I found out how Prime works. It’s on the back label.

You mean medicine based on science?

A pharmaceutical company seeking FDA approval to sell a new prescription drug must complete a five-step process: discovery/concept, preclinical research, clinical research, FDA review and FDA post-market safety monitoring. - FDA Approval - Process of Approving Drugs & Medical Devices

I am on the side of science. In my opinion, your burden of proof is much more aligned with the world of naturopaths and antI vaxxers.

You shouldn't need to compare me to antivaxxers, that's unnecessary.

I'm saying that I've actually used their product and it works. Go out and get lab equipment to test it if you really think that the product is a scam, one $12 bottle has lasted me 3 years so I don't feel very ripped off. You keep talking about the scientific method yet in response to me saying that I've used it repeatedly and it works as advertised, you just keep talking about how seachem has no evidence, but it's empirically worked well for me, so at this point for ME the burden of proof falls on to the person arguing with my experience of the product. No, I've never actually tested it with equipment, but I've never had fish stressed from ammonia during a fish-in cycle to where they get sick while using prime, there may be no causal relationship, but regardless of these things It's one of the most affordable conditioners due to how concentrated it is so I'm going to keep using it.

Remember, this thread was started by someone who said they figured out that there's actually nothing other than normal chlorine conditioner in prime by reading the back of the bottle. I don't think that's true.

 

Cichlidude contacted Seachem and they stated that they are unable to provide any information that would support any of their claims. Now you can go ahead and say that information is a "trade secret" and "highly classified", but that information would not require them to disclose any chemical formulations. But hey, i'm sure you can find another justification as to why they wouldn't provide any data.

I really don't care to if I can perform the test for myself and see as the two of you refuse to do. At that point it's pointless to contact them asking for proof when I can provide it or lack there of for myself. I'll ask the same of you, perform it and see. Or maybe it's easier to understand if it ask "Have you refined or eliminated the hypothesis that Seachem does or does not do what it claims based on your experimental findings?"

Again, I don't hate Seachem. I use Prime as my water conditioner, I have a Tidal 110, and I use Purigen(I really don't think it does anything though).

Err.. What? If it's a bottled lie why do you even have it? That's pretty funny to me based on how you seem to be doubting them.

 

That's purely conjecture. You can't make any definitive statement about how much people trust Seachem. Some people do trust them and some people don't. You have no idea whether or not the company would be more or less successful based upon publishing their results.

I tend to believe they would sell significantly more product if they proved their claims. I would be buying every Seachem product if they all performed as claimed.

Again, I don't hate Seachem. I use Prime as my water conditioner, I have a Tidal 110, and I use Purigen(I really don't think it does anything though).

It's not hard to see people trust them, they're one of the top selling brands in the fish industry. It's common sense really. Who buys a brand they believe to be liars? If they were proved liars I wouldnt trust them anymore. I don't even use prime, but use seachem products like their fertilizers. Those work great for me.

I'm just looking from a business perspective. If they didnt have a huge amount of their customers demanding to see evidence it would be stupid just to randomly pay a bunch of scientists to post their research. No one in their right mind is throwing money out like that unless its affecting their bank roll. That's why it would be good if people have these tests to expose them. I'm all for a good call out, I don't want to support a brand that lies.

 

You shouldn't need to compare me to antivaxxers, that's unnecessary.

You are right, that was a cheap shot and I apologize.

 

I sent a link to seachem of this very thread looking for support, and got a very very long response. Addressing several of the posts in this thread.

So....not only did I not get a copy and paste response....but they even took the time to read this thread and comment on individual posts.

Am I allowed to post their response? Or do I need permission from them to do it?

 

I sent a link to seachem of this very thread looking for support, and got a very very long response. Addressing several of the posts in this thread.

So....not only did I not get a copy and paste response....but they even took the time to read this thread and comment on individual posts.

Am I allowed to post their response? Or do I need permission from them to do it?

As long as you haven’t made any sort of binding agreement you are fine to post it.

But I am very interested to see their reponse!

 

I sent a link to seachem of this very thread looking for support, and got a very very long response. Addressing several of the posts in this thread.

So....not only did I not get a copy and paste response....but they even took the time to read this thread and comment on individual posts.

Am I allowed to post their response? Or do I need permission from them to do it?

Omg that's awesome. I hope you post it.

 

Omg that's awesome. I hope you post it.

I agree. I would like to see what they had to say.

