I have angelfish wigglers!!!

2 weeks? So they lived to 2 weeks free swimming 3 weeks total so was close i guess. I'll try again next set and try to feed them a lot less. Hopefully i'll have more so feeding is easier.

 

Well the good parents laid eggs again (2 days ago) so i guess i can try again in about 4 days depending where they put the wrigglers. The one thing annoying about this time is they laid the eggs on a anubia b. leaf right where i feed the loaches (i have 8 yoyo/gold zebra mix, and 5 clowns, 5 zebra - so 18 hungry loaches that came there looking for food)

 

Well it looks like i have new wrigglers but oddly the fishes haven't moved them and they are still on the leaf where they laid them as eggs. The problem is that the loaches live in that part of the tank so anything that falls of the leaf is instant food. I'm not prepare to deal with them today so i think i'll give the angel another day or two with them.
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I do have one question if i kidnap the wrigglers do i need to do anything special as you do with eggs or can they safely rest at the bottom of the pail until they become free swimming ? Given the leaf they are on i would stick a container under them and brush them off rather than tear this leaf off.

 

Good Question.
Here is my attempt with Bolivians.
When I stumbled into breeding, I scrambled, went nuts with the first spawn. LOL
Most research said to be careful the parents might eat them. So, I removed about half of the wigglers. Put them into a 1gal container with a sponge filter, heater and a plant. Good survival rate with both batches.Now, I just leave them with the parents. May try something different when I am ready to continue my Ram breeding. I have tried breeder boxes with Angels spawns since they were always eating the eggs/wigglers, but never any success.

Curious what other Angel breeders have tried and their results.

coralbandit

Good Luck!

 

Well it looks like i have new wrigglers but oddly the fishes haven't moved them and they are still on the leaf where they laid them as eggs. The problem is that the loaches live in that part of the tank so anything that falls of the leaf is instant food. I'm not prepare to deal with them today so i think i'll give the angel another day or two with them.
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I do have one question if i kidnap the wrigglers do i need to do anything special as you do with eggs or can they safely rest at the bottom of the pail until they become free swimming ? Given the leaf they are on i would stick a container under them and brush them off rather than tear this leaf off.

Rather than transferring them to a pail, have you thought about putting them in a breeder net in the same tank?

Do you have food for them?

 

I can hatch bbs - i'm not worried about the parents eating them - it is the other fishes in the tank. Some of the loaches are quite large. I have the following:
these nets for guppy frys that hang in the tank;
marina boxes which can pump water from the tank and overflow back into the tank and 5 gallon pails. The advantages of pails i can do a daily water change - the marina boxes are kind of pain to clean because they only hang behind the tank (they need the slit in the back for their piping) - the net is an option. my first set lasted 2 weeks free swimming but i was over feeding them massively since there was only a couple. The net might be a good option - also i can scoot it down during water changes. Not sure it is fine enough for angel frys.

Rather than transferring them to a pail, have you thought about putting them in a breeder net in the same tank?

Do you have food for them?

 

I can hatch bbs - i'm not worried about the parents eating them - it is the other fishes in the tank. Some of the loaches are quite large. I have the following:
these nets for guppy frys that hang in the tank;
marina boxes which can pump water from the tank and overflow back into the tank and 5 gallon pails. The advantages of pails i can do a daily water change - the marina boxes are kind of pain to clean because they only hang behind the tank (they need the slit in the back for their piping) - the net is an option. my first set lasted 2 weeks free swimming but i was over feeding them massively since there was only a couple. The net might be a good option - also i can scoot it down during water changes. Not sure it is fine enough for angel frys.

About the breeder net, they definitely complicate water changes. Especially the Marina brand boxes IMO.

I started my GBR swimmers off in a very simple and cheap net.


After a week or 2, they got this upgrade. Aquarium Fish & Shrimp EZ Breeder Box Ziss Aqua

Both boxes hang inside the tank, so water changes were only slightly more complicated.

And now I have a 15 gallon tank for future swimmers.

 

Yea that net is what i have. Mine didn't come from petco but i'm pretty sure it is the same thing. I think the box is easier to clean than the net - anyway i don't have time to deal with it today but i'll see where they are tomorrow. It does look like they intend to move them soon as they are poking around for higher up leaves.

I started my GBR swimmers off in a very simple and cheap net.


After a week or 2, they got this upgrade. Aquarium Fish & Shrimp EZ Breeder Box Ziss Aqua

Both boxes hang inside the tank, so water changes were only slightly more complicated.

