How come we never read about failed fish in cycles??

Just wondering this this morn. Yes just got up and it hit me!! So thought I’d ask. Next why is it so much better to spend money on so called live bacteria when ten (keyword here) feeder minnows cost a buck? Minnows been around for ever this bottled bacteria wasn’t popular in 2017 when I joined. Don’t get me wrong the whole fishless cycling was absurd so they were looking for an easy way to cycle a tank. So add this bottled bacteria than add fish. Change water regular as needed. Sound like a fish in cycle? Many threads here about this stuff not working. So what’s up? How come the fish in cycles aren’t failing like the fishless??

 

I suppose with fishless cycles there’s more opportunity for error - it seems to be more of an involved process than a fish-in cycle, which basically just requires regular water testing and large water changes. There’s so many products on the market now too that can make things confusing. Easy to see how a beginner can be overwhelmed.

If I were to cycle a tank now (and hopefully I’ll never have to do one again) I’d go fish-in. I know where I stand with that and what I’m doing with that. Thankfully I’ve got plenty of cycled tanks so let’s hope it doesn’t come to that!

 

There are tons of fish-in failures. All the time we get new members looking for advice after their fish have died in a new tank. Sometimes they've used bottled bacteria believing the spin that it would instantly cycle their tank, sometimes not.

 

How come the fish in cycles aren’t failing like the fishless??

Simple, the most frequent mistake with fishless cycling is to not add an ammonia source. As soon as this is cleared to the owner of the tank the cycle starts. The bacteria products are pretty irrelevant in this as it worked without them easily back in the day.

I call an unintentional fishless cycle due to impatient addition of fish already failed the moment the first fish bites the dust due to ammonia poisoning. So we get plenty of failed fish-in cycles as well.

And sorry but I find it quite concerning how you are willing to basically throw away the minnows. Price doesn't matter. Still fish. Still lifeforms.

Fish-in or fish-less, neither ultimately fails in cycling a tank if done correctly. All so-called "fails" have a simple explanation.

 

Throw in some organic matter, raise temperature a bit, maximize water flow, wait a few weeks, and you're done. Move on.

Why am I still clicking on posts about cycling!

 

Simple, the most frequent mistake with fishless cycling is not to add an ammonia source. As soon as this is cleared to the owner of the tank the cycle starts. The bacteria products are pretty irrelevant in this as it worked without them easily back in the day.

I call an unintentional fishless cycle due to impatient addition of fish already failed the moment the first fish bites the dust due to ammonia poisoning. So we get plenty of failed fish-in cycles as well.

And sorry but I find it quite concerning how you are willing to basically throw away the minnows. Price doesn't matter. Still fish. Still lifeforms.

Fish-in or fish-less, neither ultimately fails in cycling a tank if done correctly. All so-called "fails" have a simple explanation.

Missed the key word!!! Feeder minnows. Aren’t they doomed already?? But yes this does seem to be the reason for fishless cycling. Saving fish. Again does seem fish in is a better way.

 

I have read the word feeder. I don't see a difference.
I live in a country where live feeder fish are prohibited due to animal welfare regulations. Regulations I actually support.

 

Fishes cycles can and have been done many times by members here in 12 days or less.

But as stated above people don't seem willing to do the work. Or research.

Its like the attitude "oh I don't need a QT aquarium"....... "Help! my fish started dying after I put new fish in".....

"OOOOOhh, a red betta and those pretty little, what did you call them? right, neons, would look great"....... "why are my neons dying/disappearing and my betta has torn fins?"

ect.

ect.

ect.

ect.

Sorry, a little cranky this morning.....

 

I have read the word feeder. I don't see a difference.
I live in a country where live feeder fish are prohibited due to animal welfare regulations. Regulations I actually support.

You're from California? I thought you were in Germany...


That's interesting about the feeder fish.
Going a bit OT, but how does that affect fishing with live bait?

 

You're from California? I thought you were in Germany...


That's interesting about the feeder fish.
Going a bit OT, but how does that affect fishing with live bait?

We have strict rules and regulations, many of which apply not only in Germany but to the whole of the EU.
Live bait is prohibited as well. As is catch and release.

 

Minnows been around for ever this bottled bacteria wasn’t popular in 2017 when I joined.

It was. You just may not have noticed. It's been popular since I joined and learned about it and undoubtedly before that.
This sticky is from 2009.
Q & A With Tetra about Tetra SafeStart | Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle Forum | 58116

You don't have to read it. Just linking to show how popular it was back then

 

Thanks, Mac.
That certainly enlightens me on why many members across the Atlantic seem to have very different views on aquariums, fish-in vs fishless... it explains a lot.

 

If memory serves I was using the bottle in the early 80's..... But I could be off by a bit.

 

Thanks, Mac.
That certainly enlightens me on why many members across the Atlantic seem to have very different views on aquariums, fish-in vs fishless... it explains a lot.

Yeah, you're welcome. I agree. My observation as well.

