Ich emergency!

PeaP

Hi.
I have ich.
I tried treating it with Esha exit but it doesn't work, so I bought faunamor.
I raised the temperature to 29 degrees C.
I don't know how how to remove Esha medication from the water so that I can start dosing faunamor.
I bought charcoal from prodac, but I don't know if I should first make a 50% water change and then put charcoal in the filter.
How long should charcoal be in there to quickly start new dosing of medication.
Please help!
 

MacZ

I don't know how how to remove EsI don't know how how to remove Esha medication from the water so that I can start dosing faunamor.ha medication from the water so that I can start dosing faunamor.

80% waterchange and then active carbon in the filter for 24hours.

The bulk gets removed with a waterchange, what's left with the carbon. That's how removing any meds works.
 

CrackerboxPalace

Yep. You could also use purigen instead of carbon.
 

MacZ

Yep. You could also use purigen instead of carbon.

That's not very cost effective. Carbon is easier to source and the OP already has it at hand.
Just for comparison: Active carbon costs 5 bucks for 500ml, Purigen starts at 14.90 for 100ml. And both have the same efficiency for removing meds. It's a no-brainer to use carbon.
 

PeaP

80% waterchange and then active carbon in the filter for 24hours.

The bulk gets removed with a waterchange, what's left with the carbon. That's how removing any meds works.
Ok, I will do that...really thank you for your advice:)
 

Ksway

Esha definitely works have used it multiple times for ich. There is an underlying issue that's not being addressed, if you tell us about your set up ( how long set up, stocking, tank size, tested parameters and any other detail you could add.
29 degrees is also very high depending on fish, can cause them more stress if they are sick. Shouldnt have to raise temp to treat meds should work by themselves
 

MacZ

29°C is the recommendation of most ich meds, because the temperature accelerates the parasite's life-cycle as the meds usually only can kill them outside the body, hence shortening the overall time for the treatment with the meds. It makes sense and as far as I remember the OP has Apistos and tetras, so the temp should be no problem.

And especially with EsHa you want that stuff out as quick as possible, as it is pretty strong stuff, not only hard on the parasites but also on the fish.
 

Ksway

ESHA is a 3 day treatment so not long anyways. It doesn't recommend to raise temperature on esha instructions. In my experience ESHA isn't that strong and normally needs a second dose after the first. Used to treat all fish with it in the pet store I worked in. I breed apistos and they can handle 29 but it is quite high and will also speed up there metabolism. I don't see where he stated he has apistos I must be blind lol. I was just making sure he didn't have guppies or mollies that wouldn't handle that sort of heat well.
 

MacZ

I'm very careful with that manufacturer. It might have some pros for a retailer, but in home aquaria I have most often seen EsHa products have massive sideeffects and knock tanks off balance. Exit had impact on the cycle sometimes, while EsHa 2000 outright killed more fish than it saved in my experience.
 

Ksway

I'm very careful with that manufacturer. It might have some pros for a retailer, but in home aquaria I have most often seen EsHa products have massive sideeffects and knock tanks off balance. Exit had impact on the cycle sometimes, while EsHa 2000 outright killed more fish than it saved in my experience.
Normally it's not the medicine that kills of the fish (unless being used at doses not recommended) it is the disease that kills them off. I use it in my home aquaria with no issues what so ever with cycle or killing fish. Generally ich is easily treated and shouldn't cause an issue or death of the fish. There may be an underlying issue that's causing the ich or the fish to be stressed and making susceptible to disease.
Try Indian almond leaves there are no side effects
Indian almonds are great for overall water quality and add benefit to overall fish health, but they certainly won't cure disease or ich. Treat ich first and good practice would be to add leaves on a regular basis to promote the health of your fish
 

MacZ

Normally it's not the medicine that kills of the fish (unless being used at doses not recommended) it is the disease that kills them off. I use it in my home aquaria with no issues what so ever with cycle or killing fish. Generally ich is easily treated and shouldn't cause an issue or death of the fish. There may be an underlying issue that's causing the ich or the fish to be stressed and making susceptible to disease.

Have you looked at some med ingredients? Many are just desinfectants (like methylene blue) and just as many of the ingredients are simply harmful (like formaldehyde) and the question is whether the fish is still strong enough or whether the diesease has weakened them enough for the med to kill them.
While yes, meds are often times inevitable, fish may be too weak already, a med may put strain on their organism and may actually kill the fish.
Sometimes the med has group or genus-specific side effects. Antibiotics e.g. may harm fishes kidneys, several worm medications can kill labyrinth fish, some ich meds are hard on catfish and loaches (copper is typical or malachite green).

And otherwise the course of fish disease is usually: Stress comes first, then a parasite (like ich) or a pathogen (like some opportunistic bacteria) use the weakened immune system.

Anyhow, I find especially EsHa due to the high concentration of the active ingredients and the really bad info policy about side-effects at least sub-par.

That's why it's important to get a med that's not only effective, but also has the least side effects. Plus it ought to be indicated for the disease/parasite one is dealing with.
 