And now I have a 15 gallon tank for future swimmers.

 

Angels wigglers have 'adhesive' from when they eggs on their heads . Everything sticks to them and they stick to bottom of whatever you put them in .They stick in blobs together even .
I like the dip and pour hanging in the breeding tank but that is just me .They should be separated from the parents .Most angles make lousy parents [ like rams] ...
Smaller containers make it easier for free swimmers to find food .They have no clue so it really needs to be right in front of them .
2 weeks is the magic number like many other fish .In the first 2 weeks you should suffer your greatest losses and after that they should become more stable ..Once they are 2 weeks you can place them in a larger separate container .I like thing that hang/float in the tank just to keep their temperature stable ..
Air stone or small sponge on very low for first 2 weeks then you bump up the air volume .

 

Angels wigglers have 'adhesive' from when they eggs on their heads . Everything sticks to them and they stick to bottom of whatever you put them in .They stick in blobs together even .
I like the dip and pour hanging in the breeding tank but that is just me .They should be separated from the parents .Most angles make lousy parents [ like rams] ...
Smaller containers make it easier for free swimmers to find food .They have no clue so it really needs to be right in front of them .
2 weeks is the magic number like many other fish .In the first 2 weeks you should suffer your greatest losses and after that they should become more stable ..Once they are 2 weeks you can place them in a larger separate container .I like thing that hang/float in the tank just to keep their temperature stable ..
Air stone or small sponge on very low for first 2 weeks then you bump up the air volume .

Maybe a silly question Tom, but what is dip and pour?

 

Ok. I got really close the first time - 2 weeks of free swimming before the last 3 died (I started with 10). I guess I'll put them in a marina dish and use a turkey blaster for water changes and feed them a lot less. I won't run the pump on the marina dish since they would float right out. I will say the pair of angels i have made good parents to the free swimming stage (i removed the angels about an hour before they went free swimming (or the last of them went free swimming) which is why i only got 10.
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Do they become bad parents at a later stage or is this a good indication they could handle them free swimming ?
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Lets see this morning was the first day as wrigglers so i guess sunday night monday morning they will start swimming away so i'll wait till sunday morning to kidnap them so the parents can mess with keeping them whatever.

Angels wigglers have 'adhesive' from when they eggs on their heads . Everything sticks to them and they stick to bottom of whatever you put them in .They stick in blobs together even .
I like the dip and pour hanging in the breeding tank but that is just me .They should be separated from the parents .Most angles make lousy parents [ like rams] ...
Smaller containers make it easier for free swimmers to find food .They have no clue so it really needs to be right in front of them .
2 weeks is the magic number like many other fish .In the first 2 weeks you should suffer your greatest losses and after that they should become more stable ..Once they are 2 weeks you can place them in a larger separate container .I like thing that hang/float in the tank just to keep their temperature stable ..
Air stone or small sponge on very low for first 2 weeks then you bump up the air volume .

 

Yeah. They moved the wrigglers to a leaf that is easy to remove.

 

Maybe a silly question Tom, but what is dip and pour?

 

Hum. Can you hang specimen containers in the tank? Those dip and pour look a lot like specimen containers with sprouts.

Dunk2 how well did it work to use the net? The big advantage i see of that is then i don't have to mess with water changes the first two weeks though i should still use a turkey blaster to remove dead bbs from the bottom of the net. I have large and small marina containers and specimen containers (which look like coralbandit but no sprout) and nets. The first time i had put them in a 5 gallon pail with a live sponge and 50 watt heater but i'd like to avoid the daily water changes this time around since i have to spend a lot of time helping my parents.

 

jake37 The net worked fine except. . .
1. If the net you have is exactly like mine, it only has 1 low quality suction cap. Because it didn’t hold the net very well and would periodically lose grip and slide down the glass a bit, I had to keep a close eye on it and re-attach it just about daily.
2. Even with consistent water changes, the net got pretty slimy/dirty quick. I never did figure out a way to clean it well with the swimmers in it. I used a turkey baster to clean gunk from the bottom of the net, but you obviously need to be very careful to not suck up any swimmers.
3. This is going to be true with any net or breeder box, but you need to pause your water changes a few times to adjust the height of the net in the tank. I don’t think you’d have that issue with the Drip and Pour that coralbandit suggested. He’ll correct me if I’m wrong, but from the picture he posted you can hang the Drip and Pour on the tank.

I didn’t have issues with 1 and 2 after I got the Ziss breeder box.

