How much do Angelfish pair sell for?

Jrhodes76

New Member
I don’t even know if I can ask this question in this group but I literally have no idea what a pair of angelfish goes for.

I bought 5 angels from my local fish store about 6 months ago and 1 online about 4 months ago. My goal was to keep 6 total but these 2 have paired up and are not so nice to the rest of them. They are basically taking over my entire 125 gallon tank (they ignore the other fish but are bullies to the angels). I have separated them and so far everyone is getting along a lot better with them gone.
As much as I hate to do it, I’m thinking about selling them as a pair. They are still young and are a nice looking couple but I have no interest in breeding angelfish and keeping them separated long term was not my intention.
They have spawned a few times but have always eatten the eggs so I dont know how they will be for breeding…granted they have always been in a community tank so that could be why they eat their eggs? I did see the male (the gold Angel is the male) fertilize them but they eat them within 48 hours after.

I haven’t sold any of my fish before, I wasn’t ever expecting to have to. I don’t know what quality these guys are but I’m hoping to sell them to someone who will want to breed them or maybe even to someone who has a large community aquarium and just wants to keep these 2 angels with some other fish. I have attached a photo.
What should I ask for them? A range would be good even.
This is not a post to try to sell them now…I don’t know anything about shipping fish so I will probably try to sell them for local pickup.
Honestly I hate to even get rid of them, they are the best looking angels in my tank in my opinion, and I’m kind of attached to them.
I just want advice from people who know more about angelfish so I don’t get taken advantage of (and risk someone separating them- they are literally inseparable) and also don’t try to sell for more than they are worth.
 

Attachments

  • 107B2BAB-4B34-48A1-BEEE-77CA8BF81A11.jpeg
    107B2BAB-4B34-48A1-BEEE-77CA8BF81A11.jpeg
    189.6 KB · Views: 21
  • 27EF6EB6-11A1-4291-919E-43285AEAFAB5.jpeg
    27EF6EB6-11A1-4291-919E-43285AEAFAB5.jpeg
    223.3 KB · Views: 21
  • C111D8D3-0C53-4095-8B13-EEDFBE8035FE.jpeg
    C111D8D3-0C53-4095-8B13-EEDFBE8035FE.jpeg
    219 KB · Views: 21

kansas

Well Known
From my limited experience and what I have read, it's not very hard to get them to breed so I wouldn't expect you could get much for them if you can sell them at all. Good luck.
 

Flyfisha

Fishlore VIP
At auction in Australia we have a few different names for pairs and that influences the expected reservation price asked. Two fish . A pair . A confirmed pair . And a breeding pair. Are just some of the names that come to mind. You have nothing more than two fish it’s possible you may have two females paired up.


At auction you always require two or more people to want the same bag of fish to push the price up.
It is the fashionable colours that get any interest . Only one of those fish has any of the ” kio” colours. As a none angel fish person he doesn’t look that great to my inexperienced eyes and she is worthless in my town.

I don’t doubt you saw the male fertilise the eggs but unless you saw wrigglers even that doesn’t make a successful pair as he could be infertile? They are a long way from being called a successful pairing pair.

As mentioned I don’t keep angels but believe have read other posts on this site a group of all males is a suitable non aggressive possibility for what you are after.
To that end selling any females separately would make sense.
While you continue to have females you will always have breeding behaviour.

Short answer.
I don’t live in the US .
Just getting rid of them ( females) at any price would be my suggestion.
What are juveniles worth in your town ? $5 ? Then if you can get double that for a fish that is ”old” fully grown take it.
Sorry I can’t give you the exact dollar figure.
 
OP
Jrhodes76

Jrhodes76

New Member
At auction in Australia we have a few different names for pairs and that influences the expected reservation price asked. Two fish . A pair . A confirmed pair . And a breeding pair. Are just some of the names that come to mind. You have nothing more than two fish it’s possible you may have two females paired up.


At auction you always require two or more people to want the same bag of fish to push the price up.
It is the fashionable colours that get any interest . Only one of those fish has any of the ” kio” colours. As a none angel fish person he doesn’t look that great to my inexperienced eyes and she is worthless in my town.

I don’t doubt you saw the male fertilise the eggs but unless you saw wrigglers even that doesn’t make a successful pair as he could be infertile? They are a long way from being called a successful pairing pair.

As mentioned I don’t keep angels but believe have read other posts on this site a group of all males is a suitable non aggressive possibility for what you are after.
To that end selling any females separately would make sense.
While you continue to have females you will always have breeding behaviour.

Short answer.
I don’t live in the US .
Just getting rid of them ( females) at any price would be my suggestion.
What are juveniles worth in your town ? $5 ? Then if you can get double that for a fish that is ”old” fully grown take it.
Sorry I can’t give you the exact dollar figure.
Thank you for your help! I appreciate the feedback
 

Itiwhetu

Active Member
Sometimes you find someone who wants the fish. I once had a breeding pair of Black Angels and I got $120 for the pair. They are nice fish, if I had a breeding room, I would consider them and most probably offer you $60 for the pair.
 

SparkyJones

Well Known
This pair isn't worth more than the individual fish cost for that size, but only if retail. If sold to a shop you get about 50% of wholesale or less.

A couple factors. Common angel pairs if proven to have viable spawns and good hatch rates can get decent money from a breeder, but like 2 gold or 2gold marbles, or 2 platinum, 2 koi, 2 double darks, 2 marbles, a mixed pair of a gold and a koi are less desirable, it would be muddying desirable traits sending them back to recessive.

So your pair is a mixed mutt pair (no offense) this will produce some very generic angels of low value. Also it hasn't actually succeeded at reproducing, so it's not proven, these two factors work against the pair being desirable to a breeder. An adult angel L -XL could get $20-$30 each retail, probably $5 or $10 in store credit maybe to a shop.
A quality proven pair can run the $100+ range.

What you can do. Return the male to the group and rehome the female. You might have to rehome the male if it's learned the aggressive and territorial breeding behaviors and won't let go of it after it's been separated but they normally calm down without the females hormones in the tank.
He will still be a dominant male though but he should be able to run the group with minimal fighting, the rest should fall in line behind him.

