Ich Nightmare In 60 Litre Tank

Discussion in 'Freshwater Fish Disease' started by SophiaVernon, Jun 9, 2019.

  1. SophiaVernon

    SophiaVernonNew MemberMember

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    Help! Been treating two common goldfish in a 60 litre tank for Ich (shared with two Mollies). They are preparing to move to a smashing pond but need to cure the Ich first. Have tried malachite treatment. No joy. Have just finished 3 days of raising temp to 26 degrees and continually upping salt content over a 3 day period (0.3%). Just did 90% water change and serious cyphon to remove all juvenile debris from gravel. If anything, they now look like they have more Ich! Any ideas on how to rid them of the Ich for good? I don’t want their new Koi family to get infected at their new pond.
     
  2. BillCNC

    BillCNCValued MemberMember

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    OK, raising the tank to 26°C (78°F) is doing nothing. For heat to work it need's to be a minimum of 30°C (86°F) for 5-7 day's. Sound's like a persistent case of Ich, if so, your probably going to have secondary issues as a result. Raise and lower the temperature over a 2 day process. So for day one raise it to 28°C (83°F) and on day 2 raise it to 30°C (86°F). Do the same for bringing the temperature back down.

    If this was myself, I would realize the cost of treatment far out-weigh's the cost of the fish, ... something to think about.

    If you must have those fish, ... raise your tank temperature to 30°C for 5-7 day''s with DAILY gravel vac cleaning. If they are badly covered already hit them with Ich-X AND API's Erythromycin AND API's General Cure all at the same time. That should cover the Ich and any secondary issues that may arise.

    Regards
    Bill
     
  3. DixieFish

    DixieFishValued MemberMember

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    I just got rid of a HUGE Ich problem with my guppy fry. Not a single one ha less than three spots on them. I tried heat and salt alone, but it did not work. I finally treated the whole tank with API malachite green solution, and did so for a whole week, changing out 50% of the water and vacuuming before each new treatment. Same tank size, temp around 78F.

    Raising the temp above 80F stressed ALL my fish (it didn't help that my heater is incredibly unreliable at higher temps), and stressed fish get sick first and take longer to heal.

    My big question is: Are the mollies affected, too? Or is it just the Goldie's?
     
  4. Crazycoryfishlady

    CrazycoryfishladyWell Known MemberMember

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    I would never ever never never never ever add 3 doses of the same (type) medicine to the same tank.
    That is asking for problems.
    You don't ever dose more than what is recommended, listed on the bottle, or website unless directed otherwise by someone providing factual resources to back up WHY you would want to overdose your fish.

    Ich is a parasite and it takes anywhere from 5 days to about a month for it to go through its life cycle depending on temperature.

    What you NEVER want to do when treating any disease, is combine multiple treatments.
    Again.
    This causes a whole lot of undeeded issues.

    I wouldn't say the cost of the fish outweighs the cost of treatment regardless if the fish was free or 100 dollars a piece.
    It is still a living breathing creature we are refering to. Not a number in our bank account.

    Ich must be treated using the SAME treatment for up to 10 days more if needed.


    At your lower temperatures the ich is moving very slowly, which is why it seems like there is a lot more now.

    What you didnt see the few days before you water change, was you speeding up the ich cycle by raising the temperature.
    This caused any immature ich on the substrate to hacth and infect your fish as quickly as possible.
    So what you maybe should have done was a huge vacuum, AND THEN raise the temperature.

    Do 3 degree f per day, stop salt treatment in the main tank, and start using high quality ich meds.

    Malachite green is not enough.
    What you want is called formalin or acriflavine. Those are ich murding drugs.

    86 is the only temp that is fatal to all stages of ich.

    Medication is only fatal to the swimming stage before they attach to your fish (the ones you didnt see or kill when upping the temp.and adding salt)

    Salt baths only help a little, and shouldnt be a go to when treating any disease or parasite unless it's epsom salts used for dropsy or constipation.


    For about 8 more days or longer, I would be removing all salt, purchasing a medication with formalin such as rid ich plus by kordon
    Or something with acriflavine such as jungle cure.

    Be sure to wait at least 6 days continuing treatment after ich is no longer visible.

    Here is a chart of the life cycle at 75 degrees, and it slows with a lower temperature.

    It doesnot matter if only one or two fish have ich spots. Absolutely ALL of the fish need to be treated as do the tanks they were in.