 

I'm confused about one thing - with the dip and pour box you hang it outside the aquarium so isn't heat an issue? Of course right now that is mute since the room is the tank temp (summer).

Also my net has 4 suction cups - one on each corner. I've used it before with guppies (which i don't bother with anymore since too many frys make it to adulthood without assistance).
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I have boxes i can hang on the side (outside) of the tank - maybe i'll just use one of them. I have to take the wrigglers out tomorrow when i do a water change since the angels put them at the top of the tank (they did this last time).
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Because they are managing the wrigglers do you think the parents could raise the free swimmers if i left them in ?

jake37 The net worked fine except. . .
1. If the net you have is exactly like mine, it only has 1 low quality suction cap. Because it didn’t hold the net very well and would periodically lose grip and slide down the glass a bit, I had to keep a close eye on it and re-attach it just about daily.
2. Even with consistent water changes, the net got pretty slimy/dirty quick. I never did figure out a way to clean it well with the swimmers in it. I used a turkey baster to clean gunk from the bottom of the net, but you obviously need to be very careful to not suck up any swimmers.
3. This is going to be true with any net or breeder box, but you need to pause your water changes a few times to adjust the height of the net in the tank. I don’t think you’d have that issue with the Drip and Pour that coralbandit suggested. He’ll correct me if I’m wrong, but from the picture he posted you can hang the Drip and Pour on the tank.

I didn’t have issues with 1 and 2 after I got the Ziss breeder box.

 

I'm confused about one thing - with the dip and pour box you hang it outside the aquarium so isn't heat an issue? Of course right now that is mute since the room is the tank temp (summer).

Also my net has 4 suction cups - one on each corner. I've used it before with guppies (which i don't bother with anymore since too many frys make it to adulthood without assistance).
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I have boxes i can hang on the side (outside) of the tank - maybe i'll just use one of them. I have to take the wrigglers out tomorrow when i do a water change since the angels put them at the top of the tank (they did this last time).
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Because they are managing the wrigglers do you think the parents could raise the free swimmers if i left them in ?

coralbandit will jump in if I say something stupid. . .

The Dip and Pour hangs inside the aquarium.

About the parents raising the swimmers. . .

My GBRs sort of progressed from eating the eggs pretty quick after spawning to leaving the eggs until wigglers and even free swimmers appeared. But the free swimmers never lasted very long.

I may be completely wrong about this, but I think one of the reasons the free swimmers haven’t lasted in my tank is because there are other GBR (in addition to the parents) in the tank? The parents eat them because they feel threatened (or they’re just not great parents) or the other GBR eat them?

 

Dip in pour goes in the tank for heat .
No problems changing water in tank since it hangs and holds water .I change about 1 liter a day in the dip and pour which is quick and easy .I use a turkey baster to remove large junk and then dip a small 12 ounce plastic cup into the dip and pour to remove other water .I replace with clean new water not tank water .
This how I have the best success raising all fish .
The dip and pour with no spots is fine it is just a different brand [ Lee's] and I use them also .
I own about 75 dip and pours for when it gets busy . I change water in them for first week and then sometimes move fry to a 2 or 3 gallon tank or just pour them into a new clean dip and pour as they get slimy ..
I found most nets are not big enough for free swimmers the first week and they either slip[ through or even get sucked out by the parents or other fish in tank .
Dunk2 having more then one pair in tank under 20g will rarely work .
I keep my pairs separated but they are neighbors and see each other keeping the spirit of competition alive between pairs ..I also place a piece of anything white between the tanks half way up so the bottom of the tank[where fry are ] is private territory but the top is exposed so the pairs see each other when swimming and feeding .

 

Thanks! for sharing coralbandit
The pairs I have from you are scattered in a few Community tanks for now. Going to give breeding using your system/layout a "Try" in the fall.

 

Ok and it begins. I stole the wrigglers and put them in a marina container. It doens't fit on the 120 so i hung it off the 29. One went free swimming the others are still on the leaf and if they are all swimming tomorrow morning i will feed them bbs tomorrow afternoon. I started cooking the bbs so i have something for them and hopefully the timing will be correct.
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It is hanging outside but that part of the room is 79-80.

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Is it safe to put a few drops of prime in the marina dish to neutralize ammonia. I'll do daily water changes but with such a small volume of water bit concern.