 

I'd like to see this as well.

 

I would like to as well! I'm curious to see how it compares to the email previously linked by the OP and the response they sent them.

 

Hopefully a mod will stop by and let us know for sure but I would think as long as you got permission from the seachem representative to share their response to your questions it would be alright to share it with us.

 

I sent a link to seachem of this very thread looking for support, and got a very very long response. Addressing several of the posts in this thread.

So....not only did I not get a copy and paste response....but they even took the time to read this thread and comment on individual posts.

Am I allowed to post their response? Or do I need permission from them to do it?

Yes I would let them know you are posting their response first, or ask if it is ok to do so.
Thanks

 

Yes I would let them know you are posting their response first, or ask if it is ok to do so.
Thanks

I have been given their permission to share it. So I will go ahead and do so.

 

Here is the reply I received. When you get further down....the quoted parts are taken right out of this very thread. So the person sending the reply took it pretty seriously if they took the time to read the thread.


Seachem Support 10256 (Seachem Laboratories)
Jan 20, 14:52 AST

HI there Elizabeth!
Thank you for your email and for bringing this post to our attention. This will be a bit of a long response, as we've found that forum posts tend to spark lasting controversy and we try to set the record straight as much as we can wherever we can.
We have a couple of means by which we have proven that Prime detoxifies ammonia. We unfortunately do not have any scholarly articles published regarding our product development procedures, but any test kit or procedure which is capable of distinguishing between NH3 (ammonia) and other ammonia-like molecules (iminium salt, amine-bound molecules, etc) will verify that you can have a beaker which contains ammonia (NH3), add a dose of Prime, and the ammonia is converted into something that is not ammonia (in this case, an iminium salt). We have carried out this testing in our own lab, and it has been verified in stores, public aquariums, and research facilities around the world. Prime is one of the leading water conditioners on the market and has been for 30 years - please rest assured that it has been thoroughly verified.
There has been some confusion over the years as to what Prime does exactly. Essentially, Prime takes ammonia (NH3) and converts it into an iminium salt. In this sense, it has removed the ammonia. The ammonia is no longer there. It has been turned into something that is not ammonia. Thus, when we first developed the product, we reported that it does precisely what it does, it "removes ammonia". Unfortunately, over time we found that the truth was confusing to our customers due to the proliferation of "ammonia test kits" that do not actually test for ammonia - they test for "all ammonia and ammonia-like molecules". Since these test kits are picking up on all kinds of things that are not ammonia, a lot of our customers became confused and would call us, angrily insisting that Prime doesn't do what it says on the label. As a result of this, we adjusted our wording to say that Prime "detoxifies" ammonia - it takes ammonia and converts it into a molecule which is like ammonia (it can be consumed by bacteria colonies, it shows up on test kits, etc.) but is not toxic to fish.
This is what is meant by "detoxifies ammonia". We are not trying to reference bogus health food claims about the detoxification effect of tea or berries - we are talking about literally taking a toxic substance and chemically altering it to make it nontoxic.
Let me take a look through the original post and see where the misunderstanding may lie:

Here is what the original poster has written:
"This is how Prime works (and all de-chlorinators):
Has anyone read the entire label on the back of a bottle of Prime? I did, finally.
Reading the back label, Prime works by performing water changes and using your aquariums bio filter to remove ammonia, nitrite and nitrates."
----------Seachem----------: It is true that once ammonia has been altered into a form which is nontoxic to fish (the "detoxifies ammonia" that we mention on the label), it is up to the bacteria colonies to consume that detoxified ammonia and convert it into nitrite and then nitrate, and it is true that if your nitrate levels are at concentrations that are toxic to standard community fish, the best solution is to carry out water changes rather than try to continually dose a nitrate detoxifier (since most freshwater fish do not experience stress from nitrate in their aquarium until the level has built up to well above 40 mg/L). Prime detoxifies ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate so that they don't hurt your fish, but it is then up to the fish keeper or the biological filtration to remove those chemicals from the tank.


"Seachem Prime on the front label says the following:
Concentrated Conditioner for Marine and Freshwater. Removes Chlorine and Chloramine.
Detoxifies Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate.
However, did anyone read how it does this? It’s right on the back label."
----------Seachem----------: We certainly hope that any fish keeper that uses our products reads the label.


