How Do I Know When To Cull Angelfish Fry?

I want to start by saying this is an advanced question. I have been breeding angels for over 2 years and raised many successful spawns from numerous different pairs for multiple generations. So I know all the basics and then some......

The culling topic is something I have always struggled with though. But the larger my spawns have gotten....I can't keep trying to "save them all". And bringing them to the LFS with cosmetic flaws is embarrassing and it is considered a disservice to the species in general. I have done a lot of research on the topic. And I read on the angelfish society website, which "traits" are genetic and constitute culling. They list four things: Gill plate deformities, deformed or missing ventrals, analfins bent rearward, and belly sliders.

The issue I am dealing with is none of those 4 things. I have about 150 blue pearlscale angel babies right now. All of which are at least dime sized or larger. There are just a few with severely bent ventrals or missing ventrals, I don't see any gill plate issues, or belly sliders. So that is all good!!! BUT about 10-20% of them are having their dorsal fins get droopy bends at the tips of them. Some of them have the analfin bent as well. I guess that fits into the "bent analfin" category. But the angelfish society didn't mention the dorsal fins bending. And that is where my main issue lies. Many of them have perfectly normal analfins, but the dorsal has the bend.

Whats frustrating is that everything I have read suggests this would only be caused by overcrowding and poor water quality. (Free Willy anyone? lol) Neither of which am I guilty of though!! My fry tanks get water changes daily, or every other day at the least. The tanks are appropriately stocked and the water quality is perfect.

SOOOOOOO...my question is, could this be a genetic thing and there is nothing I can do about it? I had the same thing happen with previous batches of babies too. Different parents. But again, I take immaculate care of my fry. So I just can't believe that I am causing it somehow. And it is usually just a small % of them that get the bent fins. The majority develop wonderfully. I would think it would affect the MAJORITY of them if it were something I was doing wrong. Rather than the minority....

With that being said, if it is genetic, I assume then, that I need to cull that 15-ish% that are developing those bent fins? Its so hard to consider because they are so beautiful and healthy despite the imperfect fins.

I have larger cichlids that I can feed the culled fry to. But at dime size, that will be hard to watch!!! And if I have to cull like 20 or more....I will just be very sad about that. I've got approx. 150, like I said, so the majority are looking excellent. But I refuse to bring fish with bent fins to the LFS. I did it a couple times, just a few of them, and it was genuinely embarrassing! lol Everone's first assumption would be that I am caring for them poorly, and that just isn't the case!

So with all of that being said....could the bent dorsal fins on 15% of my fry be genetic and require being culled? Or is there something I need to be doing differently? I have raised many stunning angels into adulthood....and brought tons of gorgeous fry to the LFS...but I am afraid I need to cull these bent dorsals and that really stinks.

chromedome52 AlyeskaGirl
I don't know who to "mention" so if anyone knows any other members who may have some insight, please mention them for me! Thanks!!!


wow.....that got really long. Sorry.

 

I would look into culling those with bent fins, some of those with missing ventrals produce perfectly healthy fry when bred. But if it is embarrassing to take them in and you have few other options, calling them would be best before they get adopted into too small of a tank or remain at the store. We all know how well your fish are cared for so the only other option is genetic.

 

The only input I have is that I 100% agree that putting out defective fish to lfs is a disservice to the species and a bit embarrassing for larger breeders. On a small scale and will small spawns a few minor things isn't all that bad.

But here's the thing, there are like 10 PetSmarts where I live, if not more. Their supplier produced several huge batches of calico goldfish.
With missing gill plates.
Not upturned, missing.
Every single one of them, in every PetSmart, and differently aged spawns at that, for 6 months now. This is in Vancouver BC.

Now that's disgraceful.

So thanks on behalf of squimmish people like me for doing the unpleasant work. >:/

 

I have seen a lot of wild angels arrive in Canada, and when you check the bags, a certain percentage have anal and dorsal fins that are short and/or hooked in. It isn't shipping damage, it's shape. The great majority have beautiful tall dorsals and symmetrical fins. Sound familiar?

Remember, breeding standards are to our eyes and tastes.

