanks and my room. In 24 hours I will vaccum redose and repeat this same procedure in a week. Does this sound good? I also put the remaining medicine in a plastic bag (took out as much air as possible) and wrapped the bag with aluminum foil.

Update 2: The medicine was effective, but it killed both my nerite snails. Amano shrimp and cherry shrimp are good. The fish seem sluggish, and 2 guppies im really worried about as they are bottom sitting. It seems they have trouble swimming. Maybe the removal of the worms messed with their swim bladders? I tested the water and have 0 ammonia 0 nitrites and 30 nitrates. I did a 50% water change and put in carbon. I vacuumed up as many worms I could see and I will retreat with a lower dose next time. Hopefully these 2 guppies pull through as they were both healthy before I started treatment.

Also wanted to add that the 10 gallon fry tank I dosed had no problem, all the fry are eating as usual and not a single ramshorn snails died. Strange the fry took it better than the adults.
 
John58ford
  • #20
Thanks for the updates, I am usually on the lower dosage side of things as I keep/breed mystery snails as well as my guppies. Glad your fry did well. I've usually noticed some sluggish and bottom sitting fish after treatment as well. A couple more may die if the parasites were mature as they have likely already done allot of damage in there. Hope it goes smooth for you from here out though, thanks again for updating.

Edited for awful spelling.
 
Shrimp42
  • Thread Starter
  • #21
Thanks for the updates, I am usually on the lower disagree side of things as I keep/breed mystery snails as well as my guppies. Glad your fry did well. I've usually noticed some sluggish and bottom sitting dish after treatment as well. A couple more may die if the parasites were mature as they have likely already done allot of damage in there. Hope it goes smooth for you from here out though, thanks again for updating.
Yeah I will definitely dose with a lower dose next time. I'll make an update in a week or so on the next treatment.
 
Shrimp42
  • Thread Starter
  • #22
Update (probably the last): sadly one of the 2 female guppies didn't make it through the first dose, she had very bad swim bladder issues so I euthanized. The other guppy recovered after a day and started eating again which is good. One of my males developed mild fin rot so I've given him 3 salt baths and its healing. I did the second dose today with lights off and will re dose in another week. Once again thank you everyone who contributed in this thread and helped, my fish wouldn't have made it without you.

I know I said last update but this is more of a question. How do I know what are worms and what is poop? Some of the stuff I see after treatment looks like normal fish poop just with thread like strings holding it while others look like worms. I dont know what I'm looking for, does anyone have a reference for me?
 
John58ford
  • #23
I use a pair of microscopes, it's easy to find magnified reference images of the parasites and their eggs to compare against. At about 100x magnification you can easily tell if it is a worm, egg string, or normal poo. At 300-1000x magnification you can tell the type. My most common issue has been "capillaria" easily identified by the shape of the eggs in the stringy poo that usually carries them out. Try a Google search and you should be able to find it. The merck vet manual online is a free, easy resource you can use to get an idea of the scientific name you are looking for, then extend your studies from there. I use a couple other resources but they aren't very user friendly, I'm sure you will run across them eventually.

You should be able to find a cheap microscope for less than $100 pretty easily, a big help is if it has a light that projects down from the lense, as well as the typical light under the slide plate. With the light from the top you could also examine tissues without having to be able to take perfect "slices", for poo inspection though, typically I use the under plate light. Grab a pack of slides when you order, one slide will last you a long time as you don't really need to use the cover slides unless you are collecting an archive. I just wash the same slide clean after use, toss it if I scratch or chip it.
 
Shrimp42
  • Thread Starter
  • #24
The last update (for real this time): I did the third dose yesterday with lights off on both my 10 gallon quarantine that holds 8 guppy fry and my 29 gallon Livebearer community tank. As usual a good chunk of ramshorn snails died even after reducing the dose to 6ppm, but I'm not concerned as they breed fast. I think the worms stunted my fry a lot because they are now 2 months old and are aren't even an inch yet. I will do a final dose next week as when I did this previous one, it seemed that what I'm assuming are worms were abundant in the substrate. I obviously vacuumed them out and will vaccum tomorrow as well. Man internal parasites have to be the worst thing in this hobby. Anyways, thanks everyone again.
 
