Hybrids, What's Your Opinion?

KaderTheAnt
  • #1
Disclaimer! I am not trying to start any arguments in anyway, I'm just generally curious on how accepted that are by this community.

I've come across large groups that hate them and I've come across large groups that accept them.

In my opinion, it's fifty-fifty. If you're creating a hybrid for yourself as an experiment, then it's okay. I can't judge you for doing things for yourself with your own animals/things in general. There are only two times hybridization is a negative for me and that's A. a very rare fish and try to hybridized it with something else when you should be trying to bring back the species and B. when hybrids are marketed as one of their counterparts (anyone who's ever wanted real endlers knows EXACTLY what I'm talking about)

And I'm not only talking about fish hybrids , I'm talking about all of the hybrids in the world.

I understand their are hybrids for actual purposes, like the cow x whatever hybrid which is designed to give more meat and survive better in colder climates, I also understand that their are some hybrids that were created because people got bored and wanted to see what happened when you combined animal a with animal b.
 
WTFish?
  • #2
I think that when they choose to breed on their own in the wild for their own survival then it's ok Like coyote/wolf hybrids, mean sketchy suckers but without human intervention then it's nature...I'm also ok with breeding to keep an endangered species alive and thriving since we are what killed them off in the first place.
The funny part to me is, it seems ok for people to accept if it's been around for hundreds or thousands of years, but not in recent times. People get all bent out of shape about balloon mollies yet keep
labra-peke-poo-snauzer-doodles so yeah, interesting topic for sure!
 
KaderTheAnt
  • Thread Starter
  • #3
Another thing that bothers me with certain hybrids is when the animal comes out dtisconfigured. Like those adorable Blood Parrots, yes they're adorable , but the poor things can't even close their mouths! And the fact that this hasn't stopped people from breeding them is down right horrible.
 
JamieXPXP
  • #4
I don't mind hybrids just as long as it doesn't affect their health or if they are mixing completely different species of fish or anything like that
 
NavigatorBlack
  • #5
The funny part to me is, it seems ok for people to accept if it's been around for hundreds or thousands of years, but not in recent times. People get all bent out of shape about balloon mollies yet keep
labra-peke-poo-snauzer-doodles so yeah, interesting topic for sure!

A lot of us don't quite understand what hybridization is. The example above is a case in point. Labs, Pekinese, and all other domestic dogs are Canis familiaris. The various labels are breeds, not species. If I cross my retriever with a collie, that is not a hybrid, it's a mutt of human created breeds. I love mutts. But all domestic dogs are one species. Other than rare wolf and dog crosses, they are not hybrids at any level.
But the Mexican mollies Poecilia mexicana and Poecilia sphenops are species, with their own ranges, fascinating natural histories and enough genetic differences that they are distinct. Their history as species tells a story, if you care to read it. If you don't have any interest in learning about the differences, the habitats that created them etc, you can call them mollies and be done with it. I think you lose something every time you miss a chance to learn more.
We can learn a lot with fish.
Balloon mollies are an intentionally linebred genetic disease, which also makes a nasty example. That isn't hybridization. That's cruelty linebreeding for a deformity.
Crossing Betta breeds for tail type, or guppy breeds is still breeding within the species. Your yellow and red guppies are both guppies.
There is also a price to real hybridization we don't think about. Many similar species can be crossed, and some of the young will be viable for a generation, or 2, or even 3. Then it ends. This was a killer for the killifish hobby, as hybrids resulted in the losses (within the hobby) of a number of very nice species we could still be learning from if breeders hadn't decided to play a risky game, and 'improve' them. .
If you hybridize a fish I am trying to breed for many generations, and I use the hybrid in my breeding set up, you just ended my project. As a breeder, I am really against hybridization of species. If you are into playing the game, please label the results clearly and openly.
Hybrids kept as ornaments and not used for breeding? I hope they have long lives and that you enjoy them.
 
Bruxes and Bubbles
  • #6
Mixed feelings on it. If you're going to be straight up and honest if you sell, I see no issue hybridizing things like platys and swordtails - things that have been in the hobby/domesticated for so long that it will make no difference.