Here's the cruel fact. Once you start breeding "fancies" you are breeding to the market. What you raise is what you will be able to easily sell while maintaining a good reputation with the stores you sell to. If you sell fish seen as unmarketable or deformed, then you won't be able to sell again. Any breed standards you find are purely artificial - pearlscale could be argued to be a bad mutation - but people like it a lot.

It leaves you with a bind. When I bred angels, and had limited space, my harsh decision was only to raise young that showed tall fins early. I could take bags of what I saw as my ideal to auctions, and they sold well. And since I'm a softie, I had a few less than stellar angels in my 75, as non breeders. I culled early, and missed sometimes...

 

Hello biz!

As far as I know with the angels, the bent dorsal fin is genetic (unless they accidentally get caught in something for example); my breeding koi female has a bent dorsal fin that only started developing when her body was about 1.5-2in or so and I know my water conditions have been kept extremely pristine since I have gotten her (almost 6 years now); her other breeding sister has a very straight, almost picture perfect, dorsal.

From her offspring, about 10% (somewhat close to your statistic, but I haven't had as many fry as I think you have, so my statistics may be a bit skewed) had those bent dorsal fins into about dime sized-as well. I began culling them (which does stink) because I did notice that (from a quick experiment) that their broods, while small in the number of bent dorsals had very bent dorsals instead (to the point where I believed they kinda swam funny because there is this large flap, almost half the dorsal would bend, above their bodies).

The ones what began exhibiting the bent dorsals when they were larger (like my breeding koi, or about quarter size) would produce fewer bent dorsals or none at all (like my original)

Therefore, from that, I think (and it really is sad) is to cull the ones that develop the bent fin when they are quite small as, at least in my experience, increased the number of bent fins that would worsen then they were older and affect their health. Unless they have some beautiful coloring/patterning (in which that may offset the shape of their fin), it is probably best to cull them.

For the ones that did get the bent fins later in life, I did cull them in order to help keep the lines clean (in all honesty, it may have developed from being a species bred together for decades) , but only if they didn't display a quality I wasn't convinced to keep as I know they will have "healthy" fry as well. The cosmetic issue can be hard to sell in general on the LFS end, as well as embarrassing for you as well. And if by chance you do sell a "deformed" one, what's to stop an inexperienced person from buying a mate and continuing the genetics and make it worse? . It really does make it a vicious cycle :/

I am a softie tho; I will keep the ones that I really like, even if they aren't perfect

 

Thank you so much guys! I really appreciate the input!!

very well said, thank you! It's nice to hear that even the wild caught ones experience the imperfections like this. And you are exactly right, I will not be able to keep selling if I hand over less than perfect fry to the LFS. And I am truly doing a disservice to the species if I do anyway! I just really wanted to make sure there isn't something I could be doing differently. But I guess the only thing I can do differently here is start culling more :-(

tunafax That is just awful that a "professional" breeder would hand out that many genetically deformed fish to the stores! And yes, this is definitely an unpleasant spot to be in. I really REALLY struggle with culling fish whose ONLY issue is COSEMTIC. Because that is all this is! These are healthy angels, with nice solid bodies and coloring.....they are perfectly healthy in every way. Other than their bent fins. Some of them are not very severly bent, so I might give them a chance...but the more severe ones, I will have to suck it up and cull them :-( Booo

KinsKicks Thank you as well for sharing your experience with this. I really appreciate it. I am also a softy....and in the beginning, I tried to keep the ones that should have been culled, but I just can't do that anymore! Especially with these large spawns. I am just going to have to throw them into the cichlid tank and run away and not watch :-( They are such pretty healthy angels though! it feels so WRONG!!!!!!!!!

Mcasella thank you I appreciate it. I just hate thinking that I might be doing something wrong. But you all know how hard I work for my angels....and I appreciate the encouragement. I guess I will have to cull healthy angels :-( It's heartbreaking really.

 

I believe the bent dorsal/analfins are damage that occurs at a very, very early stage - and cannot really be avoided. Consider if you piled 150 infants on top of one another, some would certainly get hurt. And that's what is happening when the larvae are all lumped together. Could even be poor parental handling.