If you don't intend on breeding, avoid buying females by buing sexed mature fish and rehome females if you buy juveniles and a female matures from the group. It saves you this headache.
If you are looking for a quality pair to sell, start with a group of 6 same type angels of quality, and raise them until they pair, but then they'd still need to be proven, you'd need to successfully breed them and get a decent amount of the spawn to market size.

Breeders won't spend big money for generic angels or a gamble in the spawn, they can just buy juveniles and make their own pairs for a lot less. You might get a novice to overpay for them and gamble on it but a breeder or a shop will not.
 
OP
Jrhodes76

Jrhodes76

New Member
This pair isn't worth more than the individual fish cost for that size, but only if retail. If sold to a shop you get about 50% of wholesale or less.

A couple factors. Common angel pairs if proven to have viable spawns and good hatch rates can get decent money from a breeder, but like 2 gold or 2gold marbles, or 2 platinum, 2 koi, 2 double darks, 2 marbles, a mixed pair of a gold and a koi are less desirable, it would be muddying desirable traits sending them back to recessive.

So your pair is a mixed mutt pair (no offense) this will produce some very generic angels of low value. Also it hasn't actually succeeded at reproducing, so it's not proven, these two factors work against the pair being desirable to a breeder. An adult angel L -XL could get $20-$30 each retail, probably $5 or $10 in store credit maybe to a shop.
A quality proven pair can run the $100+ range.

What you can do. Return the male to the group and rehome the female. You might have to rehome the male if it's learned the aggressive and territorial breeding behaviors and won't let go of it after it's been separated but they normally calm down without the females hormones in the tank.
He will still be a dominant male though but he should be able to run the group with minimal fighting, the rest should fall in line behind him.

If you don't intend on breeding, avoid buying females by buing sexed mature fish and rehome females if you buy juveniles and a female matures from the group. It saves you this headache.
If you are looking for a quality pair to sell, start with a group of 6 same type angels of quality, and raise them until they pair, but then they'd still need to be proven, you'd need to successfully breed them and get a decent amount of the spawn to market size.

Breeders won't spend big money for generic angels or a gamble in the spawn, they can just buy juveniles and make their own pairs for a lot less. You might get a novice to overpay for them and gamble on it but a breeder or a shop will not.
Thank you for the information! I am not offended at all by the term mutt pair, lol. We intentionally have 6 angelfish that all look different. We are not breeding any of them. I figured if they do breed, oh well the babies will get eaten and I’ll let nature take its course but wow they are mean, lol. They are clearly not both the same type (but as someone who knows nothing about breeding, in my head they are the same colors so their offspring would probably look good, lol). There is so much complexity that goes into breeding the average person wouldn’t think of. I know they are just fish but I hate to separate them and break their hearts if they love each other. I’m not looking to make a ton of money, I just wanted a general idea of what they are worth as a pair so thank you so much. What you all have said makes perfect sense about the female thing. I have 6 total and one female…maybe 2, but the other is too young to tell yet I think but I’m leaning towards male. I also get what you are saying about someone inexperienced buying them and breeding them and not making much money because of the quality so then that person might separate them. Sounds like I may need to get over separating them. I may try adding the male back after a while and see how that goes and try to rehome the female if it goes well. Regardless, thank you again for the information.
Sometimes you find someone who wants the fish. I once had a breeding pair of Black Angels and I got $120 for the pair. They are nice fish, if I had a breeding room, I would consider them and most probably offer you $60 for the pair.
Thank you. This helps. It sounds like from the other responses most knowledgeable breeders only want a pair of the same type so I may have a hard time selling as a pair unless it’s someone who just wants 2 angels who get along and look nice together. But it still gives me an idea of what they should sell for so I appreciate it!
 

Linda1234

Well Known
A lot depends on the type of angels; you have a koi/gold pair and i suspect that is not in super high demand. You could probably still get a few $$ for them. koi are a specific genetic that people have toned to specific traits that are worth more $$. Btw if you feed them certain foods they will develop more orange/red as those are not pigments but rather due to carotenoids.

I personally would never pay much for a pair as i prefer to buy dime-size angels and make my own pairs.
 

SparkyJones

Well Known
Checking a couple genetics calculators with your fish types, the likely result is white gold marble ghost with those 2, 100% of the spawn. not koi, not gold.
All will be predominantly white to a gray/silver, with some mild yellow from nose to dorsal (crown), no stripes visible in the body, and random black swirl markings of a marble. but black not being predominant so low to near no black coverage.

my mutt pair is a gold marble and a platinum, the offspring were gold marbles, and basically golds with random black marks, also gold marbles, but not the black pattern you would expect to see, the platinum female of the pair is from Koi genetics. Had both male and female been gold marbles, 100% of the spawn would have looked like the father and mother, both with these patterns and predominant black.

Like your gold angel has the gold and white through the dorsal fin in a pretty pattern, my black gold marbles have that with black stripes through them, and the gold crown from mouth up... the non-black ones are pretty too, but they are just marked up golds really, but golds that go too far to orange. its like half the spawn are these less than desirable fish, and of the half that are black gold marbles, maybe 25% have the orange of a gold in the dorsal fin.
so my gold marbles look like the father below, about 25%, the others are missing the orange in the dorsal and very light crowns.

$R2FIY0D.jpg
No platinums at all. 50% are some variation of this: not golds, not platinums, not koi, kind of golds but not gold enough, marked up generic angels, that are pretty and healthy but not necessarily desirable colorations. black marks are completely random. I like them and keeping them, but they don't sell as well as the black marble, or the BM with the orange into the dorsal.

834862-4dc40f9743110bff216828212573402e.jpg

I will also say that, angels aren't "mean" or "bullies" or "in love", although good words for what you see. it's all just their natural behavior for breeding. the female has to take spawning territory and defend it, the males have to fight to prove to her whose the best choice to spawn with, then both fish need to defend the spawning territory from invaders. in a river, other fish can go away, in a tank there's nowhere to go, so they keep interacting.
Same goes with a pair, in the wild, the male or female might get eaten or die and disappear, the fish move on shortly after they are separated assuming the other will not return. A female will pick another suitable male to do the job, and a male will fight for another female and a shot at spawning with a new one if omne is around, otherwise males generally return to the pack of juveniles and unpaired adult males roaming for food and females ready to spawn. It's not love, they pair, and share the work because if they don't the spawn won't survive, and they pair because she has to trust he will do his job and not eat the eggs, and he will keep her straight also, and once mature it's ALL about spawning for a female and little else. They will eat the eggs if it's not going to work out, too much invaders around, off water quality, to many white ones and low fertilization rates ect. If the trust is broken and she rejects a male and he can't leave, she will absolutely kill him. He has to go if she breaks the pair and decides he's not good enough. Which is why my pair basically spars and clean and prepares to spawn, spawns, then spars and cleans. basically bumping each other to prove to each other they are strong and good partners for the task of spawning, She goes at him, he backs down, he goes at her, she backs down, sometimes neither back down at first until one submits, it can seem angry or mean, but it's them just showing fitness and strength to each other before the next batch of eggs comes. They never do actual damage to each other. they will damage other fish that aren't part of the pair though.