    Ich dies within about 48 hours to 4 days without a host or fish to infect, so moving them out for a few days and then back in, or moving them to a new tank won't totally rid of the parasite. It can even be transfered through a single droplet of water or a used net.
     

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    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
  5. BillCNC

    BillCNCValued MemberMember

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    Not sure why 80°F stressed all your guppies they should be able to take that temperature with ease. Sound's like there is some missing info, poor genetic's, your heater's or thermometer's, or all of the above were way off.

    Healthy tropical guppies can handle 90°F for quite awhile. I was breeding them in water up to 92° and down to low 60's in the evening in outdoor tub's last summer here in the Southern California desert. 30° Temperature swing's with daily PH swing's from 7.6 in the morning to 8.5 in the evening.

    This past winter I had 4 male and 4 female guppy fry in an unheated tank that went into the low 50's for 4 month straight, I was left with one pair, a male and a female. They will be going into a tub to breed in 90° tub this summer. My goal is to make Tropical Guppies that can be raised in unheated tanks and still be vibrant in color and energy.

    When it comes to guppies, genetics is the key as most guppies have been inbreed so much that they fall apart from a simple water change

    Hi Crazycoryfishlady,

    Using those 3 all at the same time IS WELL DOCUMENTED TO BE SAFE and a simple Google search will prove to be so.



    Regards
    Bill
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 10, 2019
  6. OP
    OP
    SophiaVernon

    SophiaVernonNew MemberMember

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    Thank you for your lengthy and considered reply. There is so much conflicting advice out there, but it sure sounds as though you know your 'Ich'! The 2 mollies haven't ever shown symptoms. The Ich has been on my 2 goldfish for maybe 2-3 months now. They seem very happy, healthy, full of energy etc. But just too big for this 2nd upgraded tank now. I will look at the Ich treatment you mention and try that. I want to get them to their new pond home asap, just in case their tank is what is causing them to keep the Ich.
    Just the Goldies....

     
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  7. Crazycoryfishlady

    CrazycoryfishladyWell Known MemberMember

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    What you are asking the original poster to do is treat a single PARASITE not any other infection or problem, with 6 different medications all at once.

    You do not ever take 6 different antibiotics on yourself for for a SINGLE infection.
    You would get a single medication made specifically for that infection.
    You wouldnt get an antibiotic and couple it with 2 other antibiotics and other thing.
    If you have an infection why would you take parasite medication?
    No absolutel reason.

    If you have parasites, yes you need to treat the parasites, yes it's POSSIBLE that you will get a secondary infection, yes it's sometimes a good idea to treat with multiple meds.

    Cory is a smart man, but he is not a medical advisor.
    I know he is very intelligent and that he has good intentions and has done many of his own personal stuides.
    But no one will buy cancer treating medication unless it's backed up by a doctor they trust.

    Just because someone says they were cured by a med doesnt always mean they were.

    The same thing as a fish vet earlier telling a keeper their fish simply died from stress.

    Unlikely.
    They didnt do any testing so of course they can't say what caused death. Not even we can, but we can guess a bit better than someone who said it was just stress.

    We want to trust people online because we assume they have no reason to lie to us.
    And while it may not be their intention to lie to us, sometimes it's just ignorance.

    Cory mentions nothing of raising temperature.

    He also claims (if you have never treated your fish before, do so)
    Which I don't agree with.

    If you have a tank that has been running for a year with no deaths, there is absolutely no reason to treat your tank with a myriad of medication.

    General cure is 2 meds, ich medications contain 2 or more meds, heat treatment counts as 1 med, salt counts as 1 med, the api med they've already used counts as 1 med, and EM counts as 1 med.

    I don't care what cory says or anyone else on the forums, I can guarantee you no doctor worth their salt would EVER reccomnd that anyone treat any illness fish related or not, with 9 different methods over a single weeks period.

    They said they only did the salt for 3 days, which means theyve got 4 days left on a week.

    To start all those treatments now without first finishing or removing the treatments already in the tank is to be sure to cause more problems.

    What happens if they get columnaris rather than a fungal infection?
    Oh well that means again another new medication.

    Why don't we add kanaplex to this mix and up it to 10 individual treatments within less than 10 days.

    Sure doesn't sound like a mix of death to me!


    Maybe if they had NOT been treated in so many ways would I recommend coupling an antibacterial medication with an ich med, but for the most part, treatments should only be done as needed, not as one thinks to see fit.
    You don't treat someone who appears and tests healthy ever.