 

Hi,
So you asked about fish-in cycling.
Many members come to Fishlore due to inappropriate advice from various sources, which ultimately results in fish-in cycling.

I was one of them, and thanks to the knowledge and advice of the members, my tank and inhabitants survived the cycling process. But knowing what I know now, I wish I could have avoided the suffering to the fishes.

Bottled bacteria will remain contentious, as some of them are snake oils, others actually work, but we have plenty of threads on FL about the various bottled bacteria.

Bottled bacteria costs more, granted, but better than letting innocent animals (possibly) die, and more so, the owner being stuck with a species they don't want, and limits their stocking options.

Done right, fishless cycling works, you just need patience. Since I joined FL, all setups have been fishless cycles, and not a single loss due to ammonia poisoning.

 

Feeder fish are also a great source for diseases and parasites in your brand new tank.

 

If memory serves I was using the bottle in the early 80's..... But I could be off by a bit.

I seem to remember adding a few drops of something and being told by the LFS to wait a couple days before adding FW fish.
And many did great. And some not so much.

 

Fishless cycling is literally the easiest thing in the world to do. The problem is that people can't keep their hands out of their tank and they get impatient thinking that there must be something else they can do.

If I were to make a fishless cycle guide it would go something like this.

1. Crank the heat up to 84F
2. Add ammonia
3. Walk away for 2 weeks
4. Test
5. Add ammonia and walk away for 3 days
6. Repeat 4 & 5 until you see nitrate.
7. When you see nitrate hit 20ppm add ammonia and start testing daily.
8. When it all converts in 24 hours your done.
9. Change water and add fish.
10. Become a Cycle Guru on Fishlore

 

Put a bunch of plants in there and wait two months, you're good to go.

 

2 weeks! that long??

(I'm just kidding... I think)

 

impatience kills more fish than overfeeding.

 

impatience kills more fish than overfeeding.

(why choose)

 

2 weeks! that long??

(I'm just kidding... I think)

Well if you want it to take longer be sure to change out your media a few times because there's always something better that you could be using.
Don't add any ammonia.
Dont use water conditioner.
Run a UV sterilizer.

 

Well if you want it to take longer be sure to change out your media a few times because there's always something better that you could be using.
Don't add any ammonia.
Dont use water conditioner.
Run a UV sterilizer.

Sorry folks, I really was kidding. The last 10 years or so I simply take out stuff from an established tank and use it for new aquascapes. Cycling has not been on my radar for a long time till I joined Fishlore... As I mentioned earlier; I should not have clicked on this thread. Please go on!

 

Sorry folks, I really was kidding. The last 10 years or so I simply take out stuff from an established tank and use it for new aquascapes. Cycling has not been on my radar for a long time till I joined Fishlore... As I mentioned earlier; I should not have clicked on this thread. Please go on!

No way....this is a valid topic.
This forum exists to help people thru these kinds of issues...and this is a valid issue.

It all boils down to impatience and improper expectations set when people want to start up a tank and they have purchased a bottle of magic potion that is supposed to instantly cycle their tank. Or they got bad info from the LFS.

 

My first tank was a 20 gallon and I did a fish-in. I used 6 blackskirts, and those are the hardiest fish I know, they were troopers through high ammonia and everything the tank did to them. Still alive and fighting for the first and last bites of food, always have been healthy. I didn't have a failure with the cycle but it was brutal and lasted 2 or 3 months. Had to add something to the tank to keep it from being toxic to the fish, and did so many water changes. Then I read here someplace those additives aren't good to use. I was in my lfs constantly asking questions. Then... it finally happened, no ammonia or nitrites, and good nitrates, almost like magic. Very S L O W magic! Now I keep extra small sponge filters in my tanks and use them to seed new smaller tanks, or when I started my 40 gallon, took half my HOB filter material from the 20 over to it and it was instant.

I don't think anything is easy, and I know there are failures, but maybe with live fish in there we really try harder not to kill them. Then the next challenge is adding only 2 or 3 fish at a time when you want to add 10!

 

Then the next challenge is adding only 2 or 3 fish at a time when you want to add 10!

Or are told you have to add at least six because they are shoaling fish and will not be happy.
It can be tough trying to put everything in perspective. In which case I will say fishless makes more sense. It eliminates the number of fish game.

 

No way....this is a valid topic.
This forum exists to help people thru these kinds of issues...and this is a valid issue.

It all boils down to impatience and improper expectations set when people want to start up a tank and they have purchased a bottle of magic potion that is supposed to instantly cycle their tank. Or they got bad info from the LFS.

Yes, agree. I think it is great that people such as (out of my head) mattgirl and stargirl, are willing to help newcomers with question regarding cycling.