Best of luck to you! breeding is a lot of work, but it's a rewarding experience. I don't blame you for not wanting to deal with it. I didn't for a long time, but 8 months in now since raising a spawn, I'd do it again! :) I learned a lot, and hey it was the pandemic, what else was I gonna do with my free time :)
 
OP
Jrhodes76

Jrhodes76

New Member
Checking a couple genetics calculators with your fish types, the likely result is white gold marble ghost with those 2, 100% of the spawn. not koi, not gold.
All will be predominantly white to a gray/silver, with some mild yellow from nose to dorsal (crown), no stripes visible in the body, and random black swirl markings of a marble. but black not being predominant so low to near no black coverage.

my mutt pair is a gold marble and a platinum, the offspring were gold marbles, and basically golds with random black marks, also gold marbles, but not the black pattern you would expect to see, the platinum female of the pair is from Koi genetics. Had both male and female been gold marbles, 100% of the spawn would have looked like the father and mother, both with these patterns and predominant black.

Like your gold angel has the gold and white through the dorsal fin in a pretty pattern, my black gold marbles have that with black stripes through them, and the gold crown from mouth up... the non-black ones are pretty too, but they are just marked up golds really, but golds that go too far to orange. its like half the spawn are these less than desirable fish, and of the half that are black gold marbles, maybe 25% have the orange of a gold in the dorsal fin.
so my gold marbles look like the father below, about 25%, the others are missing the orange in the dorsal and very light crowns.
View attachment 861553
No platinums at all. 50% are some variation of this: not golds, not platinums, not koi, kind of golds but not gold enough, marked up generic angels, that are pretty and healthy but not necessarily desirable colorations. black marks are completely random. I like them and keeping them, but they don't sell as well as the black marble, or the BM with the orange into the dorsal.
View attachment 861556

I will also say that, angels aren't "mean" or "bullies" or "in love", although good words for what you see. it's all just their natural behavior for breeding. the female has to take spawning territory and defend it, the males have to fight to prove to her whose the best choice to spawn with, then both fish need to defend the spawning territory from invaders. in a river, other fish can go away, in a tank there's nowhere to go, so they keep interacting.
Same goes with a pair, in the wild, the male or female might get eaten or die and disappear, the fish move on shortly after they are separated assuming the other will not return. A female will pick another suitable male to do the job, and a male will fight for another female and a shot at spawning with a new one if omne is around, otherwise males generally return to the pack of juveniles and unpaired adult males roaming for food and females ready to spawn. It's not love, they pair, and share the work because if they don't the spawn won't survive, and they pair because she has to trust he will do his job and not eat the eggs, and he will keep her straight also, and once mature it's ALL about spawning for a female and little else. They will eat the eggs if it's not going to work out, too much invaders around, off water quality, to many white ones and low fertilization rates ect. If the trust is broken and she rejects a male and he can't leave, she will absolutely kill him. He has to go if she breaks the pair and decides he's not good enough. Which is why my pair basically spars and clean and prepares to spawn, spawns, then spars and cleans. basically bumping each other to prove to each other they are strong and good partners for the task of spawning, She goes at him, he backs down, he goes at her, she backs down, sometimes neither back down at first until one submits, it can seem angry or mean, but it's them just showing fitness and strength to each other before the next batch of eggs comes. They never do actual damage to each other. they will damage other fish that aren't part of the pair though.

Best of luck to you! breeding is a lot of work, but it's a rewarding experience. I don't blame you for not wanting to deal with it. I didn't for a long time, but 8 months in now since raising a spawn, I'd do it again! :) I learned a lot, and hey it was the pandemic, what else was I gonna do with my free time :)
Wow such great information! Thank you!! I am going to have to look up white gold marble ghost to see what their offspring would look like. It doesn’t sound too extravagant, lol. I have one that looks like your marble with the orange head. He got beat up the most. Both ventral fins are missing and both pectoral fins are badly beat up, one side is almost gone. He was swimming okay and didn’t seem bothered but I almost took him out to recover… then thought I’d try taking the pair out first just to see. Yep…much better. Everyone gets along now. And yes, the pair are definitely the alphas because they are beautiful, no signs of injury to them at all. They were my first 2. I got three others a week or 2 later and the last one a couple weeks after that. The pair have been in a separate tank since Saturday and the female has laid eggs already. The male didn’t fertilize them though, he seems a little more traumatized from the move than she is I guess. They are not eating the eggs this time either, they are starting to grow a fungus on them so I’m going to remove them from the plant leaf.

So basically if I keep the male (if he plays nice without her) and rehome the female, she will easily find another mate? It’s not mean to do to them? No hearts will be broken? I sound so pathetic

thank you again for all the info. You angelfish people are so smart! It’s all so confusing to me!
 

TClare

Well Known
So basically if I keep the male (if he plays nice without her) and rehome the female, she will easily find another mate? It’s not mean to do to them? No hearts will be broken
Correct.
 

SparkyJones

Well Known
So basically if I keep the male (if he plays nice without her) and rehome the female, she will easily find another mate? It’s not mean to do to them? No hearts will be broken? I sound so pathetic

thank you again for all the info. You angelfish people are so smart! It’s all so confusing to me!
Yes, exactly. Think of it from a wild perspective and natural behaviors. All the juveniles and unpaired male fish are in a group cruising the River for protection. As females mature they break off and establish a spawning territory. Males swing on by her territory hoping to pair. Acceptable males are allowed to stay around, unacceptable males are chased off, and the males try to show off by fiighting and chasing to be chosen by the female as the most suitable male, and then the rest are chased off by the pair. In an aquarium, there isn't room to leave and escape so this is why there needs to be a removal, of the pair, or the female, or the rejected fish. to save injuries or deaths. there's nowhere to go away in an aquarium.