 

Ok and it begins. I stole the wrigglers and put them in a marina container. It doens't fit on the 120 so i hung it off the 29. One went free swimming the others are still on the leaf and if they are all swimming tomorrow morning i will feed them bbs tomorrow afternoon. I started cooking the bbs so i have something for them and hopefully the timing will be correct.
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It is hanging outside but that part of the room is 79-80.View attachment 713598
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Is it safe to put a few drops of prime in the marina dish to neutralize ammonia. I'll do daily water changes but with such a small volume of water bit concern.

Good luck and keep us updated!

I don’t think a very small amount of Prime would hurt. I used it during water changes with swimmers with no issues. You have some sort of circulation and biomedia in the box?

 

Just the tiny sponge filter you see - it does not have live bacteria - i had to dry it out last week - unfortunately all of my other sponge filters are too large - and the extra one i have is being used to treat a cory (one of my cory has had fungus for about 6 months so i decided to try treating him with pimafix - i don't think it will help him and if he is not clear by monday (7 days of treatment) I will put him back in the tank. Maybe it is mucus instead of fungus ? Anyway i tried.
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When i get the basket with suction cup that we talked about i will transfer them back into the 120 (if they are alive). I think there are between 30 and 60 - a few fell off when i grab the leaf - the angels wouldn't let me near it until they went to chase someone the other female than i snagged it.

Good luck and keep us updated!

I don’t think a very small amount of Prime would hurt. I used it during water changes with swimmers with no issues. You have some sort of circulation and biomedia in the box?

 

Those are the sponge filters I use in the dip and pours !
They are great as you can completely clean the sponge in tap water and bacteria still live in the gravel.
Well done !

Just the tiny sponge filter you see - it does not have live bacteria - i had to dry it out last week .

Odds are there is still leve bacteria on the stones in the bottom of the sponge .
Even old dried out filters left dirty work better then new and often spring back to life in a very short time IMO.
I use water from my 32g brute for water changes in my dip and pours as it is usually aged a day or so and is always proper temp .
Good luck man !
jmaldo you should be very pleased when you try the dip and pours .Even if you only use them for first week or two they make it happen in my book !

 

In the event they make it past two weeks I think i needed something to compare them with so for completeness:

 

Should i have put some meth. blue in with the wrigglers ? I've noticed that a few have died or are alive at the bottom with a bit of fungus around them. Not sure if the meth. blue would kill them or help them. The one free swimmer died but most of them are still on the leaf as wriggler with a few (10?) at the bottom but alive and still wrigglers.
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Didn't change the water today since i didn't put in any food.

 

I know coralbandit does with the eggs to prevent fungus, I do not recall if he uses it with wigglers.
Hey, Tom!

 

As soon as eggs become wigglers I remove the MB with water changes .
I am no where near as successful with my Dantum angels as rams but do have a few silver dantums now about 2 weeks old .Maybe 7-10 or so .I just moved them from a large dip and pour to a 2 gallon tank with some ram fry for company .Fingers crossed though as I never know what will happen with angel fry ?

 

Ok. Mine are still wrigglers. The brine shrimp is going to be two days old by the time they swim. Hum. Maybe i'll redo it.

 

Bit confused - as this is always the hardest part. This is day 6+ and most of them appear to be still wrigglers with egg sacks (tiny egg sacks). At least 2 or 3 died - one i was able to suck up but the other were connected to a bunch of wrigglers and wouldn't come free.
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I put in a little bbs since this is day 6+. I'm torn here because i don't want to pollute the water but i also don't want to miss the first feeding period. A few of the wrigglers became free swimming when they saw the bbs and took chase and I think more than one actually ate. I'll check them again in about 8 hours and if they blink give them just a tiny bit more bbs and then start cooking a new batch of bbs.
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I'll do the first water change tomorrow morning - i guess around 50% to remove some of the dead bbs.
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I gave them a little more since i have to leave for the night soon. It seems that a bunch is stuck in that sticky stuff and i'm not sure how to free them. Their egg sacks are pretty small now if completely gone. The stuff i fed them is 2 day old bbs which might be too large for them. Tomorrow morning i can feed them fresh bbs if they are still alive. I tried to squirt a little with eye dropper to sep them from the sticky stuff but not sure if i should be mucking with them. The few swimming seem to chase the bbs but not sure they could eat it.

 

And we have lift all. This morning around 5am most were still sitting at the bottom in a clump. I tried to vacuum out one large chunk of 'sticky' stuff. Around 8am when the lights went on many (70%?) went to the top - i fed them twice just a tiny bit (since the bbs is just hatching) at 5am and 8:30am. During the second feeding i watched with a magnifying glass and definitely saw them eating. I guess it took closer to 7 days for them to become free swimming. For some reason i thought it would be five. I'll feed them again around 10:30 or 11 as the bbs hatch and again 4:30pm before i leave for the night.