"First the directions: Easy, just change and add your water and add the amount of Prime it says.
For exceptionally high Chloramine concentrations a double dose may be used safely. To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used. If temperature is > 86F and chlorine or ammonia levels are low, use a half dose.
Note the detoxify word above."
----------Seachem----------: As noted above, we use "detoxify" because we found that this is the least confusing term for customers that may be using a test kit which picks up on both true ammonia (NH3) and also ammonia-like molecules.


"Now let’s read the left side of the label.
Prime is a complete and concentrated conditioner for both fresh and salt water. Prime removes chlorine, chloramine and detoxifies ammonia. Prime converts ammonia into safe, non toxic form that is removed by the tanks’s biofilter. Prime may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime detoxifies nitrite and nitrate allowing the bio filter to more efficiently remove them. It will also detoxify heavy metals found in tap water at typical concentration levels. Prime is non-acidic and will not overactive skimmers. Use at start up and whenever adding or replacing water.
So all the above is true as long as you follow the directions whenever adding or replacing water. But when you add or replace water, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are all REMOVED with the percentage of water changed. Assuming you perform a 50% water change, your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate would be removed by 50%. Of course heavy metals would be removed too with a water change. This would be normal for all water changes."
----------Seachem----------: It is true that water changes do dilute ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, as well as heavy metals (assuming that the source water is lower in metals than the tank water, which is not always true). That is not what the directions are referencing. Prime does not have to be used with a water change (although that is its primary application), and will detoxify ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate as well as heavy metals even if it is dosed alone, without a water change.


"Detoxifying is done in the tanks biofilter. Yes, that is where your aerobic bacteria is used to perform oxidation to remove ammonia and then it naturally converts it to nitrite and then to nitrate. This would be normal for all filters with good media."
----------Seachem----------: If we go by our established definition of "detoxify", then yes - the beneficial bacteria colonies in the filter "detoxify" ammonia by converting it into a chemical that is not ammonia (in this case, nitrite, followed by nitrate). Again, this is not what the directions for Prime are referring to - we are referring to a direct chemical interaction between Prime and the ammonia which converts it into an iminium salt. A similar reaction occurs with nitrite, nitrate, and heavy metals.


"The presence of nitrite in an aquarium generally indicates an aquarium which is cycling. If you have high chlorine/chloramines this could kill your filter bacteria, so of course you would want to dose up to 5X the amount of Prime. You want to stop this fast in a cycling aquarium. You can add up to 5X the amount in the presence of high nitrites only. This would be normal for all aquarium filters with good media."
----------Seachem----------: I'm... not certain what this is implying? Yes, nitrite is present in aquariums that are cycling. Yes, chlorine and chloramine will kill bacteria colonies. No, the reason for the 5x dose is not to remove higher levels of chlorine and chloramine - it is to detoxify higher levels of ammonia or nitrite. The standard dose of Prime already removes the federal maximum (in the USA) for chlorine and chloramine - under ordinary circumstances there is no need to use more than the standard dose of Prime for this purpose when preparing water for the aquarium. What we are attempting to communicate in the instructions could be more succinctly summed up as "you can use more Prime if you have higher levels of ammonia or nitrite, but don't exceed 5x the recommended amount for the full volume of the tank."


"Your tanks biofilter is doing all the work to remove (detoxify) ammonia. Prime never says anything about protecting any fish in the aquarium at any time. But performing a water change protects the fish because the ammonia, nitrite or nitrates are removed! Wow, imagine that."
----------Seachem----------: Yes, ideally your filter will remove ammonia and nitrite before it will harm your fish. however, this process takes time. If your tap water contains 1 ppm of ammonia, this ammonia can still harm your fish before the filter has time to remove it, which is why we originally included the ammonia detoxifier in Prime. I'm not certain why we did not include the specific term "protects fish" in the label - likely because we usually try to avoid terms that can be taken out of context to imply something that was not intended.


“Use at start up and whenever adding or replacing water. Never by itself.”
----------Seachem----------: You can use Prime every 48 hours as long as ammonia or nitrite persist, with or without a water change. The instructions on the bottle are for “typical application” of the product. Regardless of the “handy side benefits” of Prime, the product’s primary purpose is to make tap water safe to use in the aquarium.


“There is nothing magic about Prime. Go ahead and replace the word Prime above with ‘any de-chlorinator’ and the exact same processes are done.”
----------Seachem----------: It is true that Prime is not based in magic - it is based in chemistry. It is not true that every water conditioner or dechlorinator detoxifies ammonia or nitrite. In fact, many of them don’t.