Now, hybridizing a wild endangered fish that does not breed prolifically that needs conservation efforts - that is iffy to me.
 
grantm91
  • #7
I'm all for it, I'm waiting for them to bring out a Simpsons fish with 3 eyes. Edit. I can't comment seriously as I don't know enough, I own blood parrots and I love them, I've seen some disaster parrots in the shops though, really un-healthy. Also breeding genetic defects is just a joke- ie balloon types, also look at all the colours and shapes out there any way which nature has given. Again on the other hand what's wrong with selective breeding for colour morphs that's hybrid as well ?
 
WTFish?
  • #8
A lot of us don't quite understand what hybridization is. The example above is a case in point. Labs, Pekinese, and all other domestic dogs are Canis familiaris. The various labels are breeds, not species. If I cross my retriever with a collie, that is not a hybrid, it's a mutt of human created breeds. I love mutts. But all domestic dogs are one species. Other than rare wolf and dog crosses, they are not hybrids at any level.
But the Mexican mollies Poecilia mexicana and Poecilia sphenops are species, with their own ranges, fascinating natural histories and enough genetic differences that they are distinct. Their history as species tells a story, if you care to read it. If you don't have any interest in learning about the differences, the habitats that created them etc, you can call them mollies and be done with it. I think you lose something every time you miss a chance to learn more.
We can learn a lot with fish.
Balloon mollies are an intentionally linebred genetic disease, which also makes a nasty example. That isn't hybridization. That's cruelty linebreeding for a deformity.
Crossing Betta breeds for tail type, or guppy breeds is still breeding within the species. Your yellow and red guppies are both guppies.
There is also a price to real hybridization we don't think about. Many similar species can be crossed, and some of the young will be viable for a generation, or 2, or even 3. Then it ends. This was a killer for the killifish hobby, as hybrids resulted in the losses (within the hobby) of a number of very nice species we could still be learning from if breeders hadn't decided to play a risky game, and 'improve' them. .
If you hybridize a fish I am trying to breed for many generations, and I use the hybrid in my breeding set up, you just ended my project. As a breeder, I am really against hybridization of species. If you are into playing the game, please label the results clearly and openly.
Hybrids kept as ornaments and not used for breeding? I hope they have long lives and that you enjoy them.

Thank you for the clarification, very interesting read for sure. I do get it, clearly there is a difference. That being said "cross breeding" for our specific needs or cosmetic reasons can also cause health problems not just in hybrids. Pugs have eye issues, bull dogs get hip problems, many get cancer from inbreeding, just a few of thousands of examples of what happens when we breed what we want, I don't see how it's different with fish, whether it's cross breeding or hybridization.
 
Claire Bear
  • #9
I love my two blood Parrots-they are quite the characters!
 
NavigatorBlack
  • #10
Dog breeds have taken weird directions. When I look at a yorkie or a pug, and then at a Newfoundland dog - wow. It shows us how genetic manipulation inside a species can produce spectacular breeds.
But let's run a thought experiment. Suppose we found a schmog - a close relative of Canis familiaris. We can call it Canis whateveris - a different, closely related species. It looks just like a pug, only it has a neon stripe on its flank.
So we breed it with dogs. Maybe the dog schmog cross has to happen in a petrie dish and then by artificial insemination, like some of the laboratory bred farm fish. Maybe it happens naturally, when these schmogs, who have been living in Atlantis and never encountered dogs before, are put in a pen with their cousins.
Either way, we produce an interspecies hybrid called a schmogdog. They sell like crazy. Soon people who don't know what a species is release Schmogdogs into the schmog habitats in Atlantis, and wait - there are no more unhybridized schmogs within a few generations.
It's what happened to endlers' livebearer with guppies, so it isn't that abstract.
People discover that Schmogs can smell ammonia! When you need a water change they wag their tails three times. But dogs don't have that skill, and before API stocks tumble into nothing, we realize that we hybridized the skill out of schmogdogs, and it isn't coming back. The neon stripes begin to fade after a few generations, and we discover schmog genes are prone to cancer when combined with dog genes (it happened with platy and swordtail crosses).
Oops. After a horrible genetic cancer epidemic, we don't have schmogs or dogs, and have to make do with cats.
But there's a cat breeder in Nevada who has found a way to cross ligers with cats, and they sell like crazy...