Now females, once they mature, it's only about spawning and the spawning territory. roughly every 15 days after a spawn has ended, she's going to spawn again so every time eggs are laid and then they eat them or they fungus and are gone about 15 days later she will lay eggs again, if a spawn is successful, they will protect the fry for a couple weeks until they are bigger and get nippy, then they, or the fry need to be removed from them. in the river at that point, the adults would swim off and leave the fry up to themselves.

Just like in a river, fish die, they get eaten, they swim off to eat and can't return, whatever the cause, a male or a female will disappear. the female will re-pair with another male that is worthy quite quickly, and a male will either find another female or rejoin a group of juveniles and unpaired males for protection again and wait for females of that group to mature.
Sometimes a pair can spawn over and over and everything is fine, and then one day she rejects the male and tries to kill him if he can't leave. I don't know if he ate fry, or showed weakness as they were prepping to spawn again, or was just totally neglectful after fertilization, or can be failure to fertilize over and over, different times and different reasons, but females will pair, and if she finds out he's not suitable, she will reject him and chase him off, even if he's much bigger. She will kill him or die trying to kill him if he can't disappear from her spawning territory, and she will look for another suitable male to pair with.

I came home yesterday from work and one of my juvenile females had matured, 24 fish basically on the opposite side of the tank against the glass and her chasing anyone that got to close to her rock pile away, and she was allowing the 4 largest males (3 of them are 2+ year olds and unrelated, 1 is her brother who's just growing faster than the rest) to stay in her territory. I went to feed them, she went to eat and my zebra 2 year old stayed and didn't eat to defend the rock pile for her.
To me it's very clear that fish is a female long before she lays eggs doing this with a group of juveniles, and then a couple identified mature males to keep the peace, and the older males are going to be "chosen" as acceptable they are the largest and strongest. So I look for all these signs and it's kind of easy to identify when a female matures, it's my mature female detector so I don't get surprised with a complete warzone one day.
So I bagged her up and ran over to the LFS and just surrendered her to them they will sell her to someone and make some money, she's a decent size and identified female. The store that would give me store credit for them, they were already closed. Oh well.
But it calmed down the moment she was removed and everyone spread out again, but there is more aggression there in the tank, more sparring activity from the hormones from her with will go away in time.... I'm sure I have at least 5 and as many as 12 more females in there to mature and identify still

White Gold Marble Ghost, Same thing as a Silver Gold Marble Ghost really just white body instead of silver. they will get the stripeless allele from the Koi, and this gene usually tones down the gold from orange/yellow to a soft cream yellow for the crown area.
It loses the blushing of the Koi, but it SHOULD maintain the white color of the Koi to an off white grey, as opposed to that silver color of the marble. and usually not going to much more than 25% black coverage.
 
OP
Jrhodes76

Jrhodes76

New Member
Yes, exactly. Think of it from a wild perspective and natural behaviors. All the juveniles and unpaired male fish are in a group cruising the River for protection. As females mature they break off and establish a spawning territory. Males swing on by her territory hoping to pair. Acceptable males are allowed to stay around, unacceptable males are chased off, and the males try to show off by fiighting and chasing to be chosen by the female as the most suitable male, and then the rest are chased off by the pair. In an aquarium, there isn't room to leave and escape so this is why there needs to be a removal, of the pair, or the female, or the rejected fish. to save injuries or deaths. there's nowhere to go away in an aquarium.

Now females, once they mature, it's only about spawning and the spawning territory. roughly every 15 days after a spawn has ended, she's going to spawn again so every time eggs are laid and then they eat them or they fungus and are gone about 15 days later she will lay eggs again, if a spawn is successful, they will protect the fry for a couple weeks until they are bigger and get nippy, then they, or the fry need to be removed from them. in the river at that point, the adults would swim off and leave the fry up to themselves.

Just like in a river, fish die, they get eaten, they swim off to eat and can't return, whatever the cause, a male or a female will disappear. the female will re-pair with another male that is worthy quite quickly, and a male will either find another female or rejoin a group of juveniles and unpaired males for protection again and wait for females of that group to mature.
Sometimes a pair can spawn over and over and everything is fine, and then one day she rejects the male and tries to kill him if he can't leave. I don't know if he ate fry, or showed weakness as they were prepping to spawn again, or was just totally neglectful after fertilization, or can be failure to fertilize over and over, different times and different reasons, but females will pair, and if she finds out he's not suitable, she will reject him and chase him off, even if he's much bigger. She will kill him or die trying to kill him if he can't disappear from her spawning territory, and she will look for another suitable male to pair with.

I came home yesterday from work and one of my juvenile females had matured, 24 fish basically on the opposite side of the tank against the glass and her chasing anyone that got to close to her rock pile away, and she was allowing the 4 largest males (3 of them are 2+ year olds and unrelated, 1 is her brother who's just growing faster than the rest) to stay in her territory. I went to feed them, she went to eat and my zebra 2 year old stayed and didn't eat to defend the rock pile for her.
To me it's very clear that fish is a female long before she lays eggs doing this with a group of juveniles, and then a couple identified mature males to keep the peace, and the older males are going to be "chosen" as acceptable they are the largest and strongest. So I look for all these signs and it's kind of easy to identify when a female matures, it's my mature female detector so I don't get surprised with a complete warzone one day.
So I bagged her up and ran over to the LFS and just surrendered her to them they will sell her to someone and make some money, she's a decent size and identified female. The store that would give me store credit for them, they were already closed. Oh well.
But it calmed down the moment she was removed and everyone spread out again, but there is more aggression there in the tank, more sparring activity from the hormones from her with will go away in time.... I'm sure I have at least 5 and as many as 12 more females in there to mature and identify still

White Gold Marble Ghost, Same thing as a Silver Gold Marble Ghost really just white body instead of silver. they will get the stripeless allele from the Koi, and this gene usually tones down the gold from orange/yellow to a soft cream yellow for the crown area.
It loses the blushing of the Koi, but it SHOULD maintain the white color of the Koi to an off white grey, as opposed to that silver color of the marble. and usually not going to much more than 25% black coverage.
Wow so interesting. It definitely makes more sense now and makes me not as sad to rehome just her. Thank you! I looked up the white gold marble ghost and found a video on YouTube. It’s basically the 2 fish combines. Very pretty in my opinion. I’m going to put the male back in the 125 gallon tomorrow and see how it goes. I’d like to keep him if he plays nice.

