I gravel Vacuummed yet again...

I couldn't get rid of a water stinch, even changed the water many times. Bloodworms make it stink. Anyway, I turned the tank upside down. I just wanted to show you that they push 3 in there. They are so cute. I just hope they aren't stuck! Lol. They are scared.

 

when my tank smells it usually means it's time to add more carbon

 

Maybe cut back on the bloodworms? There are other frozen food options that are just as good, if not better, for them.

Your tank shouldn't smell bad.

 

when my tank smells it usually means it's time to add more carbon

I do not use carbon because it messes with the elements in the water... I can reduce the blood worms. I know it is the smell of them because it smells like that when I smell the package. So I was tying to get every last piece of it. I dunno. I will use less

I added a new water pump and I don't like how much my plants sway but they love it, and I see them out there right now trying to swim in it, well 6 of them anyway. It is their own waterpark.

What frozen foods?

 

What elements in the water does it mess with?

I like frozen brine shrimp and mysis shrimp. Frozen spirulina combo packs and frozen blackworms are good too.

 

Most of the trace elements bind to the carbon, and through ion exchanges cause particular deficiencies in the fish. It causes wide issues, and is the only known cause of lateral line disease or hole in the head. If you use seachem fresh trace it will counteract most effects, but it will use a lot of the carbons abilities. The reason it can is because its nearly only carbon, so when it reacts with ions, then carbon molecules are formed, but these do not easily cross the gills like ions.

A compound that contains more elements is preferred because ones that are adsorbed or are converted to carbon compounds could be exchahged back into the water more easily as ions to cross the gills.

I use purigen if anything bc they say it doesn't affect ions. Which probably means that it contains ions itself. So there is little net effect. Because it needs to stay wet, this is more evidence that it contains ions- because water is charged

hole in the head is the only disease we can attribute, but there is plenty of research that says it puts them susceptible to a very wide range of problems.

 

HITH from carbon was debunked a while ago.

 

HITH from carbon was debunked a while ago.

Show me! I can provide studies where it is not! Actually, it was only within the past 2-3 years or so that we realized what is the culprit and now we are stopping use of carbon in many farms because of the other issues that we were not aware of...

How about this, you start taking in a lot of less of your calcium and other ions and let's see how well you do. ;-)

 

HITH is caused by the parasites Hexamita and Spironcleus.

 

Partially correct! Their was a recent study... What this study showed was carbon + hexamita. When they examined the fishes tissues what they discovered was there were not enough ions. They tried to figure out why, so they eventually found out that it was due to carbon. The reduction in ions lead to immune deficiencies which allowed hexamita to form hole in the head. So, if it can do that with hexamata, imagine what else it does to the fish. I will look for the study.

First is older... It is observational

https://www.int-res.com/abstracts/dao/v45/n3/p197-202/

2001

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08997659.2011.608608?cookieSet=1?src=recsys

newer research (second is experimental, they induced the hole in the head) I will send more hold up

Here is how it adsorbs ions such as zinc and fluorine (which are required by fish) - but of course harmful ions too. Also, other ions required by fish.

But if you use seachem prime it detoxifies them. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0043135400005212

copper

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0008622303001970

iron

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0008622302000763

etc.. you can find them everywhere

I can't post photos but if you look you can find photos of activated carbon, when it has reacted and you will see sodium and other ions surrounding the carbon molecules- however those don't come from the carbon, they came from the water.

Here is an air version of it, but I cannot post the picture. Here you can see how (which I DO use) activated carbon in my air purifiers to catch- guess what???? ions in the air!! https://air-purifier-reviewsite.com/blog/air-purifier-technologies-activated-carbon-air-filter/

we are not fish though and our bodies are greatly different due to different adaptations. We have to protect ourselves against external because if we allow stuff to easily cross we will get dry fast, so we have to take in ions a different way.

here are studies on humans how those elements are necessary for immune functioning. Unfortunately our fish focused studies are limited but immune functioning should apply similarly to fish. We are both mammals and have similar ions present in our environment. However not fluorine- we don't use that. EDIT we do, just very very little of it.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0098299705000464

https://www.nature.com/articles/nrmicro1046

https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.nutr.24.012003.132454?cookieSet=1

https://www.cabdirect.org/?target=/cabdirect/abstract/19672901975

https://europepmc.org/abstract/med/3533863

etc...