Okay, crazy experiment. But every bad joke in there has happened already with fishbreeding.
 
vikingkirken
  • #11
Either way, we produce an interspecies hybrid called a schmogdog. They sell like crazy. Soon people who don't know what a species is release Schmogdogs into the schmog habitats in Atlantis, and wait - there are no more unhybridized schmogs within a few generations.
But couldn't this exact thing happen if people released dogs into those same habitats, if they are able to interbreed anyway? That's irresponsibility from a pet owner, not the fault of the hybrid producers.
 
NavigatorBlack
  • #12
But couldn't this exact thing happen if people released dogs into those same habitats, if they are able to interbreed anyway? That's irresponsibility from a pet owner, not the fault of the hybrid producers.
If they weren't petrie dish crosses, yup. I agree.
Human stupidity has caused a lot of extinctions. But at the very least, we probably shouldn't help the process. I doubt very much someone will ever take a southern Xiphophorus alvarezI sword all the way to northern Mexico to dump it in a X hellerI habitat. It has been a hobby cross through, as alvarezI has nice red striping.
 
WTFish?
  • #13
Dog breeds have taken weird directions. When I look at a yorkie or a pug, and then at a Newfoundland dog - wow. It shows us how genetic manipulation inside a species can produce spectacular breeds.
But let's run a thought experiment. Suppose we found a schmog - a close relative of Canis familiaris. We can call it Canis whateveris - a different, closely related species. It looks just like a pug, only it has a neon stripe on its flank.
So we breed it with dogs. Maybe the dog schmog cross has to happen in a petrie dish and then by artificial insemination, like some of the laboratory bred farm fish. Maybe it happens naturally, when these schmogs, who have been living in Atlantis and never encountered dogs before, are put in a pen with their cousins.
Either way, we produce an interspecies hybrid called a schmogdog. They sell like crazy. Soon people who don't know what a species is release Schmogdogs into the schmog habitats in Atlantis, and wait - there are no more unhybridized schmogs within a few generations.
It's what happened to endlers' livebearer with guppies, so it isn't that abstract.
People discover that Schmogs can smell ammonia! When you need a water change they wag their tails three times. But dogs don't have that skill, and before API stocks tumble into nothing, we realize that we hybridized the skill out of schmogdogs, and it isn't coming back. The neon stripes begin to fade after a few generations, and we discover schmog genes are prone to cancer when combined with dog genes (it happened with platy and swordtail crosses).
Oops. After a horrible genetic cancer epidemic, we don't have schmogs or dogs, and have to make do with cats.
But there's a cat breeder in Nevada who has found a way to cross ligers with cats, and they sell like crazy...

Okay, crazy experiment. But every bad joke in there has happened already with fishbreeding.

Thanks for the laugh. That was hilarious-but I see your point in there somewhere
 
WTFish?
  • #14
I really want to start a new thread advertising Schmogs for sale for people with ammonia issues.
 
vikingkirken
  • #15
If they weren't petrie dish crosses, yup. I agree.
Human stupidity has caused a lot of extinctions. But at the very least, we probably shouldn't help the process. I doubt very much someone will ever take a southern Xiphophorus alvarezI sword all the way to northern Mexico to dump it in a X hellerI habitat. It has been a hobby cross through, as alvarezI has nice red striping.
I can see your point there.

In that vein--one thing that does bother me--you look up "blue acara" nowadays, and the electric blue acara dominates the search results. I can't say very much... I HAVE an EBA, and I love her. But it disturbs me that it seems to be completely displacing the regular blue acara in the hobby. Kinda makes me wish I had gotten a wild-type one instead :-/
 
NavigatorBlack
  • #16
And what I like is we don't really know how the electric blue made it to market. I have no problem with Genetically Modified Organisms, if they stay in captivity. But electric blue rams, dempsies, gouramis and rams all arrived on the market at about the same time, not long after gene splicing became affordable.
Call me cynical, but I wonder about the 'breeder's art' there.
 
mollybabes
  • #17
I don't know that much about hybrids but inbred is annoying
 
Celestialgirl
  • #18
I have mixed feelings. I think the Blood Parrots are adorable... But after about them I feel bad for them. I am very disturbed by some of the balloon fish. On the other hand, I adore the electric blue fish.

I teach a Health Care Ethics course, which of course focuses on humans but some of the experimentation that goes on is truly scary. There are rules in place, but people do ignore them. I do think there should be stricter rules on animal gene splicing/ hybridization. Yet... I still like my electric blues and think Bettas beautiful.