Gill covers are definitely from overcrowding; made that mistake once, and had to destroy almost the entire spawn of about 200+. Ventrals I am uncertain about, but I had a pair that produced a large percentage with one ventral missing, and usually the same side on all of them. That appears to me to be genetic.

 

Thanks chromedome52 ! I appreciate the input.

To give you guys a visual....
Approx 15% develop this bend at the tip of their dorsal. As you can see it's a beautiful healthy Angel otherwise!



The other 85% are stunning perfection! Like this guy...

 

This was interesting to read. I wondered if culling really works. I just always go back to the fact that for 500,000 years 10% of the population has been left handed. That's a long time for a genetic abnormality to remain unchanged. Especially through difficulty and prejudice. But if y'all see the difference then I gotta believe your eyes

 

Being left handed isn't abnormal, it's the rest of you who are messed up.

 

Being left handed isn't abnormal, it's the rest of you who are messed up.

This lefty seconds that!

 

Being left handed isn't abnormal, it's the rest of you who are messed up.

Quite right

 

Being left handed isn't abnormal, it's the rest of you who are messed up.

I will fourth that.

 

This was interesting to read. I wondered if culling really works. I just always go back to the fact that for 500,000 years 10% of the population has been left handed. That's a long time for a genetic abnormality to remain unchanged. Especially through difficulty and prejudice. But if y'all see the difference then I gotta believe your eyes

Do they count ambidextrous people as left or right handed? (I mean i'm considered a lefty since I don't do very much writing with the right, but I am right handed in sports because it is easier - but I can write legibly with both hands, you might have to squint with the right-hand's writing, but you can read it..). Neither of my sisters are left handed, but I am, it just seems to be a mental connection for you to right or left, so you wouldn't be able to run it completely out of a gene pool even if it used to be called sinestry (sp?).

 

Do they count ambidextrous people as left or right handed? (I mean i'm considered a lefty since I don't do very much writing with the right, but I am right handed in sports because it is easier - but I can write legibly with both hands, you might have to squint with the right-hand's writing, but you can read it..). Neither of my sisters are left handed, but I am, it just seems to be a mental connection for you to right or left, so you wouldn't be able to run it completely out of a gene pool even if it used to be called sinestry (sp?).

I think when being left-handed was seen as bad those who were ambidextrious just said they were right handed. In reality they simply use both hands, and are in a category all their own. I'm the youngest of five, three are left-handed, and two use both hands equally. I'm not actually sure if being left or right handed is completely genetic or not. I know when my oldest sister was in Kindergarten the teacher asked my Mom if she could tie her left-hand behind her back to train her to use only her right hand the entire school day. This was really common in my sister's era it could be trained out of someone. Most genetic mutations can't be trained out of an animal such as a fish as far as I know. My Mom said no by the way.

 

Hey bizaliz3 I was hoping I could ask you about this. My fry were laid on July 23 free swimming about the 30th can't recall exactly and just yesterday I noticed some of their dorsal fins turning down. Or bending. (So about 8 weeks old) They are behind my couch so I watch them all the time. So I noticed exactly when it began. Which was yesterday lol. Did you determine if anything could be causing it or if it's genetic? Mine moved to a 120 gallon maybe 2 weeks ago or so. So I'm worried that Maybe the current caused by the canister could be causing it. Am I nuts? Some of their dorsal fins are getting fatter at the top. Which is like their mother. The one on the far right
And some of them are angling off at the top, Which is like their father.
But some are just hardcore bent like the one you posted above.

I agree with what you said about them being too big (old) to watch getting eaten. That's hard what did you decide to do? I think I gotta harden up my heart for this

 

Hey bizaliz3 I was hoping I could ask you about this. My fry were laid on July 23 free swimming about the 30th can't recall exactly and just yesterday I noticed some of their dorsal fins turning down. Or bending. (So about 8 weeks old) They are behind my couch so I watch them all the time. So I noticed exactly when it began. Which was yesterday lol. Did you determine if anything could be causing it or if it's genetic? Mine moved to a 120 gallon maybe 2 weeks ago or so. So I'm worried that Maybe the current caused by the canister could be causing it. Am I nuts? Some of their dorsal fins are getting fatter at the top. Which is like their mother. The one on the far right View attachment 355426 And some of them are angling off at the top, Which is like their father.View attachment 355427 But some are just hardcore bent like the one you posted above. View attachment 355428
I agree with what you said about them being too big (old) to watch getting eaten. That's hard what did you decide to do? I think I gotta harden up my heart for this

