I unexpectedly adopted Crystal Black Shrimp (Caridina) last night. Help!

So I was looking for a nice small tank to go next to my desk in my home office... and came across a local seller who was parting with an established 5 gallon tank, with 8 Crystal Black Shrimp in it. The price was a steal, since it includes everything, so of course I couldn't say no! I've got a few tanks with various Cherry Shrimp, so I figured I was ready to 'take the next step' with a shrimp for those with a bit more experience. I've done a bunch of research on these guys, and the seller answered all the questions I had. I'm really glad she was selling the whole setup, so I didn't need to worry about acclimating them to another tank, etc. But.. I have a ton more questions about keeping these guys happy and healthy, so I've come to ask the pros here on Fishlore!

Here are the details on the tank:

5 gallon Marineland Portrait
Substrate is about an inch of what she called Lava Rock Substrate, covered with 2 inches of gravel
Heater (preset keeps the water at 77)
2 Crypts
some Frogbit
8 Crystal Black Shrimp
RO water
Fully cycled, been up and running for 2 years.

So my main concern is the water. I've never used RO before, so I picked up a big jug of it yesterday, knowing I'd be moving the tank half full. When I got it home, I topped the tank up with RO water. The seller also gave me a baggie of Salty Shrimp/Bee Shrimp Mineral GH+ (and limited instructions on how to use it). I didn't add any yet. So based on my research, I gather the point of using RO water is to keep the Ph low (6.8 to 7). Well I tested the tank water last night (before topping it up with RO) and it read 7.6. Weird.... seems high, no? I'm thinking if she's only using RO water and remineralizing it, shouldn't the Ph be closer to 7? I'm wondering if the lava substrate (which I'm guessing is there to be a buffer?) is causing this? The shrimp seem happy and healthy, but she mentioned that in the 2 years she's had them, they've never bred, so she assumed they are all males. I honestly can't tell - they all look very round and thick to me (compared to Cherry Shrimp). She also said she gave some from the original lot to an uncle, who successfully kept them in tap water, but that this resulted in them not breeding. I'm wondering if the high Ph is why they haven't been breeding, rather than the idea that they're all males? Here are some (not good) pics. I'll get some better ones tonight.






Also, I've not yet checked the GH or KH, will do that tonight, and I've got a TDS meter on the way from Amazon (arriving Saturday). Hopefully that will help get some more info on what's going on in this tank. Also will be checking nitrate level. Apparently, there was one guppy in this tank up until she gave it to me yesterday, he was moved to another tank of hers.

Re the heater, I feel like I should take it out... 77 seems to high to me. Shouldn't they be kept at around 71 - 74? Is it ok to just take it out, and let the temp naturally lower to the room temperature (72)? Not sure how else to do that 'gradually', since its a preset heater.

I'd like to change out the substrate completely, but don't want to mess with too much at this point. My plan (once I've established the full water parameters) is to correct the water to the best possible conditions for these guys. Then I can worry about rescaping the tank. The substrate is kind of awful looking (in my opinion), and actually makes it hard to see the shrimp

Oh, I should also mention that the seller said she 'cleans the tank once a month, and tops up the water once a week', so that doesn't sound like a very good water change schedule to me.

Thanks in advance everyone, really appreciate any help you can give!
richie.p hoping you have some advice for me

 

HI algonquin you've got a lot to go through here and your doing it right so far by not messing and getting to grips with the water which is the most important
The temp of 77f =25c is a tad high but not over the top and they've been living in that for quite a while so let it stay there, if they are 2years old they are close to the end.
I think you'll find your gh is high which will stop them breeding also your ph should be 6.5 so that needs to come down, now I use a substrait to buffer my ph snd minerals like you've been given to get the gh to 5 any higher is no good so the main things to sort first are your gh/kh/ph get these readings and let's take it from there. It looks like the previous owner wasn't quite up to speed to breed these but she didn't loose any. Have a look for a substrait that will buffer your water or you'll have to use chemicals
You can also think about doing fortnight water changes to start at 15,% this will help get lost minerals back into the water and condition the shrimp

 

I'll be testing the GH & KH tonight - so if those are high, is it likely because of the substrate? Or would that be from the minerals she's been adding to the RO water, with what appears to be minimal water changes?

Another question - when I do water changes, am I remineralizing just the new water being added? Or do I 'dose for the whole tank'? I'm not sure how long the minerals stay in the water before they are depleted.

thanks so much!