One other question- how long until they show their gender traits like you were saying? I ordered my black angel in the middle of May from The Wet Spot and he was very small, quarter sized. He’s much bigger now but still a little smaller than the others. He’s starting to catch up though and they treat him like another male (and he really just minds his own business). After all this time and growth, do you think it’s safe to assume he IS male?
Wow so interesting. It definitely makes more sense now and makes me not as sad to rehome just her. Thank you! I looked up the white gold marble ghost and found a video on YouTube. It’s basically the 2 fish combines. Very pretty in my opinion. I’m going to put the male back in the 125 gallon tomorrow and see how it goes. I’d like to keep him if he plays nice.

One other question- how long until they show their gender traits like you were saying? I ordered my black angel in the middle of May from The Wet Spot and he was very small, quarter sized. He’s much bigger now but still a little smaller than the others. He’s starting to catch up though and they treat him like another male (and he really just minds his own business). After all this time and growth, do you think it’s safe to assume he IS male?
I feel like he is male, he’s about the same size now as my male koi but here’s some pics of him compared to the others which all seem male since they all wanted the female and now all get along without her.
 

Attachments

  • 720973F2-E1CB-4273-A445-22C7E5245F35.jpeg
    720973F2-E1CB-4273-A445-22C7E5245F35.jpeg
    219.8 KB · Views: 10
  • 66F75F83-518D-4B46-8D78-34E23B04958C.jpeg
    66F75F83-518D-4B46-8D78-34E23B04958C.jpeg
    260 KB · Views: 10

Linda1234

Well Known
angels can be difficult to sex 100% until they begin to breed. There are certain traits like female are generally smaller and males generally have large head humps but there are females that are larger than small males and males without the hump or females with a small hump so you never know fer sure till they start breeding. If you know the the traits of the parents it can be easier to identify their sex at quarter size but there will still be occasional errors.
 

SparkyJones

Well Known
"quarter sized" depends on if that meant quarter sized body not counting fins, or quarter sized with the fins.
they start maturing from 8 months to 12 months old. Most of them in the 8-10 month range but might be a late bloomer that surprises you. :)

In the hobby I've noticed tiny angels ( I'd call pea) being sold as dime sized or smalls as quarter size. so it depends on the definition of the size being used.

if the fish was quarter sized with fins, its about a 2 month old, around 8 weeks since an egg.
If it's quarter size body not counting fins, they approach that around 4 months old around 120 days since egg.
roughly estimating. if you got it in May, could be 2 months if the measure was with the fins, and could be 4 months if the measure was just the body.
either way you are coming up on either month 6 or Month 8 most likely. (there are runts that grow really slow, and there are fast growers) I had some that never really grew bigger than pea and took forever, and I have two that at 8 months are every bit the full size of the 2+ year olds and 3-4" bodies, pushing 6" diameter with the fins.

From my experience, behavior is all the same for juveniles. You can guess whether male or female, it might be wrong. Spawns are male heavy, which is why it's recommended to get 6 juveniles to all but guarantee at least one female is there.
Females trend smaller than males at mature sizes, I think due to the energy that will be spent on spawning, but also not an indicator with juveniles because of runts.

If he's "catching up" then the majority has finished the juvenile growth cycle and slowing down growth speed now and entered maturity or are mature. and he's still juvenile for a little while longer.

There's variations for gender and genetics and diet/environment. There no "sure thing" to it until you see.


I was just thinking, you have a 125g. Have you thought about a tank divider to separate the pair yet still keep all the fish together in one tank? they'd just need 20-30 gallons for themselves really in a tank of the 125s height maybe partition off 2 ft for the pair, and keep 4 feet for the others? could even keep 3 pairs in there with partitions like that and just need like 3-6 55gallon tanks for the spawns grow out tanks. HAHAHAHAHA! :) just kidding, but not kidding, dividers are a cheaper alternative to multitanks and multi work for cleaning of said additional tanks. Just drop a divider in and segregate fish in the tank if another female appears from your youngest one. if the first 5 were all at one time and that female is laying eggs, very likely the group of 3 that are left aren't females and mature also, so that just leaves mr. or mrs wetspot fish to figure out.
 
OP
Jrhodes76

Jrhodes76

New Member
"quarter sized" depends on if that meant quarter sized body not counting fins, or quarter sized with the fins.
they start maturing from 8 months to 12 months old. Most of them in the 8-10 month range but might be a late bloomer that surprises you. :)

In the hobby I've noticed tiny angels ( I'd call pea) being sold as dime sized or smalls as quarter size. so it depends on the definition of the size being used.

if the fish was quarter sized with fins, its about a 2 month old, around 8 weeks since an egg.
If it's quarter size body not counting fins, they approach that around 4 months old around 120 days since egg.
roughly estimating. if you got it in May, could be 2 months if the measure was with the fins, and could be 4 months if the measure was just the body.
either way you are coming up on either month 6 or Month 8 most likely. (there are runts that grow really slow, and there are fast growers) I had some that never really grew bigger than pea and took forever, and I have two that at 8 months are every bit the full size of the 2+ year olds and 3-4" bodies, pushing 6" diameter with the fins.

From my experience, behavior is all the same for juveniles. You can guess whether male or female, it might be wrong. Spawns are male heavy, which is why it's recommended to get 6 juveniles to all but guarantee at least one female is there.
Females trend smaller than males at mature sizes, I think due to the energy that will be spent on spawning, but also not an indicator with juveniles because of runts.

If he's "catching up" then the majority has finished the juvenile growth cycle and slowing down growth speed now and entered maturity or are mature. and he's still juvenile for a little while longer.

There's variations for gender and genetics and diet/environment. There no "sure thing" to it until you see.