I've wondered about the current myself. Because it doesn't happen until they get upgraded to a bigger tank with more flow. But that timing could be a coincidence too....my grow out tanks can get a teeny bit crowded at times. So I've chalked it up to the crowd more than the current. But if it started happening to yours in a giant 120 gallon grow out tank....then it can't be crowding. Maybe there is something to be said about the current!!!! Hmmmmmm

I do Notice as they get bigger that the ones with that tiny bend end up having the tallest widest fins.....So maybe they proved to be too heavy in the current???
Or is it simply genetic? I honestly haven't made that conclusion yet.....But if it's happening to yours I'm gonna rule out the crowd as the culprit....

I culled a few....but it was just too hard for me. I can handle it when they are teeny tiny...but these ones are too big and too healthy to cull for my taste.

I have chosen to try and grow out those ones with bent dorsals longer than normal in hopes that the Fins will improve. And I do find that for most of them, the Fins improve sifnificantly when they get bigger.....this is one reason why I think it's probably not a genetic thing.....And also a reason why they should NOT be culled!!

 

As a rookie with angelfish I don't see anything wrong with any of the angelfish pictured. So I'm not much help. Lol

 

As a rookie with angelfish I don't see anything wrong with any of the angelfish pictured. So I'm not much help. Lol

That's because they're beautiful regardless

 

I guess its just any animal that is bred. To have a true 100% whatever the breeder needs to keep a tight hold on perfection. Just like dogs ive always had mutts not pure bred ones. Lol

 

bizaliz3

I've wondered about the current myself. Because it doesn't happen until they get upgraded to a bigger tank with more flow. But that timing could be a coincidence too....my grow out tanks can get a teeny bit crowded at times. So I've chalked it up to the crowd more than the current. But if it started happening to yours in a giant 120 gallon grow out tank....then it can't be crowding. Maybe there is something to be said about the current!!!! Hmmmmmm

I do Notice as they get bigger that the ones with that tiny bend end up having the tallest widest fins.....So maybe they proved to be too heavy in the current???
Or is it simply genetic? I honestly haven't made that conclusion yet.....But if it's happening to yours I'm gonna rule out the crowd as the culprit....

I culled a few....but it was just too hard for me. I can handle it when they are teeny tiny...but these ones are too big and too healthy to cull for my taste.

I have chosen to try and grow out those ones with bent dorsals longer than normal in hopes that the Fins will improve. And I do find that for most of them, the Fins improve sifnificantly when they get bigger.....this is one reason why I think it's probably not a genetic thing.....And also a reason why they should NOT be culled!!

I'll treat you to my sketching lol. Logically it makes sense aeronautically for the dorsal to bend if constantly fighting the current.

But also. If as you say the longer ones bend then it could be that whatever is above the bone or cartilage could bend over time in a fast current too.

But it's perplexing to say the least. I could feed them to Oscars which in this tank They would be gone before hitting the water But I don't think I can do it. I also can't keep a bunch of Angel fish lol. How do you think they would do at this size in a tank with a gourami? They are much bigger than his mouth. And that tank has much less current.
I have a couple other breeding questions. Would you mind? Or rather I start another thread?

 

I gave AngelTheGypsy a video full of angels to choose from and she chose one with a bent dorsal. There were plenty with "perfect fins". But that one she chose was a beauty! I have seen people at the fish store intentionally pick ones with a bent fin. There is a market for NOT perfect fish!! Lol

Since you brought up the dog comparison....I have a shiba inu that I got from a breeder 7 years ago. People typically go to the breeders for their show dogs...And nobody wanted her Because she wasn't show dog material or breeding material. She is a runt and her tail does not curl as tightly as it "should" and she has a very very slight underbite. But I tell you, she is the most beautiful dog ever!!! And I am not biased!!!! I get stopped by people all the time asking about her! I feel like a celebrity when we go out and about lol no lie!! I definitely rescued that girl because the breeder was not giving her the love and care that she needed. She was worthless to the breeder! She was almost 1 1/2 years old by the time I took her home. The rest of this ladies puppies sell very quickly for a lot of money. In fact she has a long waiting list. But She just kinda shoved my dog aside until somebody like me finally found her!!