It's complicated.
 
vikingkirken
  • #19
And what I like is we don't really know how the electric blue made it to market. I have no problem with Genetically Modified Organisms, if they stay in captivity. But electric blue rams, dempsies, gouramis and rams all arrived on the market at about the same time, not long after gene splicing became affordable.
Call me cynical, but I wonder about the 'breeder's art' there.
At least, electric blue fish are unlikely to displace the natural coloration in the wild, correct? That coloration would make them easy prey.
 
NavigatorBlack
  • #20
I think if we look at gene splicing or linebreeding, we have one issue.
If we look at hybridization, we have a completely different process and result.

Some brilliant aquarists I really respect have spent years linebreeding for effect. I knew some guppy people whose knowledge of genetics was astonishing, and I really respect that.
With no ethics, they could have created parrots with deformed mouths, or balloons with spine deformities. Instead, they worked on colour forms of guppies, and produced some cool fish to look at. A lot comes down to ethics, really.
My cousin made mutant zebra fish for cancer research, and while those and the mice he made were disturbing to me, he was trying to find his contribution to fighting cancer. I'm not judging that, though I am glad no one sells those fish.

I do have a hard time with fishlore people who hybridize with no plan, and no purpose, just because they think it would be cool. But most of them end up killing the fry anyway, so...
 
minervalong
  • #21
Thank you for the clarification, very interesting read for sure. I do get it, clearly there is a difference. That being said "cross breeding" for our specific needs or cosmetic reasons can also cause health problems not just in hybrids. Pugs have eye issues, bull dogs get hip problems, many get cancer from inbreeding, just a few of thousands of examples of what happens when we breed what we want, I don't see how it's different with fish, whether it's cross breeding or hybridization.

I was in the dog business for a number of years. The problem with the drawbacks of conformation ie, pugs not being able to breath, is that some group decided that the best look for a pug was a short muzzle. So, they continued to breed for a shorter muzzle until you have the issues you now have with pugs. I've remarked before on the fact that they are literally breeding the brains out of collies, going for a smaller, "more refined" skull. This reduces room for the brain. Watch Lassie and then look at the winner from the Garden this year.

The problem with breeding for a particular trait is that it might come with a co-ordinating negative trait. Pugs are so expensive because you will lose about 50% of the pups because they cannot breath well and most bitches require c-sections because they do not have enough oxygen during labor to successfully whelp.

Actually, crossbred dogs ie, labradoodles, have a stronger immune system and better health in the long run. And in general, the more "mutt" it is, the healthier it will be.

This cannot be said of hybridization of fish. Someone thought, "how cool, that molly looks like a balloon" and bam, deliberate breeding for a negative trait. Hybridizing for physical traits is not the same as crossbreeding for color. I sure wish I knew what they bred to make the solar flare swordtails. I just love them and they are hard to come by.
 
NavigatorBlack
  • #22
I'm guessing, but the solar flare looks like a pineapple or marigold mutation - I bred marigolds when I was a teenager.
Chances are there are contributions for Xiphoprus helleri, variatus, maculatus, and alvarezI in them, as that is the common base mix for pet shop swords.
Just to give an idea of what I mean when I say swordtail species, as opposed to breeds, here are two wild type species, an X nezahualcoyotl swordtail, and an X montezumae. Check the sword length on the montezumae.

nezgiveaway (640x426).jpg
monty2bbb.JPG
 
vikingkirken
  • #23
I'm guessing, but the solar flare looks like a pineapple or marigold mutation - I bred marigolds when I was a teenager.
Chances are there are contributions for Xiphoprus helleri, variatus, maculatus, and alvarezI in them, as that is the common base mix for pet shop swords.
Just to give an idea of what I mean when I say swordtail species, as opposed to breeds, here are two wild type species, an X nezahualcoyotl swordtail, and an X montezumae. Check the sword length on the montezumae.
View attachment 354562 View attachment 354563
Oh those montezumae... one of my dream fish!!
 
minervalong
  • #24
What a swordsman! lol But I like the other better, blue stripes.
I dunno what petco did to get this color, the thorax part of their body is white, tinting to peach. Seen in profile it looks like a water color and for some reason I just love it. Fuzz, my male, was a bit yellower when I got him, but he has grown into his peach. Am just waiting for Peaches to get knocked up, I already have a 10 gallon ready for her to drop them in.
 

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