Shrimp42
  • Thread Starter
  • #25
Well I turned the lights on today and my SAE was dead. I did the final dose yesterday and I always noticed the SAE was less active after every dose but he would perk back up after a couple days. Maybe I'm preparing the meds wrong? I have a 25 mg scoop and I did the math with the levamisole calculator and its 5 scoops for 29 gallons at 6ppm. I scoop the medicine in a plastic cup and mix it with water then let it sit for a minute or two then dose it. Is this correct or is this why the fish died? I know scaleless fish are more sensitive to medicine so maybe that's why?
 
AvalancheDave
  • #26
2 mg/L is the dose I see in veterinary references. I also take into account the purity of the drug in my calculations. Failing to do so results in the opposite problem, under-dosing, though.

Converting weight to volume is a potential source of inaccuracy.
 
Shrimp42
  • Thread Starter
  • #27
2 mg/L is the dose I see in veterinary references. I also take into account the purity of the drug in my calculations. Failing to do so results in the opposite problem, under-dosing, though.

Converting weight to volume is a potential source of inaccuracy.
I've been using the kanaplex scoop since its the smallest thing I have and it said that it was 25 mg, so that means I have been dosing 125 mg for 29 gallons which is over the veterinary reference. If I was going off of 6 ppm though wouldn't that convert to 5 scoops or my math is off? Its also not full 100% levamisole its 95% I think. My other fish have gone through it pretty well, but my snails didn't handle it well either. I will lower it to what you say with all my new fish I get.
 
John58ford
  • #28
I have to say I have always dosed by weight, .1 gram to 10 gallons ratio which should give me 2.8-3ppm, I have not killed any stock with that technique and it paralyzes very well, no it is not a lethal dose but I keep sensitive fish so a little work with the vacuum is worth it to me.

Math time: With a volume calculator it looks like each 25mg (by volume) is .05 tsp (by volume), according to the Levamed calculator I would be looking for .077 tsp in a 29 gallon so you would be looking for 1.5 of your scoop to match my 2.8-3ppm if the weight to volume calculating was correct. 3 scoops would get you to your 6 ppm target, and the 5 scoops would put you in the 8-9 ppm range. Again assuming the volume conversion was good to go. Personally I'm sticking to my weight method.

Sorry you are losing stock, this is really the best med I have found for my internal parasite issues, it bums me out you are having bad luck.

Edit in case it wasn't clear: a 25mg volume scoop does not equal a 25mg weight, they share a name but are different measures, I hate converting measures like this, and always try to go for the weight option, with granular powders even the shape of a spoon this small can change the amount you get dramatically.

Edited again: to be more clear, I used a liquid volume calculation for the above example as it is true volume, again as in this size scoop the difference in powders is significant. 2500mg/tsp to 5000mg/tsp by volume is the actual range depending on granular size from sugar size to true volume.
 
Shrimp42
  • Thread Starter
  • #29
I have to say I have always dosed by weight, .1 gram to 10 gallons ratio which should give me 2.8-3ppm, I have not killed any stock with that technique and it paralyzes very well, no it is not a lethal dose but I keep sensitive fish so a little work with the vacuum is worth it to me.

Math time: With a volume calculator it looks like each 25mg is .05 tsp, according to the Levamed calculator I would be looking for .077 tsp in a 29 gallon so you would be looking for 1.5 of your scoop to match my 2.8-3ppm if the weight to volume calculating was correct. 3 scoops would get you to your 6 ppm target, and the 5 scoops would put you in the 8-9 ppm range. Again assuming the volume conversion was good to go. Personally I'm sticking to my weight method.

Sorry you are losing stock, this is really the best med I have found for my internal parasite issues, it bums me out you are having bad luck.

Edit in case it wasn't clear: a 25mg volume scoop does not equal a 25mg weight, they share a name but are different measures, I hate converting measures like this, and sideways try to go for the weight option, with granular powders even the shape of a spoon this small can change the amount you get dramatically.
Okay, so if I go with your 2.8-3 ppm dosage, I use 1.5 scoops of my kanaplex/25mg scoop? And for 10 gallons that would be roughly a half of the kanaplex scoop? I trust the med works, I think everything bad that has happened was completely my fault for overdosing so no need to apologize.
 
John58ford
  • #30
Okay, so if I go with your 2.8-3 ppm dosage, I use 1.5 scoops of my kanaplex/25mg scoop? And for 10 gallons that would be roughly a half of the kanaplex scoop? I trust the med works, I think everything bad that has happened was completely my fault for overdosing so no need to apologize.
I would believe that to be true if your powder is as fine as mine and your scoop is a basic shape. It's possible you could end up under-dose though if the scoop has corners or your granule size is larger.