 

The lack of water changes reduces the mineral content and over time the bad become dominant resulting in health problems with shrimp, once you have your gh readings I can advise better, we don't know if she controlled her gh with the minerals but that will show later.
Now let me know at any time if you don't understand what I'm saying so I can break things down better.
If you have a gh reading of 5 then you mix very small amounts of minerals to the RO water until its at 5 ,this water is then added to your tank.
Taking it a step further there's an easier method to do your mix and that's with a TDS meter and it the system I've used for years.
Once the tank is settled you do gh test if that comes out at 5 you then take a tds reading of the tank hopefully that will be around TDS 130 so the next mineral mix you do you add minerals until you have a reading of around TDS 130 this should always bring your gh to 5 maybe 6 or 4 so once a month do a gh reading
Now each week you will have to top off this ix done with pure RO water
The day you change the water take a tds reading and the chances are it will be up by a much as 10 points if this is the case the next mineral mix will be mixed down to 120 this will off set the high reading and keep the gh stable

 

Ok, that all makes sense. I guess it will take some practice to get to know the correct amount of minerals I need to add each time. I'll test the water tonight and see what the results look like.

In the meantime, can you please advise on how to sex these shrimp? I can easily tell with Cherry shrimp which are male and female, but these all seem roundish to me. Also, any thoughts on the grade? It really doesn't matter so much to me, but I'm just curious. I'm thinking they're on the lower end, since they have a lot of stripes? (I gather the less stripey they are, the higher the grade?) If they do end up all being males, I would add a few females, and have access to all the different grades.

thanks very much!

 

Heres a pic of a female now if you cut the bit off below the line it would be a Male
I'm not sure if I see one female in that pic but some better side view will give it away, you very rarely see the saddle on these guys
As for grading they are at the lower end but great to start you can see what we call
Traits Depression it where you look at the white and it's not crisp or it breaking in places and the black you can see areas where its brownish that's where there's red creeping in but there's nothing wrong with them and get them to breed and things will improve, compare your colours with mine and you'll see a difference and mine are not the best I do have better, because of their age think of these as your practice run

 

So sexing these guys is pretty much the same as sexing Cherries (aside from the saddle)? I'll get some better pics tonight, but so far, all the ones I've looked at up close look female to me. Fingers crossed Hoping I can get the water sorted out and get them breeding before they run out of time!

 

Your 8hrs behind me I normally stay on till midnight sometimes 1am and pick back up at 7am
And yes sexing is the same

 

Ah... forgot about the time difference! You will be sound asleep in your little bed while I'm Gh testing tonight Thanks for all the help, much appreciated.

 

No doubt there'll be others about

 

I've only kept neo shrimp like you, but I agree, pH 7.6 is crazy high considering you started with a half filled tank and topped the rest with RO. That means pH was even higher to start with.

Also I agree, topping off and doing a small change once a month is not a good water change routine. Topping off the water only dilutes the biproducts and 'stuff' in the water. Maybe she was replenishing minerals without changing water? Was she monitoring pH, KH, GH and TDS? At least by using RO to top off, you are not adding to the TDS, but was the previous owner using RO to top off?

If the substrate is indeed lava, that shouldn't raise pH as it is inert, but if it has aragonite, it is probably raising KH.

Just my 0.02 cents, hopefully you get it in the right zone with Richie's help.

 

Thanks angelcraze - I appreciate the input!
I actually tested the Ph while the tank was half empty, not after I added RO to fill it back up. She did say she was only using RO on this tank, for changes and top offs.
So I'm not clear on if the substrate is what was raising the Ph so much, or if it had to do with the minerals she was adding back. She didn't seem to know much about Kh, so I'm going to assume that means no testing of that

Once I do some testing, and have a better look at the shrimp tonight, I should have some better info to go from. I'm gonna bet there are females in there, just not reproducing since the water isn't right.

 

Thanks angelcraze - I appreciate the input!
I actually tested the Ph while the tank was half empty, not after I added RO to fill it back up. She did say she was only using RO on this tank, for changes and top offs.
So I'm not clear on if the substrate is what was raising the Ph so much, or if it had to do with the minerals she was adding back. She didn't seem to know much about Kh, so I'm going to assume that means no testing of that

Once I do some testing, and have a better look at the shrimp tonight, I should have some better info to go from. I'm gonna bet there are females in there, just not reproducing since the water isn't right.