“So does Prime detoxify ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? Yes it does and so do all water conditioners on the market by simple water changes and the media in your filter.”
----------Seachem----------: Again, we actually include a separate compound in Prime that is the ammonia detoxifier. There is both a dechlorinator and an ammonia detoxifier in the product. No, not every product contains the added ammonia detoxifier. Water changes dilute waste, bacteria colonies consume waste, and Prime chemically detoxifies waste.


“All de-chlorinators do the same thing regardless of price.”
----------Seachem----------: While it is true that almost all dechlorinators work by utilizing some kind of reducing agent to convert chlorine and chloramine into nontoxic chloride ions, they vary by the strength and concentration of reducing agent used as well as the additional compounds used in the product. In the case of Prime, we use an exceptionally strong and reactive reducing agent as well as the ammonia and nitrite detoxifier, which is how Prime has retained the position it has in the market.
Thank you very much, and have a great day!
Seachem Support
10256

 

Thank you for contacting them and sharing this with all of us. Hopefully it will put this to rest and we can all continue to confidently recommend Prime when it is needed.

As I have often said, if a tank is fully cycled any of the many water conditioners will work just fine but if one sees ammonia I will continue recommending Prime to detox it until there is enough bacteria to process it out. Although I have no ammonia or nitrite readings in any of my tanks I continue using it because it takes so little of it to get the job done. In my humble opinion "less is best" in all things except water changes.

 

Bizaliz3 - Thank you for taking time to reach out to Seachem and posting their response. They provided a very detailed description on what the product directions mean and about what/how the product performs. They have clearly defined what they mean by "detoxify" and what it does to ammonia, nitrites and nitrates.

Unfortunately I don't see this settling the debate. There are those who will not be satisfied without seeing documented evidence of testing that validates the products claims. Without that, the horse will continue to be beaten and we will be chasing the dog's tail in a circle. I will say, this has been very enlightening and entertaining to say the least.

Again - Thank you for your contribution.

 

Bizaliz3 - Thank you for taking time to reach out to Seachem and posting their response. They provided a very detailed description on what the product directions mean and about what/how the product performs. They have clearly defined what they mean by "detoxify" and what it does to ammonia, nitrites and nitrates.

Unfortunately I don't see this settling the debate. There are those who will not be satisfied without seeing documented evidence of testing that validates the products claims. Without that, the horse will continue to be beaten and we will be chasing the dog's tail in a circle. I will say, this has been very enlightening and entertaining to say the least.

Again - Thank you for your contribution.

I agree 100%. This won't make any difference in the minds of those who are that passionate about their opinion on the matter. There is still no proof being provided. So…..

However, this is not the first thread bashing seachem prime recently. And my issue with this particular thread wasn’t so much about if Seachem’s claims are true or not. But rather, the fact that the label itself was being completely misinterpreted and misrepresented.

I am done with this debate. It’s a waste of time at this point. But I thought others may enjoy reading the response I received.

 

Uh oh

 

The only thing new is a clear claim that a 2nd ingredient is added to bind ammonia.

And more talk about iminium/imidium. Why do so many people still believe Prime converts ammonia to ammonium? Not even Seachem is claiming this.

No actual evidence, just reassurances.

As I've said before, only (further) experimentation will settle this.

I'm going to start saving pasta sauce jars in anticipation of my new life as a Daphnia farmer.

 

Great marketing info. Very prepared I agree. Just have to ask Seachem, which they could never answer, this one question.

Ammonia can only be removed by oxidation to nitrite and then nitrate period. Since Prime and others are just a reducer (as stated above) they cannot remove (reduce) ammonia at all. It is impossible to be a reducer and an oxidizer at the same time, they are be definition mutually exclusive. Chemistry 101.

Again, on the bottle is states: Contains complexed hydrosulfite salts, which is just sodium dithionite or the many derivatives thereof.

Seachem could not answer that question. Again, no scientific proof that they should have this proof all to see for over 10 years.

If you have ammonia in your tank, your fish are breathing it, period.

Have a good day all.

 

I think this thread has run it’s course, there’s plenty of opinions from every side & the manufacturer has also responded with more information so members can make up their own minds, there needs to be no further discussions necessary on this topic.
Thread closed

 

I just wanted to add that I think it was very good of SeaChem to take the time to write such a detailed response.