OK that was long winded. Sorry! I just think the expectation of perfection, in any species, is ridiculous. If it is ONLY cosmetic....Then the perfection is in the eye of the beholder!!!

 

I honestly LOVE the curled fins! I mean, how could you not love Elvis?

 

In honor of my story about my dog...I just want to share my favorite photos of her!




I even got a tattoo of her smiling face! Lol



Can you believe no one wanted this beautiful girl!!! Stupid perfection standards!

 

I would of thought the curved top fin is supposed to be like that.

 

Maby you can call that bent fin something and get it to catch on like a new trend. Lol. Charge a dollar more and call it fancy fin.

 

I would of thought the curved top fin is supposed to be like that.

Here is how it is "supposed to" be...and how the majority of them are.




Here are the ones that are the topic of discussion




This guy has a pretty extreme case...



This guy had a pretty tight bend at the tip of his dorsal when he was dime-sized but it has improved significantly as He has grown. He is a little bigger than a quarter now.

 

I like the look of the bent fin personally. Lol

 

I fall into that inexperienced buyer!I bought a pair of Angels at my LFS for my 55G community tank and one of them has a bent dorsal fin.As it turned out they are a breeding pair and if the egg
s hatch I don`t have a clue to what I`m going to do with the fry.

 

Omg bizaliz3 the rufferee.... love it!!!

So culling is tough... I line bred guppies for a bit and unfortunately had to start partaking in more aggressive culling to keep lines pure... also mostly because I was running out of space... in order to avoid culling I have two large community tanks, one for females, one for males that I was not using in my breeding... I did sell off lots to lfs just as "fancy guppies" but
my main issue arrived when I wanted to try a new line... these males bred hunched back guppies.. about 30% of fry had it... changed females, those were fine... however, bred those back to fathers and got the hunches again...

I'm the (lefty) with a big heart, (I also have a three legged dog, and with my prior life as a vet tech adopt only medical needs animals, my cats were a mess as well...but they all deserved love...and none of them were bred) had kept all deformed males and females separate... but didn't cull... and ran out of space... couldn't sell them, didn't want to mix them in with the rest of the population. Interestingly enough those deformed back guppies had 100% not deformed fry (I missed a male when sorting)... but they were all carriers for this gene... eventually I had to cull due to space...was much harder to cull the adults then fry
If I had released any into the general population (sold carriers to lfs, etc) it would bring down the health and vigor for many... they would breed and continue carrying this deformity... not good

As a side note, apparently this gene in guppies is being used for studies in scoliosis treatment for humans... fascinating

So realistically beyond the issues of culling it becomes an issue of responsible breeding.. in the case of your shebas tail... minor detail. However, let's say one batch of pups came in with deformed spines, or one leg shorter then the rest, maybe a minor heart murmur, but otherwise perfectly healthy (remember not discussing culling, but breeding). Should the breeder continue to use the male/female in their breeding program???? Most of us would say no, spay/neuter and adopt them out.... but let's say they weren't spayed/neutered and adopted out, and the new adoptive parent wants to breed... and they do... most pups are healthy... they sell those.. those breed and depending on the genetic mix of their mates the trait is back....
When we have the option to control breeding, should we???

I found out while pregnant that my daughter had an extra X chromosome.... overall there were no immediate risks to her beyond some learning difficulties (which she has some of) but has a full and normal life expectancy. I chose not to terminate... also though this is a random genetic occurrence and even if she has children this is not passed on...

however, Parents of a friend of mine had both found out that they were carriers of Huntingtons BEFORE they had children... and still chose to have kids... my friend is one of three children, and was only told about this risk after my friend had children, when her brothers got sick... parents told them they knew all along, but chose to have them. My friends son tested positive... her brothers have since passed, both had married and had kids of their own, one had two girls, one is a carrier, the other is not. The other brother had a boy and a girl, the mother refuses to get them tested...