I was just thinking, you have a 125g. Have you thought about a tank divider to separate the pair yet still keep all the fish together in one tank? they'd just need 20-30 gallons for themselves really in a tank of the 125s height maybe partition off 2 ft for the pair, and keep 4 feet for the others? could even keep 3 pairs in there with partitions like that and just need like 3-6 55gallon tanks for the spawns grow out tanks. HAHAHAHAHA! :) just kidding, but not kidding, dividers are a cheaper alternative to multitanks and multi work for cleaning of said additional tanks. Just drop a divider in and segregate fish in the tank if another female appears from your youngest one. if the first 5 were all at one time and that female is laying eggs, very likely the group of 3 that are left aren't females and mature also, so that just leaves mr. or mrs wetspot fish to figure out.
He was quarter sized without the fins so his body was quarter sized when I got him the middle of May so he’s approaching 9 months roughly. Thank you! The only “indicator” that he might be female is his forehead is very flat and goes straight down to his nose. It really doesn’t matter what he is I guess except I want them all to get along so I guess ideally the same gender would be good.

Do 2+ females get along together? Maybe if he ends up being a she I’ll keep both females together in a different tank. I specifically ordered him because I wanted an all black one and the local pet store didn’t have any so I’d really hate to get rid of him if he turns out to be a she. These are all good things to know that I had no clue about when buying angelfish, lol. I was talking to a discus breeder who said it’s highly unlikely that you will be able to buy 6 discus and not have to rehome/trade some of them. I guess now I know why. He didn’t come out and say that it’s because when they pair up they become **** to the rest of the group but I’m sure that’s what he meant, lol.

My goal is to have 6 angelfish, 6 discus, & 6 German blue rams, in my 125 aquarium along with my dither fish (cardinal tetras and lambchop rasboras) and 5 corydoras. Everything is in there now except the discus. I plan to buy them 2 inches and grow them out and then put them in there. I’m starting to think I should buy more than 6 in case some pair up I can sell some and keep all the same gender. What I do know is I don’t have enough room for all the tanks . I have 4 tanks set up now and was going to grow out 2 inch discus in my 36 gallon bowfront since it’s well established but 6 is already pushing it space wise once they get bigger so if I decided on 10 I’d have to get probably a 75 gallon grow out. But that’s also a lot of water for the every other day changes. Well that’s beside the point anyway (now I’m just thinking ahead, lol). What I’m getting at is I don’t want to divide my 125 if possible since I have another plan for it in the long run but I would be able to temporarily.
angels can be difficult to sex 100% until they begin to breed. There are certain traits like female are generally smaller and males generally have large head humps but there are females that are larger than small males and males without the hump or females with a small hump so you never know fer sure till they start breeding. If you know the the traits of the parents it can be easier to identify their sex at quarter size but there will still be occasional errors.
It sounds like it’s a big waiting game on if they will all be the same gender and get along or not. I think he’s approaching 9 months so I should know in the next couple months hopefully. His forehead is a straight slope to his nose so I’m a little worried he night be a she. I guess we will see ‍♀️.
 

Linda1234

Well Known
Do 2+ females get along together?
Two females will get along as long as there is no male - or more precisely as long as a pair m/f doesn't form. Once a pair forms the female will likely remove the competition brutally. Females might be smaller than males but they are the ones that are brutal (do real damage to competition). Males will threat and peck but rarely obliterate.
 
OP
Jrhodes76

Jrhodes76

New Member
Two females will get along as long as there is no male - or more precisely as long as a pair m/f doesn't form. Once a pair forms the female will likely remove the competition brutally. Females might be smaller than males but they are the ones that are brutal (do real damage to competition). Males will threat and peck but rarely obliterate.
Good to know, thank you!
 

SparkyJones

Well Known
You have a 6ft tank so yes, with some planning 2 females can work in the same tank together, you'd put a breeding slate in either corner of the tank to keep the females as far from each other's territory as possible. Females only can work bit no males at all, the females will spawn and have territory, but no male to fertilize the eggs, if there's a male the females are going to fight to get their eggs fertilized... by removing the competition.

What won't work is the discus which are going to behave the same as the angels if any females and breeding and the rams which are going to behave similar. The discus and angels and rams are going to all be fighting for breeding territory. It's not happening now with the angels and rams because it's a big tank and one female. All these fish need spawning sites and territory they will defend and if you have females, they are going to fight for it and the males will help to defend it.

At face value none of these fish are territorial to an extreme until spawning becomes a factor, they they get territorial and defensive/aggressive.

While you could breed any of these technically in a 20 or 30 gallon and just a pair per tank, you'd be pushing the limits with them As far as floor space and territory with just one pair of each type in the same 6 ft tank, and needing 3 territories, even with planning, and setting up a cone on one end for the discus, a slate on the other of the angel, and a pile of rock and big leaf plant for the rams in the middle, when eggs get put down there's going to be territory overlaps where these guys are going to butt heads and try to kill each other defending eggs most likely.

I know angels well. I don't know discus or rams behavior well, so not sure what happens with all male discus or all male rams.The discus school together and have similar spawning behavior and are likely similar to angels behavior and would remain peaceful and just cruise around, but the rams aren't like that at all and likely need a different plan entirely. When spawning all these fish are sharing floor space and when they aren't the rams could move into other areas, and then angel or discus comes back to put down eggs again and finds someone else there and it won't end well.

You can do what you want of course, we all learn by trying things, just saying to have a plan to break things up if it's not working out as you wanted it to so the fish aren't suffering from it and forced to live with intolerable neighbors. I'd think if you take breeding out for the angels and discus with just males, your only wild card might be the rams that operate differently.

One thing is for sure, any fry from any of them aren't going to make it long, everyone is gonna want to eat them.
 
OP
Jrhodes76

Jrhodes76

New Member
You have a 6ft tank so yes, with some planning 2 females can work in the same tank together, you'd put a breeding slate in either corner of the tank to keep the females as far from each other's territory as possible. Females only can work bit no males at all, the females will spawn and have territory, but no male to fertilize the eggs, if there's a male the females are going to fight to get their eggs fertilized... by removing the competition.

What won't work is the discus which are going to behave the same as the angels if any females and breeding and the rams which are going to behave similar. The discus and angels and rams are going to all be fighting for breeding territory. It's not happening now with the angels and rams because it's a big tank and one female. All these fish need spawning sites and territory they will defend and if you have females, they are going to fight for it and the males will help to defend it.