    Just because your fish has white poop or acts a certain way doesnt always mean it is sick.

    Every fish I own has white poops after eating certain foods.
    Some people seem to fail to realize that we try to make problems out of nothing.

    This would be a decent trio to use prior to any other treatment, but to constantly change treatments and try to keep them up for weeks on weeks is never a good idea.
    Flushing a body for days on end with chemicals almost always does more harm than good, and in fact, it can actually be the overusaage of medication that causes other diseases such as bacterial ones to show up.


    Heat, stress, the salt, the previous medication, all of that has already damaged the fishes health and it's slime coat.
    To continue with heat, possibly salt, and to add new chemicals will only make the slime coat worse thus creating further damage to the fish physically, making it far more likely to become susceptible to other issues.

    His trio he himself says is a quarantine initial treatment.
    This is not his go to on how he always treats ich, this is how he just prevents any diseases from showing up on initial purchase.

    I am almost positively sure that if you ask him himself, if he reccomends using this trio after already starting other treatments, he would be likely to say no, it is not in your best interest to start new treatments after already being in the process of multiple.
     
  8. Crazycoryfishlady

    CrazycoryfishladyWell Known MemberMember

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    @SophiaVernon
    You say the goldies have had ich for months now,
    Are you able to show us photos?
    It could be possible it might even not be ich, which could be why you may not see improvement.

    I have seen a few diseases that look similar to ich but are totally unaffected by their medications.

    I sort of own a company who creates disease pamphlets.
    I get all of my information from scientific studies and I cite them in my books.
    I also create my own visual images and do research on many different medications before trying to pick the best one.

    I have a semi (possibly somewhat opinionated) dislike for almost all API products as they often contain multiple types of medication (bacterial fungal and paracitical all in one medication listed as a natural rememdy for only one)
    And some of their products have even had fairly little research done on them, leading me to question why do we trust these as okay? If they are damaging to humans in certain doses, and there has been no research done on its affects on animals, then how can a company like API say it's all natural and safe?
    It simply hasn't been studied, and if it had, the information should be available to the public, not a secret.
    We have rights to know what chemicals we are using. (sort of....)

    I also had to treat ich on multiple occasions myself, and only used a salt bath once for my pleco, then ich medication for the rest of the time.

    Once API cure seemed useless I found something with formalin in it, (the best killer imo might be backed up scientifically haven't seen anything actually comparing ich meds yet...)
    It's one of the stronger meds, and can be dosed every 12 hours.
    I had to treat my 55 gallon for probably 18 days no end until I was totally in the clear.
    Now I inspect my fish thoroughly before purchase, and like cory, I treat them for parasites and ich.
    Just not all at the same time, sonce I believe in allowing your fish to rest before bombarding them with multiple treatments.
     
  9. OP
    OP
    SophiaVernon

    SophiaVernonNew MemberMember

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    Wow! That’s a lengthy reply. Thank you for taking the time.
    I’m still unsure what s best for my two goldies.
    After the https://www.petscorner.co.uk/aquacare-anti-fungus-white-spot-100ml treatment, I left the fish alone to see what would happen. As they seem happy, I thought I might let nature go are it’s course.
    Few weeks later, I started to add aquarium salt when I did my weekly water change (about 50%). I spoke to our local fish expert and read up on salt and heat treatment of ich. It sounded promising.
    After 3 days of adding 13 tsp of salt to my 60 litre tank every 12 hrs (temp at 26 degrees),I changed 90% of the water.
    No salt in new water, just tap water treatment. Decided not to add stress coat this time.
    What options do I have now, so that I don’t over dose or stress the fish, but treat the ich?


     
  10. BillCNC

    BillCNCValued MemberMember

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    Crazycoryfishlady,

    Here's one for you, ... Try to find information on the web about the trio being used together and having any detrimental affect. I and thousands upon thousands of other people have been using the trio without any issues at all, ... why is that?

    The only thing i can do is tell you to ask your Dr. to explain to you about Wide Spectrum drug's.

    BTW, ... Life and death is a real thing in this hobby and sometime's you need to play God. Sometimes what you call a Bank Account position isn't that at all and is more than not a humanitarian thing to do. Such as I would NEVER try to treat a fish with Dropsy, as they RARELY ever recover. Trying to save it is just making the fish suffer before it dies, ... and it will. I agree, white poop means nothing and the food they eat can cause this. When fish poop is CLEAR and/or segmented with clear poop that need's to be looked out for as that is an infestation.