There are so many complexities involved in making proper choices... and I can't say nor will ever judge someone else's choices. I am thankful for my friend, but am saddened to know that her son will suffer as her brothers did. Her general outlook would have been to do prenatal amnios specifically for this, and would have chosen to terminate if tests came up positive. Her two other children, one is completely clear, her daughter is a carrier.

Anyway... super long post with too many personal details...
but back to topic... beyond culling, all fish bred from the pair have potential to be carriers, so should the pair continue to be bred??? And should those showing the defect be culled??? Totally personal choice...
If AngelTheGypsy decided to use hers in breeding, what happens then? The defect COULD potentially be bred out depending on the other mate...with completely straight fin offspring for generations...

(And I turned to fishkeeping for relaxation?!?!?!?!?!?!)

 

I honestly LOVE the curled fins! I mean, how could you not love Elvis?
View attachment 355844

Agree, Elvis is very nice looking.

 

My wife is such a softy she took our daughters hamster to the vet with a broken leg. Vet put a cast on it. It got infected vet amputated it. That was one expensive hamster.

 

In my case I just wanted a pair of Angels to go along with my Cardinals and Rummy Noses,I could care less if they breed or not.

 

bizaliz3 Jocelyn Adelman

I did notice that when I received them the fins were more curled than when they left you, most likely due to the tight space in shipping bags. With all the photos I'm taking, it will be easy to watch this as they grow. At this time, Sparky is the only one with a perfectly straight dorsal fin. Makes me want to go ahead and move everyone to the 75, but I think I should wait.
What Jocelyn mentions in guppies seems a little different. Bent spines seems more detrimental than fins. These guys seem to have absolutely no problem swimming. But pearlscale would be another trait that could be considered undesirable by some.
But for the bent fins, has anything ever come out of the angelfish society about this issue?
As far as breeding/selling them, the issue (IF it's genetic) seems to me to be bigger with the guys with straight fins. They don't show the gene. People buying the bent fin ones know it's there, but not those buying straight. Should it be disclosed?
I'm a long way from breeding anyone myself; everyone is still small. It's been mentioned that my high pH may hinder any eggs from being viable; only time will tell.

But Biz, who all are you seeing with bent fins? Just the blue pearlscale offspring or other spawns as well. Like I said, both Niall and Goldie are showing bent dorsals now, and they are from different spawns, but it may be a symptom from shipping.




A screenshot of the video Biz sent me to choose. Goldie's dorsal is not perfectly visible, but you can plainly see Niall's dorsal is perfectly straight. Elvis is directly above Goldie, and Sparky is far right, Next to Niall.


So it appears Niall's fin is from limited space during shipping, not genetic...

 

bizaliz3 Jocelyn Adelman

I did notice that when I received them the fins were more curled than when they left you, most likely due to the tight space in shipping bags. With all the photos I'm taking, it will be easy to watch this as they grow. At this time, Sparky is the only one with a perfectly straight dorsal fin. Makes me want to go ahead and move everyone to the 75, but I think I should wait.
What Jocelyn mentions in guppies seems a little different. Bent spines seems more detrimental than fins. These guys seem to have absolutely no problem swimming. But pearlscale would be another trait that could be considered undesirable by some.
But for the bent fins, has anything ever come out of the angelfish society about this issue?
As far as breeding/selling them, the issue (IF it's genetic) seems to me to be bigger with the guys with straight fins. They don't show the gene. People buying the bent fin ones know it's there, but not those buying straight. Should it be disclosed?
I'm a long way from breeding anyone myself; everyone is still small. It's been mentioned that my high pH may hinder any eggs from being viable; only time will tell.

But Biz, who all are you seeing with bent fins? Just the blue pearlscale offspring or other spawns as well. Like I said, both Niall and Goldie are showing bent dorsals now, and they are from different spawns, but it may be a symptom from shipping.
View attachment 356125
View attachment 356127
A screenshot of the video Biz sent me to choose. Goldie's dorsal is not perfectly visible, but you can plainly see Niall's dorsal is perfectly straight. Elvis is directly above Goldie, and Sparky is far right, Next to Niall.
View attachment 356129
So it appears Niall's fin is from limited space during shipping, not genetic...