'While carbon is generally considered to be a chemical filter, that is not precisely true. It is in fact a mechanical filter as well, but it is only capable of mechanically filtering objects of molecular size. It functions through extremely small cracks and crevices, called macropores and micropores. Microporous carbons remove primarily metals and smaller ions (like trace minerals) and are best suited to air filtration, while macroporous carbons remove primarily larger organic molecules (like nitrogenous waste) and are best suited to water filtration." [for people!]

Macroporous still has a large impact on trace elements,but it is not as much. Microporous, which is what most activated carbon is, is made to adsorb ions! there however is more expensive macroporous ones- but these still contain much of the microporous. It is just harder and more expensive to make macro.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activated_carbon

SO- basically, something like seachem purigen is better because it does not adsorb ions... It is not an ion exchanger. Activated carbon has too strong of an affinity for trace minerals and ions. Something else would be better. however,I really wish they posted the molecule and data on their assessment of it. Because they do not- you are safest to not use any.

 

The only one of those that included freshwater fish is the first one and it states parasites caused the HITH in those fish. The 2nd and 4th ones dealt with saltwater fish. And the last four deal with water treatment not aquarium use. There still is no proof that AC causes HITH.

 

Partially correct! Their was a recent study... What this study showed was carbon + hexamita. When they examined the fishes tissues what they discovered was there were not enough ions. They tried to figure out why, so they eventually found out that it was due to carbon. The reduction in ions lead to immune deficiencies which allowed hexamita to form hole in the head. So, if it can do that with hexamata, imagine what else it does to the fish. I will look for the study.

First is older... It is observational

https://www.int-res.com/abstracts/dao/v45/n3/p197-202/

I didn't see anything in this link stating that activated carbon causes HITH.

2001

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08997659.2011.608608?cookieSet=1?src=recsys

One paper linking HITH to activated carbon in marine fish. This AC was made from coconut shells. Not sure if the AC made for aquariums is from coconut shells (I found a few sources saying that aquarium AC is made from coal) or if it makes a difference.

newer research (second is experimental, they induced the hole in the head) I will send more hold up

This link is saying that HITH is associated with a low GH. It does not state that activated carbon causes a low GH or HITH.

This isn't a super scientific source, but he's saying that activated carbon does NOT reduce GH:




Did you just read the abstract of this study or the entire paper? I have access to the entire paper and they're saying HITH is associated with the use of borehole water. Their results do not implicate activated carbon. They're also talking about marine fish, not freshwater fish.

Here is how it adsorbs ions such as zinc and fluorine (which are required by fish) - but of course harmful ions too. Also, other ions required by fish.

How do you know if removes all of it or enough to harm the fish? And I think this study is talking about it removing Perfluorooctan sulfonate, not zince and fluorine.

But if you use seachem prime it detoxifies them. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0043135400005212

This is talking about "commercial H-type" AC. Can you show that that is what we use for aquariums?

copper

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0008622303001970

The activated carbon was modified in this study.

iron

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0008622302000763

This study uses a magnetic compound in addition with AC to take up compounds.

etc.. you can find them everywhere

I can't post photos but if you look you can find photos of activated carbon, when it has reacted and you will see sodium and other ions surrounding the carbon molecules- however those don't come from the carbon, they came from the water.

Here is an air version of it, but I cannot post the picture. Here you can see how (which I DO use) activated carbon in my air purifiers to catch- guess what???? ions in the air!! https://air-purifier-reviewsite.com/blog/air-purifier-technologies-activated-carbon-air-filter/

I'm not seeing much evidence for your argument with the linked studies.

Corrales et al. (2009) found in their study (Lateral line depigmentation (LLD) in channel catfish,Ictalurus punctatus (Rafinesque)) that HITH was caused by nutritional stress.

 

nutritional deficiencies- this weakens the immune system. What happens when they get less food? They get less ions and trace elements. This is in addition to the general reduction in food. This supports my argument. Fish do not only intake it from the diet, but also from the water, which is different than humans.