    But if the OP say's he has a persistent Ich problem, ... he more than likely does have secondary issues lying underneath, he has to, as the fish has lesions were the Cyst's fell from. If it was a mild case, I would only use Ich-X, but I do use the trio on Every. Single. Fish. that comes in my place, ... RELIGIOUSLY!

    Breeders and I am one, ... have to cull our fish, what would you do with these?
    What about fish egg's in a tank you know will get eaten but you don't have the room to raise them?

    Lot's of life and death decision's in this hobby and if one cannot make them sensibly then perhaps one should pick another hobby or have more tanks than they can manage.

    Regards
    Bill

    Sophia, ...

    Make life easier and cheaper by dropping the water level at least by half if you can. Seeded sponge filters are great for this.

    The reason is you only have to treat 30 liters of water instead of 60 liters. This will also make it cost half as much to treat the tank.

    Regards
    Bill

    I'm a sucker for new information and I would love to read one, where can I get one from?

    Regards
    Bill
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 10, 2019
  11. OP
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    SophiaVernon

    SophiaVernonNew MemberMember

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    Thanks Bill, but won’t that make life a bit miserable for my fish whilst I treat them?

    53DC2A7D-E0D1-4516-9A34-8572D14B3B8A.34AFAE21-C2E3-441B-A1FE-35B8AD6F1527.36831B47-B706-4A1D-BC3B-28063F35ABD1.ED33ACA0-1417-4E66-9BB8-8E7652674B0C.ED33ACA0-1417-4E66-9BB8-8E7652674B0C.
     
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  12. BillCNC

    BillCNCValued MemberMember

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    If their not cramped already, no it should be fine and it will only be for a week or so. The fish you have are not aggressive so that's on your side. How many inches are your goldfish?

    I just looked and you have a 30L (15gal). It's a smaller tank so You could or could not. I do it to anything from 38L (10gal) and up depending on the issue. there have been time's where I have dropped my levels in half on all my tanks at once if something bad somehow sneaks in. It get's costly treating full tanks when you have many to treat. The only time I have issues with dropping the tank level in my stripped Panchex holding tank's. They are very aggressive to anything that can fit in their mouth or themselves otherwise they look at everything as if it was a piece of wood. When you have a group of them, it reminds you of a shoal of Piranha so dropping the level in that tank can get crazy.

    Is there spot's on the body? if not, I find it strange that it look's almost even regarding the same amount on left and right side from those picture's. BTW if that's all there is, you HAVE been holding it off very well.

    Regards
    Bill
     
  13. AnglerLuke

    AnglerLukeNew MemberMember

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    I am new to this but thought my recent experience may help. My green silver dollar had ich, I treated with api super ich cure for 2 weeks with no joy, all other fish in the tank had no signs of ich. On the night I made the decision is was not fair to continue treatment due to healthy fish in the tank and was willing let nature take its course I noticed something. In the low light setting( simulates dusk) my juvenile severum became very aggressive toward the silver dollar (they are roughly the same size). The green silver dollar who has no school to blend in with could not hide, and the severum was harassing the life out of him. I stopped using the low light function and in 1 day the spots were gone from the silver dollar and all seems happy. I have since bought a larger tank and am cycling it with the intention of adding more green silver dollars, as schooling is the natural defense mechanism of those types of fish. Perhaps if you look at possible other stressors as well as medication maybe it will help. Sorry for the long winded possibly nonsense reply, but experience and learning are what thos forum exists for. Good Luck to you and your buddies!!

    Luke
     
  14. Momgoose56

    Momgoose56Fishlore VIPMember

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    "Wide spectrum drugs"? Do you mean 'Broad spectrum antibiotics'? They are not combinations of multiple drugs but rather a single drug that works on two major bacteria groups (gram negative and gram positive bacteria) or that act on a wide range of bacteria that can cause disease.
    I have to agree with @Crazycoryfishlady on this. There is no reason to throw multiple drugs at a single condition. @SophiaVernon, you said your Goldies are acting normal, eating, and other than the Ich, have no symptoms that might indicate another problem right? You've tried salt and an antiparasitic with Formaldehyde in it at normal tank temps correct? You really haven't tried heat because for heat to really get the Ich moving through its stages of development faster, you need to maintain a constant 28-30°C for at least 7 to 10 days. Because formalin based antiparasitics are so effective against Ich, I would either: Raise the tank temperature to 29 degrees and repeat the full round treatment of Anti-fungus and white spot treatment OR raise the tank temperature to 29 degrees and treat the tank with a full round of an Acriflavin based antiparasitic as suggested by @Crazycoryfishlady.
    The heat will force the parasite through its lifecycle faster making all parasites in the tank (eggs, larvae and adults) susceptable to the killing effects of the drug during the treatment period.
    Think of treatment this way- when you take a dog to the vet for a rabies vaccine, you don't put him on an antibiotic because he might get an infection at the site of the injection right? Why treat your fish for an infection they might get at the site of a parasite attachment? Just my opinion of course, and the way I care for all of my animals (if it ain't broke, don't fix it!) Lol!
     