At face value none of these fish are territorial to an extreme until spawning becomes a factor, they they get territorial and defensive/aggressive.

While you could breed any of these technically in a 20 or 30 gallon and just a pair per tank, you'd be pushing the limits with them As far as floor space and territory with just one pair of each type in the same 6 ft tank, and needing 3 territories, even with planning, and setting up a cone on one end for the discus, a slate on the other of the angel, and a pile of rock and big leaf plant for the rams in the middle, when eggs get put down there's going to be territory overlaps where these guys are going to butt heads and try to kill each other defending eggs most likely.

I know angels well. I don't know discus or rams behavior well, so not sure what happens with all male discus or all male rams.The discus school together and have similar spawning behavior and are likely similar to angels behavior and would remain peaceful and just cruise around, but the rams aren't like that at all and likely need a different plan entirely. When spawning all these fish are sharing floor space and when they aren't the rams could move into other areas, and then angel or discus comes back to put down eggs again and finds someone else there and it won't end well.

You can do what you want of course, we all learn by trying things, just saying to have a plan to break things up if it's not working out as you wanted it to so the fish aren't suffering from it and forced to live with intolerable neighbors. I'd think if you take breeding out for the angels and discus with just males, your only wild card might be the rams that operate differently.

One thing is for sure, any fry from any of them aren't going to make it long, everyone is gonna want to eat them.
Yes, you are exactly right. I don’t plan to breed any of them though…except maybe the rams. Maybe. So ideally all the same gender of each would go in the 125. Rams are MEAN. Beautiful but mean. They don’t call them rams for no reason and they are fin nippers too (they really only bother the angels at feeding time though and I don’t think they’ve ever done fin damage unless the one guys fins were damaged from the rams and not the angels). I love them, don’t get me wrong but if anything goes it will have to be the rams. I have 4 females and 2 males and even though the males are the best looking, in rams…they are the problem. They are jerks to everyone, not just their own kind. They are little spitfires, small but feisty and they think they are big. They have little dog syndrome, lol. I have already thought about putting a pair in my 20 gallon for breeding and I’m not sure about the other male female pair…I think 10 gallons is too small but that’s all have open. I’ve also thought about leaving one male with the females in the 125 and just removing the eggs if I decide to breed them. Rams don’t have very long lifespans. I heard if yours live 18 months you are doing good but who knows. Something about bad genes and overbreeding/inbreeding and being imported. Mine are only about 6 mos. So we’ll see how long they live. Supposedly if you breed them on your own or buy from a local breeder they live longer and are healthier (that’s the reason I may breed them…that and I don’t know of any local breeder near where I live). Anyway, I do think they would be fine with all male angels and all one gender discus. It’s just getting to that point where I know that’s what I have. It sure is a process, isn’t it, lol? It keeps it interesting and keeps us learning as we go. If I kept the female angels, I’d put them in an entirely different tank, alone with other fish species….like another community tank. Honestly I will probably just rehome them though due to lack of space. There’s so many options and not enough space for more aquariums, lol. Thank you for all your help. You are extremely knowledgeable and I’ve learned a lot from you!
 

Linda1234

Well Known
GBR are somewhat like angels; you can keep a pair with a pair of angels and there isn't too much of an issue (my GBR never nipped fins but i saw that yours did); two female gbr with a male will have the same issue as with angels; In a 120 (4ft long 2 ft wide) the first female hunted the 2nd relentlessly until i removed her. You can keep 20 gbr together - that'll work if you cram them in there ;)

I did manage to keep a female angelfish with 6 males and things were pretty well behaved for a couple of years. The female picked the male and occasionally a 2nd one would sneak in there. For a while i had 2 pairs and that was messy.... Not sure about discus but i get the feeling they aren't as vicious because i hear about pairs breeding in a discus tank frequently. Also i've seen GBR with discus frequently 86 ssinit does that I think. To be honest i don't think the tank is large enough for 6 angels with 6 discus (ignoring the bickering of the angels) and i'd go with one or the other and then consider 2 or 4 gbr.
 

Itiwhetu

Active Member
The 5 Discus I have now are great they are Brothers and Sisters and although I have 2 pair mouth wrestling, they are all fine together and so far I have had no problems with them.
 

86 ssinit

Fishlore Legend
For me discus and angel are a no go. Angels are just vicious fish! I’ve got 2 blue females. Used to have a male they killed it. 2 females are fine together. Mine are 3yrs old. My discus are no where near as vicious. I’ve had 2 and once 3 different pairs lay eggs in the tank with no problems. 2 sets went to wigglers but were eaten. Gbr also do fine with the discus but don’t live long. 2-3 yrs at best. I think the water is too warm.
 
OP
Jrhodes76

Jrhodes76

New Member
GBR are somewhat like angels; you can keep a pair with a pair of angels and there isn't too much of an issue (my GBR never nipped fins but i saw that yours did); two female gbr with a male will have the same issue as with angels; In a 120 (4ft long 2 ft wide) the first female hunted the 2nd relentlessly until i removed her. You can keep 20 gbr together - that'll work if you cram them in there ;)