Oh ok, that makes more sense then. So pH is now lower? Can you test pH, KH, GH and TDS now?
I agree, I doubt they are all male and the water just wasn't right especially if she doesn't test KH, GH and TDS. I say it is a must for keeping caridina shrimp.

 

I only tested the water once, for Ph, last night. I got home with the tank at 9pm, so the focus was getting it plugged in and set up and topped up. I really wanted to stay up til midnight and tinker with everything, but I needed to get to bed
I'll test it again tonight (I'm not there right now) and see what the results are. I'll also be testing everything else too and see where it's at. I'll also try to get some better pictures of the shrimp, after giving the glass a good clean.

I'm also 'questioning' the ugly gravel... it's really sharp and ragged - kinda has the look of smashed up bricks. I'm wondering if there is something in it that is possibly affecting the water hardness too.

 

I'm also 'questioning' the ugly gravel... it's really sharp and ragged - kinda has the look of smashed up bricks. I'm wondering if there is something in it that is possibly affecting the water hardness too.

Could very well be if it's not igneous.

 

That gravel may well be affecting ph and probably gh as well, it's not my choice of substrate.
I had a tank once where the gh went to 11 in a red crystal tank and it was all down the slate

 

I'm hoping to replace all the substrate at some point, but will take it one step at a time. I don't want to upset these little stripey guys

 

So I have some MAJOR NEWS this morning! THERE IS A BABY SHRIMP IN THE TANK!!!!!! I couldn't believe it... was trying to sex the shrimp last night, and suddenly noticed this little guy, (right in the middle, on the wood) -sorry for the awful pic.




I'm so happy about this! So, there are obviously females in this tank. I have ID'd 2 females out of the 8, the other 6 appear to be males. The presence of this baby (who appears to be at bare minimum a month old) tells me there are females, and they are breeding, but I've got 3 thoughts on why the previous owner never had/saw babies...
1. The questionable water?
2. The filter intake could be sucking in babies (see pic)


It's an 'integrated' filter compartment, and this is the intake. There is a large, coarse sponge squished right up against the intake inside the compartment, but I'm quite sure tiny babies could climb in or get sucked in. I will be vacuuming out the filter compartment tonight, we'll see what we find in there. I'll also be putting some mesh against the opening, to try to keep babies out. Eventually, I'll switch to a sponge filter and not use the built in filter.
3. There was a guppy in the tank, not sure for how long, who could have made a snack of new babies (they're probably pretty easy to spot for a fish).

So that's great news overall, I'm really excited about it! Now, on to the water test results.

Ph - 7.8 So, the original tank water, with the tank half empty was 7.6 to 7.8. After topping up the other 50% on Wed night with RO water (which tested at 6.4) the Ph was 7.8. Last night, I did a 25% water change, mainly to clean out the tons of debris in the sponge. The new water I put back in was RO, with a very small amount of the Salty Bee GH+ added to it. (I googled the dosage, and did my best to estimate the amount to add.) Tested Ph again this morning, still 7.8. (seriously? my tap water has a Ph of 7.8!)

KH - 0 or 1 (not sure on this one.) Here's a pic of the tests I did - the left side test tube has 2 drops, the right side has 1 drop. Basically, the water is supposed to turn from blue to yellow. For this water, it never turned blue at all, just went straight to yellow with one drop... so does that mean the KH is 0 or 1? Either way, it's very very low. (I did the KH test twice, just to be sure it was accurate, and also on my tap water, which is KH 6). Does this indicate more minerals need to be added?




GH - 5. Is this a reasonable level for these shrimp?

Nitrate - 5 (seems about expected, with the low bioload, and water changes only being done once a month).

So I'm more convinced than ever now that the substrate is bringing the Ph way up. So the question is, how do I bring the Ph down, without shocking everyone, and what do I replace the substrate with that will act as a buffer? I'm not very experienced in working with Ph/Kh/Gh, so I want to do this right. Can I gradually remove scoops of the substrate every couple of days?? Something like that? OR... is it even necessary to worry about reducing the Ph? If they are 'ok' and reproducing in this water, should I just gradually switch to tap water? (My tap has a Ph of 7.8, Kh is 6 and Gh is 10). Not really sure what to do going forward.

Thanks everyone!