 

Ok so what your all telling me is that when people start their fishless cycling. And than add fish and their fish die that’s because they changed to a fish in cycle. Nope they started a fishless and thought it was good to go. Those who start fish in change the water daily. So the tank cycles with fish waste. Yes I understand things are different overseas. But here in the states you can return the minnows when the cycle is done. Yes they do go right back into the feeder tank. Lots of good things going on overseas but no feeder fish or live bait?? Maybe a little to strict?
Still you never see the threads on failed fish in cycles. I think the fact the people succeed in this May say it’s a better way???

 

I suspect the 'live bacteria' in the bottles is a hit or miss thing. Who knows what the shelf life of this stuff is? Does it sit in freezing warehouses or on hot shelves? Are all brands equal? I will say i've only lost a few fish during cycles, most are more hardy than i thought. The good part is no matter how bad we screw up the modern cycles our tanks will eventually cycle themselves.

 

10. Become a Cycle Guru on Fishlore

I love your #10!

Maybe some of the Cycle Gurus here can answer this question:

Since tap water often has Chloramines (ammonia) couldn't one just skip the magic potions or live fish and simply do water changes every few days for a few weeks to cycle the tank? It seems to me like it should work. Of course those with access to media from an established tank could really speed this along.

 

I love your #10!

Maybe some of the Cycle Gurus here can answer this question:

Since tap water often has Chloramines (ammonia) couldn't one just skip the magic potions or live fish and simply do water changes every few days for a few weeks to cycle the tank? It seems to me like it should work. Of course those with access to media from an established tank could really speed this along.

Well sort of... the problem is that you cant really control the ammonia level that way.
Usually we depend on the bacteria that we have already established to handle that residual ammonia from the chloramine.

Depending fully on that as your ammonia source would lead to a very unstable cycle.

Great question!

 

Too many times folks think their fishless cycle is done. They have added their liquid ammonia or ammonium chloride. They are finally seeing 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and some nitrates. Then they add fish and are shocked to see the ammonia going up. At this point they have gone from a fishless cycle to a fish in. Granted it shouldn't take as long to do the fish in if the fishless has been done because some bacteria is already there but their fish are still living through the spikes.

If they had been adding some of the food they will eventually feed their fish along with the ammonia in a bottle they would not be going through a fish in cycle now. I know some folks say ammonia is ammonia no matter how we get it but adding fish food along with the liquid builds a stronger more natural cycle.

A fish in cycle will not fail. As I've said so many times, as long as there is an ammonia source a tank will cycle whether we are testing the water or not. A tank can be cycled without ever testing the water although I don't recommend someone new to the hobby doing so. Add fish, change half the water every other day for at least 6 weeks and in 99% of the cases the tank will be cycled and no fish will be lost. I say 99% because nothing can be 100% guaranteed. .

I love your #10!

Maybe some of the Cycle Gurus here can answer this question:

Since tap water often has Chloramines (ammonia) couldn't one just skip the magic potions or live fish and simply do water changes every few days for a few weeks to cycle the tank? It seems to me like it should work.

In most cases there isn't enough ammonia in the tap water to build a very strong colony of bacteria. It along with fish food might work for a very lightly stocked tank such as a single Betta. .

Of course those with access to media from an established tank could really speed this along.

This is the very best way to do it but most folks new to the hobby don't have this option. Once they have a fully established tank they should never have to go through the long drawn out process again though.

 

Carbon and phosphates are the 2 main reasons why adding fish flakes to a liquid ammonium fishless cycle is a fantastic idea. Those 2 elements promote bacteria growth and nitrification efficiency in nitrosomonas and nitrobacter.

With a fish-in cycle you are already adding this to the tank so its often overlooked.

 

May I add most bacterial "starters" are only used to keep ammonia and nitrite levels acceptable for fish being used in a fish in cycle. So to let the fish survive the period that natural bacteria populate the tank / filter and do the actual cycling.

Fish are only the producents of the needed ammonia to do so and the starters in fact to "replace" the unwanted waterchanges.

So bacterial starters are in fact "Liquid (Im)patience" or "Fish-in-cycle-fish-savers"

 

Or are told you have to add at least six because they are shoaling fish and will not be happy.
It can be tough trying to put everything in perspective. In which case I will say fishless makes more sense. It eliminates the number of fish game.

I'm still trying to figure out who discovered that fish can count to six.

 

I'm still trying to figure out who discovered that fish can count to six.

Fish: "5?.....unacceptable! We need 1 more to accomplish happiness."

 

Whether fish-in or fishless, I’m not convinced that there are as many truly failed cycles as we think there are.

As hard as we try to get ALL the information we need from folks who are experiencing “failed” cycles, I’m just not sure we always pull that off.

 

I'm still trying to figure out who discovered that fish can count to six.

Fish: "5?.....unacceptable! We need 1 more to accomplish happiness."

Hey hey stay on topic!!! We’ll talk about fish happiness later .

 

Hey hey stay on topic!!! We’ll talk about fish happiness later .

For more interesting discussion on the topic of fish happiness...visit this thread:

Thread 'Fish Happiness and Determining Levels' Fish Happiness and Determining Levels | Freshwater Aquarium Discussion Forum | 513232