I wonder if it also plays in from injuries sustained during the angel's "growing period" (though i'm pretty sure they grow their entire life so that why I put quotes), I have a quarter+ sized pinoy that had a split fin and now that it has healed it has a slight dimple effect where the fin grew around the tear then grew the extra fin in the torn area. The angel doesn't have a bent fin, just a pointed section that shows on one side but is otherwise healthy and happily eating everything I give him.
Most breeders cull bent fins, some of them seem to be able to recover either fully or somewhat from the bent fin.

 

Jocelyn Adelman
Everything you just said is exactly why I started this thread. Is a bent dorsal, with no other issues, a cosmetic defect? Or a environmental one?

I researched a lot and I found that bent analfins were a genetic issue....among a few other things.....but bent dorsals were not listed in the lost of undesirable genetic defects with the angelfish society. I certainly don't want to be irresponsible here.. .But I also don't want to cull unnecessarily. Just because of a cosmetic thing that may very likely be environmental, rather than genetic.

chromedome52 thought it might be injuries from very early in life...like even prior to free swimming. Mcasella also saw hints of that. I also feel like overcrowding could play a roll since all of these with bent fins START with perfectly straight fins until approx pea sized or even dime sized. Maybe not even overcrowding necessarily but just that some of the babies do better than others in a large group. I've read That some of the bigger ones can produce anti-growth hormones that slow down the growth of the others....something like that. Maybe that sort of thing can also affect the development of the dorsal?? If I remember correctly at the anti-growth business is a huge reason for the need for very very frequent water changes in grow out tanks......

AlyeskaGirl mentioned that people have been known to cut off the top of a bent dorsal and it grows back normal. If that's so....that leads to environmental and NOT genetic. I also had a young Angel I got from the lfs who had a severe bend. My daughter named him "seven" because that was the shape of the dorsal. Well for some reason not long after getting him he developed fin rot and lost most of the dorsal. I nursed him back to health and when it regrew it came in straight!! Hmmmm

So we have multiple cases of dorsals growing back straight after being damaged or cut. And multiple cases of Angels with bent dorsals growing into adulthood and having them straighten out along the way....

But then we also have an example in this thread of a full grown adult with a bent dorsal. ( Letsfish ) But with the adult we don't know how early that bend arose.....It could have resulted From environmental factors later in life.....(before letsfish got them)

AngelTheGypsy I'm sad that shipping May have caused some bends on their fins....but I'm sure they will recover in your 75!! The Before & After pictures were helpful to illustrate this. That scenario also points a finger towards environmental.....

As for other batches....the batch The gold one was in did have some with bent fins. The non-blue striped guy a few posts back was from the gold's batch and his has improved significantly in the 75 with a smaller group. Niall IV Was from a very small spawn and none of those babies had a bend.....Also pointing a finger towards the smaller crowd NOT experiencing it......

I'm definitely leaning towards environmental. But it can clearly be subtle environmental factors. Because it's not like I extremely overcrowd my grow out tanks.....And the water quality is perfect......So with that being said I would think if I had doubled the crowds and slacked on Water changes, the number of bent fins would be significantly higher!!

 

In my mind, much of this is pointing towards environmental/injury, not genetic, and maybe not a factor for culling?
And I'm not upset about the bends during shipment. Looking back, Goldie did have a slight bend before shipping, but got a little worse in shipment. I expect it to improve, but won't mind if it doesn't. . Like I said, I'm not necessarily aiming to breed.

 

Now.....Sharkbite???? He most definitely should have been culled. But he was (and still is) a very spunky able bodied fish. I couldn't bring myself to cull him. Even though his defect was evident very early on. But I'm definitely doing the responsible thing as far as he is concerned. He will never be bred and he will never be brought to the fish store. And he is a big happy healthy guy with no mobility issues whatsoever. Unfortunately he overcompensates for his deformity by being an incredibly aggressive mean fish. But I still love him.

Photos!!!

 

I will fourth that.

I fifth that lol!

 

Omg I totally want shark Bite!!!!