Ksway

Yes I am aware of the ingredients, but they are not extremely toxic in the doses recommended. Or else these companies wouldn't be in business selling product that kills everyones fish. Have you used liquid C02 ? It is an aldehyde they use for sterilization of medical equipment but in the low dose it kills off algae in the aquarium and doesn't effect the fish. I don't use these products myself but it's all to do with concentration levels. Methylene blue is used through out the hobby in correct doses to stop fungus growing on eggs that people want to hatch. The question is exactly if the fish are strong enough for medication, its not the medication that kills, it's the disease if they are too sick to be medicated they are not going to survive regardless of meds. People normally catch disease to late for medication to take effect. A great treatment for parasites is potassium permanganate but is clearly is deadly in incorrect doses. Of course medication have side effects all of them do, side effects of disease is death so that's what medications are trying to avoid.
 

GlennO

29°C is the recommendation of most ich meds, because the temperature accelerates the parasite's life-cycle as the meds usually only can kill them outside the body, hence shortening the overall time for the treatment with the meds. It makes sense and as far as I remember the OP has Apistos and tetras, so the temp should be no problem.

I recall reading an article on Ich which stated that the speed of the life cycle is at its maximum at around 27C. If correct, there is no benefit in going above that when treating with meds. Unfortunately I didn't bookmark it.
 

MacZ

Yes I am aware of the ingredients, but they are not extremely toxic in the doses recommended. Or else these companies wouldn't be in business selling product that kills everyones fish. Have you used liquid C02 ? It is an aldehyde they use for sterilization of medical equipment but in the low dose it kills off algae in the aquarium and doesn't effect the fish. I don't use these products myself but it's all to do with concentration levels. Methylene blue is used through out the hobby in correct doses to stop fungus growing on eggs that people want to hatch. The question is exactly if the fish are strong enough for medication, its not the medication that kills, it's the disease if they are too sick to be medicated they are not going to survive regardless of meds. People normally catch disease to late for medication to take effect. A great treatment for parasites is potassium permanganate but is clearly is deadly in incorrect doses. Of course medication have side effects all of them do, side effects of disease is death so that's what medications are trying to avoid.

I'm aware and have quite some experience. Dosage is definitely important. I'm not anti-medication in general but against unchecked use. (Except antibiotics which should be very restricted.) My point is mostly to be careful and not just to say meds are harmless when that's only correct under certain circumstances and provisions.

I'm arguing against esha specifically mainly because of the irregularities over the years.

Glutaraldehyde is not harmless, though. The effects are rather longterm and people tend to overdose it. I think liquid CO2 products are not yet proven to work except as an algaecide and I have neither need for the one or the other use.
 

Ksway

You keep mentioning esha and irregularities and problems with out evidence of them. Yes I agree clean water is the best preventative medicine and not relying on medication. I treat all my new fish with esha 2000 with great success for years with no issue. I'm not sure what irregularities you are talking about. I didn't say it's harmless, I said harmless in low doses and correctly used which it is. Dump a whole bottle in it won't be harmless. Well it's also not a C02 it's liquid so the naming of it is incorrect. Algaecide would be a better name it kills of the algae which the plants benefit because the don't compete with the algae to grow. I don't use these products I use actual c02 but have used it in overdose method for treatment of BBA but with immediate water change after.
 

Tankseeker

I prefer Indian almond leaves as they have no chance of doing anything bad they are alll natural
Also they are free where I come from
 

Ksway

Yea I love them as well they are great ! Just won't cure disease. Wow thats great, the cost a bit of money where I'm from unfortunately but they are worth the price!
 

Tankseeker

I also like the fact that you don’t have to meusure stuff just dump them in
 

MacZ

My experience with EsHa 2000 is from the late 1990s. The problem was that the concentration of the active ingredients was double to triple the concentration in comparable products with the same active ingredients. This led to unintentional overdoses. Most losses were found in catfish, especially Corydoras.
To my knowledge this hasn't changed. But I haven't used it in two decades either.
The other irregularity is that while other manufacturers give warnings in their instructions of what types of fish might show sideeffects, EsHa hasn't changed that either.
I find it quite disturbing that many store employees still recommend it even though at least the adverse effects on catfish are known for a while now.

About the Glutaraldehyde: We had some cases over the past 10 months here and on other sites, where people did not use the stuff appropriately. I have no use for algaecide or CO2, so I urge to extreme caution.

It's become quite important to be careful with what you say here on the forum, and basically use disclaimers. Too often people took a sidenote for granted and we have quite a lot beginners and very young inexperienced users here that sometimes get statements in a wrong way with fatal consequences for their fish. Also a mentality of "I chugg something in my tank and it will fix my problems" is nothing I would want to encourage. It's better to be over cautious under such circumstances.

Yea I love them as well they are great ! Just won't cure disease. Wow thats great, the cost a bit of money where I'm from unfortunately but they are worth the price!

Well look at that, we can agree on something. :D
 

Tankseeker

They do however make a good environment for recovery
 

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