Ill Oranda, Very Limited Resources Important

Discussion in 'Freshwater Fish Disease' started by OrandaFetish, Aug 15, 2019.

  1. OrandaFetish

    OrandaFetishNew MemberMember

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    Hello,
    I’m a new hobbyist from Cairo, Egypt and this is my first post. I’ve had this particular oranda for a little over a month now. Initially her and the other goldfish stayed with various angelfish, loaches and a pleco; which I soon figured was a bad idea when I noticed she’d been attacked viciously by my loaches and my pleco. I quickly removed and returned all my tropical fish to the store and now house 4 orandas in my 55-gallon tank. She’s endured fungal infection from the wounds inflicted by the loaches that eventually totally cleared up and became a slight swim bladder issue coupled with developing fin rot. The swim bladder issue developed into her resting upside down but otherwise swimming fine and freely albeit clumsily around the aquarium. I currently am doing daily water changes of about 40 percent and treating her with methylene blue by dipping twice daily. I’ve been feeding her a pea-only diet for a week now. I tried aquarium salt various times but didn’t really seem to do much. I want to know what I could possibly do to cure her of her fin rot. Keep in mind that I live in Egypt, where the majority veterinary “professionals” are uncertified hobbyists who have no experience dealing with fish. I also have limited access to meds/treatments. All I have access to are methylene blue and aquarium salt from the store. I want to know if I could purchase any antibiotics intended for human use and use those instead but I am not sure how I would administer and the correct dosages etc... Any advice?
     

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  2. fa4960

    fa4960Well Known MemberMember

    Fin rot is often linked to the water conditions so make sure your do WC often enough to keep Ammonia at 0 (or at least not above 0.5) and Nitrite at 0, so requires a cycled tank as well.

    If the above parameters are under control you could consider at stronger antibacterial alternative to Methylene blue like Potassium Permanganate, which I would think you can purchase locally. As PP is a strong oxidizer that can also kill your fish if dosed incorrectly it is very important that you read up on PP before using it. It can be used both as a water treatment before WC's and as a bath. Here are some links to provide you with more information:

    General information and WC tank treatment
    Using Potassium Permanganate

    Bath/Dip:


    So far I have only used PP as a WC treatment but I will do a bath/dip when I see issues on individual fish.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2019
  3. OP
    OP
    OrandaFetish

    OrandaFetishNew MemberMember

    Thank you for those links! The tank is cycled and my water changes are frequent, especially now with the tank being goldfish-only and with the sick oranda. I can’t access the first link though for some odd reason. I’ve searched for potassium permanganate and so far have only found a liquid concentration of it. That would work as well? I also wonder; if I treat the fin rot successfully would the accompanying swim bladder problem also resolve? I’ve read on several forums that swim bladder never resolves but is that also the case with swim bladder due to inflammation/infection? It only started showing with the fin rot so it’s definitely infection-related swim bladder.
     
  4. fa4960

    fa4960Well Known MemberMember

    Apparently I was linking a blocked site, so a moderator removed it. A shame as it actually is quite good.

    Anyway, you would typically always mix a PP solution even if you buy in dry form. However your challenge will be to calculate the right amount of solution to add? If it is sold for fish treatment maybe it says on the bottle how to dose it?

    I don't know if PP will cure swim bladder issues, only know that PP will attack every living organism starting from the lowest form of life and moving up the chain as long as it is active, hence the importance of not overdosing as the most delicate fish tissue will be the first thing on the fish to be damaged, i.e. gills. It's a great alternative to many medicines, especially in cases where said medicines are unavailable.
     
  5. OP
    OP
    OrandaFetish

    OrandaFetishNew MemberMember

    So, I was only able to find the PP in liquid form... Lol. About the swim bladder, I'm inferring that swim bladder which appears suddenly after obvious infection (fin rot) couldn't be anything but infection related. Right? So, if the infection is treated, the inflammation goes away and the swim bladder returns to normal function - as opposed to an example of a fish born with swim bladder defects. Am I thinking correctly?
     
  6. fa4960

    fa4960Well Known MemberMember

    If it is somehow bacteria related then PP should attack these bacterias as soon as it is done with any lower level life form (if any)..... Sorry, but that's as far as I can go in terms of "promising" a result with PP in this case. As already said PP can kill your fish if administered incorrectly but so can medicine if a fish is already too weak, and PP is in some cases a great alternative for those of us with limited access to treatments widely available in the US or Europe.