I trimmed the table I used for mg/tsp liquid volume conversion:

Screenshot_20201020-113013~2.png
The levamisol calculator claims that my 0.29 grams would be roughly .075 tsp. I again do not know what grain size they accounted for in their weight to volume calculation though so I have never tried to do it that way.

The thing we know, printed on the lable is the percentage of active ingredient by weight, weight is the only measure I have been comfortable using since we are using such tiny quantities. To get around the issues, select aquatics (the link I put up) has started making their own spoons that work with the brand they sell since other scoops vary in shape too much, and other brands have different granule size. I'm not saying to buy from them, but just that they understood allot of people don't have scales as accurate enough to weigh it out. I own a scale so I do not have their scoop to compare to anything.
 
Shrimp42
  • Thread Starter
  • #31
Just wanted to make an update to document what has happened for others who may see this: The worms were successful eradicated, but fish do not eat much if at all after 4 or so days. Thry have made improvements in eating, but some still won't touch the food at all. I lost another female guppy after she developed some red rash then died this morning. I knew that secondary infections are common after deworming, but I didn't know it would be this bad. 2 guppies especially won't eat so I brought the sponge filter into my 10 gallon quarantine with 1 tablespoon of salt per 3 gallons and I dosed the main 29 gallon with 2 tablespoons of salt (I would do more but I dont want to kill my plants). The betta is the only fish acting completely normal and eating normally which leads me to believe she never had worms to begin with.
 
John58ford
  • #32
It's possible with the betta that it had worms but due to being significantly larger the impact wasn't as bad. In necropsy I have observed that relatively small capillaria worms when adult are just as large as an endlers digestive tract causing what I as an amateur would believe to be a complete blockage. I would guess (though I have never attempted to necropsy a betta) that my bettas have a much larger tract and would not be as affected. I believe this to be the reason I don't typically lose any tetra when the endlers are having issues as well. With larger fancy guppy I'm not sure how it would compare.
 
Shrimp42
  • Thread Starter
  • #33
It's possible audi with the betta that it had works but due to being significantly larger the impact wasn't as bad. In necropsy I have observed that relatively small capillaria worms when adult are just as large as an endlers digestive tract causing what I as an amateur would believe to be a complete blockage. I would guess (though I have never attempted to necropsy a betta) that my bettas have a much larger tract and would not be as affected. I believe this to be the reason I don't typically lose any tetra when the endlers are having issues as well. With larger fancy guppy I'm not sure how it would compare.
That makes sense, this may be why livebearers are so prone to internal worms in the first place.
 
Shrimp42
  • Thread Starter
  • #34
I think for sure this is the final update/message: All fish have recovered besides the SAE and the female guppy from the beginning, and all fish are eating now. One of the female guppies was so skinny i though she would die of starvation, but she started eating again and has fattened up. The only weird thing that I think is completely unrelated is every time I do a water changes, this same female platy freaks out, gets clamped fins, and sits at the bottom for a couple hours. After that she goes back to normal no clamped fins and swims regularly. Its been three water changed and she does it everytime, and its only her. I ordered a 11 dollar scale to measure the levamisole easier when I dose.
 
KribensisLover1
  • #35
General Cure directions say dump packets right into tank! It made my tank look like it was snowing. Happened today. Sketchy.
 
AvalancheDave
  • #36
General Cure directions say dump packets right into tank! It made my tank look like it was snowing. Happened today. Sketchy.

Yeah, metronidazole isn't that soluble and praziquantel is almost completely insoluble in water. GC may also not be that pure so there may be other stuff in there.
 
paulcy82
  • #37
I have tried all the meds listed here (so far) on a couple different parasites/nematodes. The only one I have had consistent good luck with is the levamisol. The med is light sensitive so I usually go dark while I treat. I dose it at .1 gram per 10 gallons, wait 24 hours after first dose, vacuum and redose, wait 24 hours, vacuum, wait 24, vacuum heavily and put in carbon for a week.

Most of these meds don't actually kill the parasites but paralyze them, the eggs they may have left in the fish, or substrate are still viable. If you have a hard to vacuum tank, it might take you a couple rounds to get the eggs. I usually wait about 2 weeks after the first treatment, then go again whether symptoms are visible or not.