I did manage to keep a female angelfish with 6 males and things were pretty well behaved for a couple of years. The female picked the male and occasionally a 2nd one would sneak in there. For a while i had 2 pairs and that was messy.... Not sure about discus but i get the feeling they aren't as vicious because i hear about pairs breeding in a discus tank frequently. Also i've seen GBR with discus frequently 86 ssinit does that I think. To be honest i don't think the tank is large enough for 6 angels with 6 discus (ignoring the bickering of the angels) and i'd go with one or the other and then consider 2 or 4 gbr.
I don’t think I’ll be adding more angels after I remove the females so I may only end up with 4 angels. Maybe 5 if all the others are males and get along for the most part. I read somewhere that the combination of angelfish and discus works better if you have more discus than angelfish. So I’m guessing that’s because angels are a little snarkier. I don’t really know how it will go though so I guess we’ll see. It seems like I’m constantly moving fish around so I guess if it doesn’t work with them I’ll just move some, lol.
My rams are jerks to each other and some of the other fish too. It’s mostly the males though. I have 2 pairs (one pair on each end) and then 2 lone females in the middle for claimed territory. It works out okay. I only had 5 at one point and the 1 lone female was getting bullied to no end (and for the life of me I couldn’t catch her to separate her-they are SO fast! And my tank is so big and deep with lots of stuff in it) so I got another one so she wouldn’t be a 5th wheel. It worked! Although they are both female, no one gets too bullied anymore. I’d say the newest one now gets picked on the most because she’s smaller yet but she doesn’t look too terribly stressed about it. It’s not like with the other lone one. I also have a lot of hiding spaces and vision breaks so that helps. I don’t think I’ll replace any as they die though. In the future I’ll probably only keep 1 or 2 pair. As you said they are just way too territorial. But it’s something I didn’t know until after I got them. I’m the typical fish keeper…learning as I go, lol.
The 5 Discus I have now are great they are Brothers and Sisters and although I have 2 pair mouth wrestling, they are all fine together and so far I have had no problems with them.
That is good to know! I hope mine get along too!!
For me discus and angel are a no go. Angels are just vicious fish! I’ve got 2 blue females. Used to have a male they killed it. 2 females are fine together. Mine are 3yrs old. My discus are no where near as vicious. I’ve had 2 and once 3 different pairs lay eggs in the tank with no problems. 2 sets went to wigglers but were eaten. Gbr also do fine with the discus but don’t live long. 2-3 yrs at best. I think the water is too warm.
I hope I have luck with males and female discus in my tank too. I’m planning to have less angels than discus (and all male angels) so hopefully that helps. I’ll also rearrange decor before adding the discus so hopefully it works. If not I’ll be separating them.
 

86 ssinit

Fishlore Legend
Discus cost more than angels and if adding after the angels you should get bigger ones. Now your angels will own the tank with discus being invaders. May not work. Where will you be getting your discus from and how big?
 

Itiwhetu

Active Member
A general comment about Cichlids. If you want a happy tank don't mix species. Angels with Angels, Discus with Discus, Severums with Severums. Things turn to custard when you mix species. This is my old Severum tank Mum and Dad kids, there were around 40 fish in this 300 liter tank and they raised their babies and never had any real fights.

057.JPG
 
OP
Jrhodes76

Jrhodes76

New Member
For me discus and angel are a no go. Angels are just vicious fish! I’ve got 2 blue females. Used to have a male they killed it. 2 females are fine together. Mine are 3yrs old. My discus are no where near as vicious. I’ve had 2 and once 3 different pairs lay eggs in the tank with no problems. 2 sets went to wigglers but were eaten. Gbr also do fine with the discus but don’t live long. 2-3 yrs at best. I think the water is too warm.
I hope I have luck with males and female discus in my tank too. I’m planning to have less angels than discus (and all male angels) so hopefully that helps. I’ll also rearrange decor before adding the discus so hopefully it works. If not I’ll be separating them.
Discus cost more than angels and if adding after the angels you should get bigger ones. Now your angels will own the tank with discus being invaders. May not work. Where will you be getting your discus from and how big?
I think we are going to get them from Hans Discus. They seemed to have the best variety the last time I looked. Is there somewhere else you recommend? And as much as I’d love to get larger ones, I was honestly planning to get 2-2.5” and growing them out. I work from home so can keep up with the feedings and water changes. However I realize it takes a long time so if I’m able to afford it, I know it’s better to get 4-5”, they are just so much more money. That’s a lot of plasma I’ll be donating (hey, you gotta do what you gotta do to for your aquarium fund) . But the angelfish are still young so maybe it would be better for the tank to get the discus large.
 

Linda1234

Well Known
As a general rule i find mixing cichlid that are peaceful and don't look too much alike safer than having too many of the same species. There are some exception of course such as keyholes and discus where larger groups get along just fine. I'd have a more peaceful tank - for example 2 angels and a pair of Laetacara than four angles. No clue about severums - never had them. While fishes have distinct personalities my last pair of breeding angels was excellent in a community tank. When breeding they did guard the eggs and wrigglers but the area they guarded was fairly small - maybe 8 inches diameter and the tetra and loaches avoided that area; having said that the pair i had before them demanded 2 to 3 feet area around their 'nest' so i will say that it doesn't always work. So far angles and clown loaches have worked well but my clown loaches are only 4 years old; no clue what happens when they get to 10... they are big enough to shove the angels out of the way if they wanted but at least so far they respect their space. However, they will not tolerate plecos in their cave so there is that aspect... then again you don't want pleco with discus...
 

TClare

Well Known
Some cichlid combinations work fine - I have a severum, Uarus, Mesonauta and Cichlasoma together. In another tank I have angels and Laetacaras. There are several other cichlid combinations that can work with the right tank size and setup. But I have often read that angels and discus are not a good combination.
 

86 ssinit

Fishlore Legend
Yes the angel especially the domestic angels can get vicious. Some people are keeping altum and other wilds with there discus. Butto me it’s just to big of a risk. As to plecos and discus. I’ve got plecos in all my tanks. Bushy nose nothing bigger. Also have ottos in there tanks.

As to clowns and angels mine get along fine. Also have a feather fin in that tank and a new green phantom pleco. All but the pleco have been together for 2+ yrears the clowns and feather are 8 yrs old same as some of the bosemani and corys in the tank.
 

Linda1234

Well Known
Just an FYI: I had a nasty old male bn that decided one day it was easier to suck anglefishes than glass.... took a while to hunt him down but the damage to the angels was er ugly; a couple died but after i removed the bn the others healed up - only took around 4 months for them to heal.
 
OP
Jrhodes76

Jrhodes76

New Member
You guys!! They have been in a separate tank for only about 10 days now and have laid eggs. Not all got fertilized but some did because we have wigglers now!!
No idea why I’m so excited. I mean if any babies make it, I guess we breed them once and see how it goes/see if anyone wants the offspring. White Gold Marble Ghost babies on the way I guess!
 

86 ssinit

Fishlore Legend
Always fun to have fry! Fun to grow them out. With you luck with moving them on :).
 

Similar Aquarium Threads

Replies
17
Views
266
yukondog
  • Locked
Replies
34
Views
1K
bizaliz3
  • Locked
  • Poll
Replies
16
Views
847
bizaliz3

Random Great Page!

Did You Know...

You can change the default color scheme of the forum by using the 'Style Chooser' found at the bottom of every page. You must be logged in to use the style chooser.

Aquarium Calculator

Desktop
Top Bottom