    I highly recommend that you have some 3% Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) on hand. This will within minutes neutralise the PP should you overdose and suddenly see your fish in major distress.

    PS: PP in high quantities can be used for manufacturing explosives and also cocaine apparently so it is restricted in some countries. I bought 1 kg without problems but not sure the same would be the case if I had ordered 25 kg.....
     
  7. Cognac82

    Cognac82Valued MemberMember

    Levamisole is also used to adulterate cocaine and that's why its use is restricted in some areas. It makes the drugs feel good with less active ingredient but has the unfortunate side effect of rotting the user's face off. Say no to drugs, people.
    As far as the swim bladder issues, it may resolve with treatment and it may not. Unfortunately, orandas are freaks of nature and the selective breeding has set them up for failure. You're doing the best thing you can do with limited meds, as clean water helps the most of anything.
    I have used meds on my fish, but mainly praziquantel as a general parasite treatment when I acquired new fish. When they were still having issues I acquired metronidazole and mixed that in food and combined with the praziquantel and that seemed to do the trick.
    I had a different fish with body ulcers a long time ago and I used betta revive (with instructions from a different site's users) as a dip successfully to treat that fish.
    I had another fish that had fin rot and body ulcers (much more advanced than the previous fish) and I used triple sulfa to treat it and it did not work out.
    You might notice a trend here. Goldfish are plagued with issues sometimes. I have been through many fish in a few years and I am now holding steady at 11, but it seems that at least where I live the stock is somewhat sickly and I got many sick fish.
    I quarantine everything and even with quarantine for six weeks and praziquantel treatment, the fish that looked fine when I introduced them all died over the next year or so.
    Goldfish are awesome when they're healthy but it is a really sad thing when you get one that's sick from the beginning.
    Hopefully someone can help you with meds and stuff. I just wanted you to know that sometimes you get a fish that doesn't make it and that it's not necessarily anything you did wrong. Keep that fish in fresh, clean water and it may surprise you and make a full recovery.
     
  8. OP
    OP
    OrandaFetish

    OrandaFetishNew MemberMember

    It's true. I'm surprised at how difficult it is to maintain fancy goldfish, especially a sick one - arguably more difficult than maintaining a discus! This oranda came completely healthy though. It was my mistake putting her in a tank with tropical fish. Never again am I going to attempt being inventive with creatures' lives at risk. The metronidazole is very accessible for me. Did you use it to treat fin rot or some other gram negative bacteria? If so, how? Did you buy fish pellets laced with metronidazole or did you crush tablets/manually feed?
     
  9. fa4960

    fa4960Well Known MemberMember

    Well, I have unfortunately lost a lot of discus the last 18 months so I am prepared to argue that statement above at any time ;)

    However, no doubt that our messing about with nature's species are causing some problems. Fancy guppies often also have a very short life span and some now claims that it is easier to keep wild discus than some of the inbred colour variations most of us have. I for one bought some poor quality fish in the large batch I got and I (and the fish) have paid the price in survival rate.

    Best of luck with the treatment.
     
  10. Cognac82

    Cognac82Valued MemberMember

    I crushed metronidazole and mixed it in with pellets. I followed a video I found on YouTube. It made the most sense to me treatment wise, but I didn't know what I was treating. My fish just weren't right. They were twitching and flashing and bottom sitting and had clamped fins. Praziquantel helped but not enough. So I repeated the praziquantel and did the metronidazole treatment at the same time. It seemed to work. They're all better than they ever had been and they spawned and I kept two of their fry.
     
  11. OP
    OP
    OrandaFetish

    OrandaFetishNew MemberMember

    I’d like to ask what dosage of metronidazole yoi gave your fish because that seems like the best option right now.
     
  12. Cognac82

    Cognac82Valued MemberMember

    I crushed 250mg of metronidazole into 25g of food and fed that to my fish for ten days and treated the water with praziquantel every week for four weeks. I used API goldfish pellets because the hikari ones dissolved too fast in the mixture. I also mixed in some garlic and garlic juice and let the pellets absorb everything and then dry out prior to feeding.
     
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