Oh I forgot to mention that the TDS meter coming from Amazon will arrive today! Then I can see where those levels are at

 

Nice to see a baby but he is way over a month old looking at him, now as for your water these guys need specific conditions which is made up of
RO water mineralise to 130tds
Gh of 5 kh1-2-3 ph 6.5 these will only be achieved with RO water
Your kh works hand in hand with the ph and is there purely to stop you ph swings
High ph swings will kill your shrimp
Do not use tap water
That filter needs some serious rethink or take it out completely and replaced with a sponge but you can't do a straight swap you need to get a sponge going in there for at least a month before the change run them side by side or seed a sponge in a different tank if there's no room.
No the awkward one your substrait. It no good fighting it with z buffer as it won't work one will always be fighting the other so that needs to come out and changed for one that will buffer your ph and feed your plants see if this one is available to you its called
Florsa Base Pro (picture) my tanks have play sand in the front and Flora in the back 50/50 and 1 to 1½ deep

 

Ok... that all makes sense! Thanks very much. But of course, I have more questions

What will bring my Kh up to 1, 2 or 3? A different substrate, or the minerals I'm adding to the water? Still trying to wrap my head around all this.

I don't have access to that Colombo substrate... I will try to see what is available here that might be comparable. Once I find something, how do I go about changing it, without causing a big Ph swing? Going from 7.8 down to 6.5 is a pretty huge jump.

Re the filter, I've got a sponge filter running in another tank that is well seeded and can be moved in to this tank anytime Knew that would come in handy!!

** I think Fluval Plant & Shrimp Stratum is the comparable product here.

 

Here's a pic of the current substrate from the side, you can see the volcanic stuff underneath the gravel. It's quite a thick layer of gravel.

 

Theres an easy way and a hard way to do all this in one go.
The hard way is to slowly remove the substrait being careful not to disturb things to much and cause an ammonia spike as it's only a 5gal, you can take it out in sections over a few days and as you free up space use a tube to layer the new substrait. If you use Fluval stratum be gentle as is will cloud your water but clear over a day or so, so make sure you have some good floss in the filter to help with clearing.
The easy way and my personal preferd way
(BUT YOU MAY LOOSE ONE OR TWO SHRIMP)
Remove all loose objects including heater except substrait. Take out the filter media and put in a bucket with Aquarium water from another tank, check with a torch that there's no shrimp in the filter, then siphon out the tank water into another bucket with heater once you have half in there you can ether net the shrimp (use a proper shrimp net) into the bucket any left can be siphoned straight over which won't hurt them but use s small tube have the heater on with an air stone
Once all the water is out empty the gravel and layer your new substrait at the same time get some Aquarium water in a spray bottle and spray the walls to keep your biofilm alive, when your ready reverse the process slowly not to disturb the substrait and add the shrimp. I've done this a few times now and it works just plan it out and it will not take long, the choice is yours or do something which you think is better for you.
The ph drop shouldn't be that drastic it should drop slowly,
The other option would be to refill the tank with RO water reminerilisde to 130and leave it run for 24hrs then remove half the shrimp water and drip them with water from the new tank and as the shrimp fill remove the water back to the new tank this way they re acclimatise. Theres lots of options for you to look at
Do what's best for you I can only give ideas

 

Thanks Richiep, I appreciate the advice & options. I like your 'preferred' way the best I think. Will consider this on the weekend, and try to figure out what will work best in this situation.
There's a good chance I'll be back with more questions
Thanks again, I very much appreciate the help!

 

HI all, so as promised, a couple more questions...

I got my TDS meter, and the tank measures at 99. So I believe I'm just at the bottom end of what is the preferable range? Also, good news, I spotted a second baby (smaller than the first) and also a molt. So it seems they are breeding and molting successfully in the current environment.

I cleaned out the filter compartment, didn't find any babies in there, but a lot of gunk and waste I put some floss in between the coarse sponge and the filter intake, so it's still filtering nicely, but no babies can get thru the gaps.

I've tracked down where I can get the small bag of Fluval Shrimp Stratum, and will pick it up this week. On the weekend, I'll switch out the current gravel with this. I had an idea about putting some of the old substrate into a few media bags, and putting it into the filter compartment, for the purpose of keeping the Ph stable... then removing one bag every few days. Is this a good/bad idea? Will this help to accomplish the plan of lowering the Ph gradually? Would love some thoughts on this.

Thanks everyone!