 

And we have lift all. This morning around 5am most were still sitting at the bottom in a clump. I tried to vacuum out one large chunk of 'sticky' stuff. Around 8am when the lights went on many (70%?) went to the top - i fed them twice just a tiny bit (since the bbs is just hatching) at 5am and 8:30am. During the second feeding i watched with a magnifying glass and definitely saw them eating. I guess it took closer to 7 days for them to become free swimming. For some reason i thought it would be five. I'll feed them again around 10:30 or 11 as the bbs hatch and again 4:30pm before i leave for the night.

Awesome!

Just be careful not to over feed. coralbandit will know better than me what the best feeding schedule is, but I fed my GBR swimmers 2 or 3 at most times a day.

 

Yea i'll do a vacuum water replacement before the last feeding today. Watching them careful i'm not sure they can all eat the bbs - some of them look like the need something smaller. I tell you the kribs are a lot easier - i don't have to do anything with the kribs - the parents do everything (I also have about 30 baby kribs being paraded by the parents around their tank)

Awesome!

Just be careful not to over feed. coralbandit will know better than me what the best feeding schedule is, but I fed my GBR swimmers 2 or 3 at most times a day.

 

Some say angel fry need to be fed 6 times a day ?
I rarely can manage that schedule and have done well on 2-3 feedings a day , if I do well at all.
For a smaller prepared food look into Golden Pearls 100 micron .

 

I have a few baby (well baby fish) foods that are probably small enough but not sure if i should pollute the water or if they will go after powder (maybe they will if it falls right in front of them). I'll dip my tooth pick in it and put a tiny bit in. One of them is Dr. bassleer food - the bottle sez it is .2 to .5mm so a bit larger than .1mm to .2mm stuff coralbandit recommended but i have it in front of me and don't have to wait a few days... I also have hiraki first bite but it doesn't state the granuals size.
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I am curious where you got your drip and pour containers as they don't show up as being available anywhere.

 

I have a few baby (well baby fish) foods that are probably small enough but not sure if i should pollute the water or if they will go after powder (maybe they will if it falls right in front of them). I'll dip my tooth pick in it and put a tiny bit in. One of them is Dr. bassleer food - the bottle sez it is .2 to .5mm so a bit larger than .1mm to .2mm stuff coralbandit recommended but i have it in front of me and don't have to wait a few days... I also have hiraki first bite but it doesn't state the granuals size.
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I am curious where you got your drip and pour containers as they don't show up as being available anywhere.

Here’s the Lee brand.
Amazon.com : Lee's 18673 Break Resistant Specimen Container, Large : Pet Supplies

Dip ’N Pour Discontinued?
Dip & Pour Multi-Purpose Container - Tom's Aquatics (DISCONTINUED)

 

I have several plastic specimen containers per this picture - just not ones with pouring sprouts
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I have angel wrigglers !! What now ? | 461864 | Breeding Fish
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Guess Tom purchased all of them and they broke the mold
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Anyway pouring isn't that hard using the corners. By friday i should have the in tank thingy and i'll move them to that so i don't have to do daily water changes - though it will be hard to clean it since i have to use a magnifying glass to see the bbs on the bottom to turkey suck it up.

Here’s the Lee brand.
Amazon.com : Lee's 18673 Break Resistant Specimen Container, Large : Pet Supplies

Dip ’N Pour Discontinued?
Dip & Pour Multi-Purpose Container - Tom's Aquatics (DISCONTINUED)

 

I would go with the hikari first bites .
I have the 3 sizes of the Bassleer food and they are good but the smallest is for after 2 weeks IMO ..
The hikaris is almost dust which is what you want .Most angel fry should be able to eat BBS so try that again tomorrow and maybe you will have better results .

 

Thanks coralbandit I forgot about Golden Pearls, work for me.
Good Luck!

 

It is going ok i guess. The routine is feed them; wait 3 hours vacuum some of the dead bbs; feed them again on hour 4 - 3 times a day. 3 or 4 of the frys have died but at least 40 of them are alive. ammonia rose to .25. 12 more days to go.

 

It is going ok i guess. The routine is feed them; wait 3 hours vacuum some of the dead bbs; feed them again on hour 4 - 3 times a day. 3 or 4 of the frys have died but at least 40 of them are alive. ammonia rose to .25. 12 more days to go.

A lot of work, isn’t it!