Interbreeding Apistos

Jefferys420

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Hi guys I've got a bit of a problem I'm busy breeding apistogramma double reds and I can't get more males or females apart from the 1s I've bred now I'm not exactly keen to inter breed them but I have read on Google that if you inter breed enough they'll become more of sisters brothers then siblings they say it takes about 5 generations to get it to that point is that true or another myth?
 

Crazycoryfishlady

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Interbreeding any fish can cause deformatikns. But it won't happen the first generation.
What you're doing is lessening your gene pool, so not only will your genes become more uniform, and you'll be popping out near double (the same parent and child genetically) and then trying to rebreed them, dulling your colors, causing sometimes mental and physical disabilites and higher loss rates in fry.
Again. Not going to happen right away.

Have you looked into ordering fish?
Wetspot in Oregon US has super red, fire red, double red and many more apistos.
The ones you're talking about have the flamey tail right?
I believe their breeding pair for those either 29.99 or 39.99 with some breeding pairs going up to 49.99.
But they'll likely round up a bit. So 50 even or 30 even.
It would also be beneficial to do it like this, because then you can seperate your current females, and males, and place the new respective sexes with them.
So say you have 2 females now.
Put the new male you get with those two females, and your old males with the new female.
This will create geneticially different offspring, which you can then breed with your other babies, making your genes diverse and unlikely to cause problems for many more generations.
Estimating inbreeding showing at 8 breedings rather than 5.
They have fees, around 15 dollars for shipping, and 5 dollars I believe for insurance.
This means you're covered for a replacement if you have any dead arrivals.
They're a good company, and I think it might be worth it to look into shipping them.

And if you're opposed to shipping fish, just remember, any apistos or fish you've already purchased, has already been shipped at least once when they came into the store you bought them from.

I'm not really sure what they mean by becoming more sisters and brothers than siblings, but genetics are sort of explained using
Punnet squares.

So 1 is male 1
2 is female 2

>>1] [2
1]11[12
2]12[22

So here you have the parents, and these pairs they made, their babies.
Baby 11, is female and breeds with baby 12 who is male.
This makes this punnet square.
>>11] [12
11]11]12
12]12]12

Now you've ended up with three out of four babies who are extremely similar.
If you try to breed these babies, you will be making out with pretty much only "12" babies.
This means you're constantly breeding the same genes, and when this happens, things like prolapse, and genetic deformities occur.
So you could end up with a baby that is like 122, and it would likely not live very long and be damaged in some way.

Genetics are much more complicated than a 2x2 square, but as a small sample size, it's something sort of easy to understand.
It's also usefull when dealing with traits.
Some fish breed certain recessive traits.
So if you have an rr fish with long fins, and breed it with a short fin dd dominant fish, you might get more rr if the dd fish has any of the rr genes in it.
Some dd fish are actually dr, dominant recessive, which means their babies sometimes give pure rr meaning you'll only get rr from them.

I'm sorry if I got confusing...
Hopefully this makes sense and helps! Good luck with your breedings, and please look into ordering some fish near you if you can. I think it will help a lot
 

chromedome52

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Punnet squares are not normally used in that way, they are for calculating the combinations of specific genes. That example does not calculate gene distribution correctly. You will not end up with a bunch of clones, as your example suggests.

Fish are not the same as mammals, reptiles, or even amphibians. There are few instances where inbreeding (as opposed to interbreeding, which always increases genetic diversity) is actually a problem with fish. Many of the fancy strains of livebearers are the result of selectively breeding parents to offspring, or siblings to one another. (Sibling is just another word for brothers and sisters, so that comment is nonsense on the part of your source.) Given the number of offspring in the average spawning life of most dwarf cichlids, there is actually more genetic diversity than you realize.

However, to be specific to OPs problem, the double red Cockatoo strain you are breeding is already heavily inbred, and you cannot make it worse by doing more inbreeding. If that were possible, the strain would have died out 10 years ago.
 
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Jefferys420

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Interbreeding any fish can cause deformatikns. But it won't happen the first generation.
What you're doing is lessening your gene pool, so not only will your genes become more uniform, and you'll be popping out near double (the same parent and child genetically) and then trying to rebreed them, dulling your colors, causing sometimes mental and physical disabilites and higher loss rates in fry.
Again. Not going to happen right away.