If you haven't tried levamisol yet, I would give it a try; it's pennies on the dollar cheaper per treatment and recommended by several live bearer specialist I have followed. So far, I haven't managed to hurt my cycle, snails, or plants with it, and have used it in many tanks.
You said something that I am really interested in knowing more about. The last part where you said you haven't hurt your cycle. Last week, I dosed paracleanse on a 2 year old tank and after about 2 hours, the tank was cloudy and all the fish were at the top. About 50% died before I could move them. I took a water sample and had 0ppm of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. I had an extra air stone and run a fluval 306 on this 55G. What happened?
 
John58ford
  • #38
What happened?


Metro and prazi are different than levamisol, but that mix looks allot like general cure, which I have also used, but do not often recommend due to the molecular mass vs the more common decorative fishes intake via osmosis. Basically once dissolved, it is hard to absorb into the fish through the water column, but would work well if used as food, at higher concentrations than you can dose a tank with, a quick shallow bath could be used as well.

That aside, if used as directed, plus the extra aeration I don't know what would have gone wrong. The fact your water was cloudy hints at a high rate of oxidizing agent. This may happen if you are dosing prime or other sulfur based dechlor products simultaneously with the med.

It's also possible that you over dosed the tank. 3 inches of sand would reduce the volume of the tank by 8 gallons, if you are an inch below the rim there's another 2.5 gallons, add a few rocks etc and you have a 40-45 gallon tank. A mistake I could see myself making would be dose it like a 60, 55 plus a canister, but I would be wrong there. 1/3-1/4 over dose might be bad, but I don't really know, just guesses.

If you are using oxidizing agents in a tank, it often throws the indicators in our test kits or of whack. I see you said it was triple 0, but clearly one of those things cannot be true. Even if you did manage to kill a cycle, I wouldn't see the nitrate just disappear, it would have to go somewhere. And if the tank stops producing nitrate, there would be a build up if ammonia or nitrite. Really just taking shots at thinking outside the common here, hopefully one of these ideas helps you figure out what happened.


Edit: the instructions also state 6.4-7.6 pH for freshwater, you aren't typically on the extremes of those are you?
 
paulcy82
  • #39
Thank
Metro and prazi are different than levamisol, but that mix looks allot like general cure, which I have also used, but do not often recommend due to the molecular mass vs the more common decorative fishes intake via osmosis. Basically once dissolved, it is hard to absorb into the fish through the water column, but would work well if used as food, at higher concentrations than you can dose a tank with, a quick shallow bath could be used as well.

That aside, if used as directed, plus the extra aeration I don't know what would have gone wrong. The fact your water was cloudy hints at a high rate of oxidizing agent. This may happen if you are dosing prime or other sulfur based dechlor products simultaneously with the med.

It's also possible that you over dosed the tank. 3 inches of sand would reduce the volume of the tank by 8 gallons, if you are an inch below the rim there's another 2.5 gallons, add a few rocks etc and you have a 40-45 gallon tank. A mistake I could see myself making would be dose it like a 60, 55 plus a canister, but I would be wrong there. 1/3-1/4 over dose might be bad, but I don't really know, just guesses.

If you are using oxidizing agents in a tank, it often throws the indicators in our test kits or of whack. I see you said it was triple 0, but clearly one of those things cannot be true. Even if you did manage to kill a cycle, I wouldn't see the nitrate just disappear, it would have to go somewhere. And if the tank stops producing nitrate, there would be a build up if ammonia or nitrite. Really just taking shots at thinking outside the common here, hopefully one of these ideas helps you figure out what happened.


Edit: the instructions also state 6.4-7.6 pH for freshwater, you aren't typically on the extremes of those are you?
Thank you for the response and the ideas. Overdose could certainly be a possibility as for sure there is not exactly 55G in that tank - I didn't even think of that. I do use prime, but didn't do a water change for 1 full week to prep for this dose of meds. My pH is around 7.6. I do not add anything to lower it as I drip acclimate and get the fish used to that level of pH so I am not adding another chem to the water column.

The water getting cloudy is what confused me. Since last week I have tried this on another tank yesterday and the exact same thing happened. I lost no fish as I was prepared. I don't feel the meds are bad, just me doing or not doing something correctly. Driving me crazy.
 

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