  15. Crazycoryfishlady

    CrazycoryfishladyWell Known MemberMember

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    I don't know.
    Based on photos I think I'm going to say this isn't ich.

    You may have a bit of bacterial/fungal build up on the fins it looks like, maybe the mouth as well, but ich definitely isn't uniform in it's appearance.
    It's kind of random and super spotty.

    Sometimes it looks more fluffy like bacteria, in which case it will look like this,
    I thought. i had some good photos but I do not... A shame.
    But I'm guessing that the reason ich meds aren't working is because it's not ich.

    I've got no idea what it is or could be or if it's even harmful, but I feel pretty certain it's not this type of parasite.

    Have you ever seen them scratch at it before? Like rubbing their bodies on decor?

    I don't know if it's harmful or of cause for concern


    As for pamphlets, I'm in the stages of finishing up a few different kinds and should have samples available for download, working on getting them into solid production and allowing sales across multiple localized stores in multiple cities.
    A few samples include but are not limited to
    Betta care; What to expect as a newcomer to fish keeping
    Goldfish; The misunderstood mythbuster
    Pre-fish care: properly cycling a tank, and how to correct a mistake
    Common Disease Care (multiple volumes)
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
  16. OP
    OP
    SophiaVernon

    SophiaVernonNew MemberMember

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    20190610_092508.20190610_092524.20190610_092510.
    20190610_092514.

    Ha! I hope this is the case then. No rubbing up against anything or seeming to be sick in any way. Eating, swimming. All seem ok. But my main concern is not rehoming them in someone else's pond if they have a disease. They were due to leave our tank in the next week or so, when I've slowly reduced the tank temp to nearer the pond temp of 12 degrees (tank is on 24 degrees. Still reducing after salt treatment at 26, which I now understand to be 4 degrees too low to help with Ich). Should I do nothing and rehome? The 4 spots on the Goldfish in the pic on his bottom lip almost look like fish fangs. Do Goldies gave these? They are evenly spaced. Both Goldfish are approx 4-5 inches nose to tail.
     
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  17. Momgoose56

    Momgoose56Fishlore VIPMember

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    Goldfish don't have fangs or even visible teeth. These raised white bumps look exactly like ich to me. They aren't evenly spaced. They are grouped, but randomly spaced for the most part. I don't know of a single fish (or human for that matter) disease, parasite, bacteria, virus, mycobacterium or anything else that produces symmetrically spaced pustules, lesions, papilla or nodules.
    I think, because the fish were treated for ich with salt/ Malachite Green (was there any formaldehyde in that?) at such a low temp that the visible adult ich were eradicated, but there were still immature ich, unaffected by the medication, that emerged later. You can rehome them to get rid of your problem, but wherever they go, they will take the problem with them.
     
  18. BillCNC

    BillCNCValued MemberMember

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    AGAIN, ...

    Hit them with the trio I mentioned previously, ... ALL your problems will be gone and your fish WILL be happy and healthy. And YES, it's as simple as that.

    Regards
    Bill
     
  19. Wraithen

    WraithenFishlore VIPMember

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    I wont guarantee you all your problems will be gone, but I can say the "med trio" or "quarantine trio" as it's been called is an extremely safe an effective way to dose for a wide range of issues. There hasn't been a fish yet that I know of that has reacted negatively to it.
     
  20. Momgoose56

    Momgoose56Fishlore VIPMember

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    Okay, @Wraithen & @BillCNC, I can see 'hitting' new, shipped or imported fish with this trio of drugs, but fish that have been in a tank and only have symptoms of ich? Would you treat a fish with flukes with an antibacterial and anti fungal too? A fish with fin rot with the trio too? All fish that have a single infection? I wouldn't. I think it's overkill and a waste of money and just doesn't make sense in a single, isolated, uncontaminated tank.
     
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