Have you looked into ordering fish?
Wetspot in Oregon US has super red, fire red, double red and many more apistos.
The ones you're talking about have the flamey tail right?
I believe their breeding pair for those either 29.99 or 39.99 with some breeding pairs going up to 49.99.
But they'll likely round up a bit. So 50 even or 30 even.
It would also be beneficial to do it like this, because then you can seperate your current females, and males, and place the new respective sexes with them.
So say you have 2 females now.
Put the new male you get with those two females, and your old males with the new female.
This will create geneticially different offspring, which you can then breed with your other babies, making your genes diverse and unlikely to cause problems for many more generations.
Estimating inbreeding showing at 8 breedings rather than 5.
They have fees, around 15 dollars for shipping, and 5 dollars I believe for insurance.
This means you're covered for a replacement if you have any dead arrivals.
They're a good company, and I think it might be worth it to look into shipping them.

And if you're opposed to shipping fish, just remember, any apistos or fish you've already purchased, has already been shipped at least once when they came into the store you bought them from.

I'm not really sure what they mean by becoming more sisters and brothers than siblings, but genetics are sort of explained using
Punnet squares.

So 1 is male 1
2 is female 2

>>1] [2
1]11[12
2]12[22

So here you have the parents, and these pairs they made, their babies.
Baby 11, is female and breeds with baby 12 who is male.
This makes this punnet square.
>>11] [12
11]11]12
12]12]12

Now you've ended up with three out of four babies who are extremely similar.
If you try to breed these babies, you will be making out with pretty much only "12" babies.
This means you're constantly breeding the same genes, and when this happens, things like prolapse, and genetic deformities occur.
So you could end up with a baby that is like 122, and it would likely not live very long and be damaged in some way.

Genetics are much more complicated than a 2x2 square, but as a small sample size, it's something sort of easy to understand.
It's also usefull when dealing with traits.
Some fish breed certain recessive traits.
So if you have an rr fish with long fins, and breed it with a short fin dd dominant fish, you might get more rr if the dd fish has any of the rr genes in it.
Some dd fish are actually dr, dominant recessive, which means their babies sometimes give pure rr meaning you'll only get rr from them.

I'm sorry if I got confusing...
Hopefully this makes sense and helps! Good luck with your breedings, and please look into ordering some fish near you if you can. I think it will help a lot
Sorry what I meant is being more of a sister to the parents then it's children sorry for that was at work when I was typing so was a bit rushed....

I would do the shipping but the exchange rate for me is pretty bad with rands to dollars or Euros so that kinda stops me from ordering online but I'll have a look at Thank you
 
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Jefferys420

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Punnet squares are not normally used in that way, they are for calculating the combinations of specific genes. That example does not calculate gene distribution correctly. You will not end up with a bunch of clones, as your example suggests.

Fish are not the same as mammals, reptiles, or even amphibians. There are few instances where inbreeding (as opposed to interbreeding, which always increases genetic diversity) is actually a problem with fish. Many of the fancy strains of livebearers are the result of selectively breeding parents to offspring, or siblings to one another. (Sibling is just another word for brothers and sisters, so that comment is nonsense on the part of your source.) Given the number of offspring in the average spawning life of most dwarf cichlids, there is actually more genetic diversity than you realize.

However, to be specific to OPs problem, the double red Cockatoo strain you are breeding is already heavily inbred, and you cannot make it worse by doing more inbreeding. If that were possible, the strain would have died out 10 years ago.
Yea sorry there were a few spelling errors in my post... Oh ja I forgot to mention it's not the cockatoo strain I've got the aggassizzi so would that still apply to be being heavily inbred as well from the start before I bought them ?.... Sorry what I meant was more sister or brother to the parent fish it was bred from after a few generations
 

chromedome52

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Yes, the Aggie strain is also a highly line bred fish, so the same information applies. It was produced by crossing different populations of agassizi, then line bred to fix the strain.
 
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Jefferys420

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Yes, the Aggie strain is also a highly line bred fish, so the same information applies. It was produced by crossing different populations of agassizi, then line bred to fix the strain.
So then is inbreeding and line bred the same thing or is it slightly different like I have 2 generations of offspring from the parents so do I take 1 from the older generation of and 1 from the newer generation will that be line bred? I've been reading up about it today alil I'm still slightly confused though
 
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