So, I am not saying it is the only cause of hole in the head necessarily, but rather anything that would lead to trace element deficiencies could cause that and deficits in trace elements would lead to immune problems.

Therefore, if you just subjected the fish to a reduction in trace elements to the degree that it is deleterious, then I am saying you would arrive at the same problem

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0044848696015037

you see they say it is not that important in diets, because fish take it from the environment mainly.

 

nutritional deficiencies- this weakens the immune system. What happens when they get less food? They get less ions and trace elements. This is in addition to the general reduction in food. This supports my argument. Fish do not only intake it from the diet, but also from the water, which is different than humans.

So, I am not saying it is the only cause of hole in the head necessarily, but rather anything that would lead to trace element deficiencies could cause that and deficits in trace elements would lead to immune problems.

Therefore, if you just subjected the fish to a reduction in trace elements to the degree that it is deleterious, then I am saying you would arrive at the same problem

I don't think it works quite like that. Nowhere in that paper do they mention activated carbon. If you read the entire paper, you'll see that they starved the fish for 12 months. It had nothing to do with chemical filtration.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any support for your claim that activated carbon causes HITH in freshwater fish in the links you have provided.

 

Yes, they starved the fish. But, what is gained in eating? There is glucose, proteins, and trace elements. I am saying that one of the thing which happens when they eat less is the reduction in trace elements. Trace elements are a part of their nutrition. They cannot get it solely from either diet or the environment, their bodies aren't made that way. So, I was just saying that they did not describe which reduction in molecule lead to the problem. But the hole in the head studies, along with the general idea of what carbon does, and the human studies, would support trace elements.



Did you just read the abstract of this study or the entire paper? I have access to the entire paper and they're saying HITH is associated with the use of borehole water. Their results do not implicate activated carbon. They're also talking about marine fish, not freshwater fish.
​poor water quality- would include also insufficient or too many trace elements... and either could be the case here. If it is overrun with bacteria (e.g nitrogenous wastes), it is probably insufficient. Fish, bacteria, and plants, all compete for the trace elements in the water.

You can find many articles on the ion adsorption properties of activated carbon, I am sorry I haphazardly selected them. There are thousands... We do try to improve it to be able to adsorb it better, in air applications and things this is more appropriate (or for human consumption).

Also texas you just got points as my definite friend for having access to that. I love fellow geeks

 

I think you're making a lot of leaps here that are not supported by the science. Poor diet and poor water quality do not equate to or produce the same results as using activated carbon in a filter. You can't say that the HITH caused by starving the fish for 12 months is due to a lack of trace elements, and is the same as using AC in a filter. You can't make that leap in a sound, scientific way. So I don't see any support for your claim.

I'm a graduate student at a big university, so I have full access to most every article

 

Well, I am also a graduate student. That is very cool... There is much research which shows that carbon filtration affects trace elements, you can find that. Trace elements are required by fish. This result would be bad, no matter how you are assessing it.

There is also some evidence that at least carbon filtration contributes to HITH.

However, this is a theory in some respects, but I feel like the research supports it. I was developing the mechanism, based upon how carbon works.

More research is needed, but you cannot make the claim that hith cannot be caused by carbon, with contrary evidence. Unless you feel the study was invalid for X reasons. This is out of my area of research to test it, but it is very interesting.

I am actually writing a paper right now. This is my introduction... My research is far different than yours, but I was pre-med, so I love biology too.
"In 1976, Luria defined the three functional units of the brain and noted that they worked together in a system; these three units were Unit 1, 2, and 3 (Luria, 1976). While Luria (1976) described other unit interactions, this article focuses on how Unit 3 affects Unit 1. In particular, it will examine how the cortical regions in Unit 3 affect the subcortical brainstem regions in Unit 1. This paper proposes working models explaining that when Unit 3 abnormally affects Unit 1, it may lead to major depressive disorder. In particular, this paper proposes theories, that those with major depressive disorder have areas within Unit 3, that are hyper-activated and those that are hypo-activated; those types of activation patterns alter Unit 1, to which it is functionally connected."

 

I don't think the literature you provided supports your statement. I'm not saying that it's for sure not a factor, but without proof, I don't have to believe that it is. We can agree to disagree