High Ph, Soft Water?

For reference, my:
Ph: 8.4 in tap, 8.2-8.3 in tank
KH: 22 degrees
Gh: 2 from tap, use gh booster

I’ve always been concerned about my high ph, since petco told me my ph was what killed my first tank of fish (it was actually the cycle, or lack thereof), and am now very careful about acclimating new fish.

I thought high ph = hard water. When I got mystery snails, I discovered the importance of calcium and gh, and after buying the kit, tested the kh&gh. That’s when I started using a gh booster.

I’m curious to know what all these numbers actually affect. Fish all have ph ranges, and can be referred to as “soft” or “hardwater” fish, usually corresponding to low or high ph ranges, respectively. But I’ve also seen where gh is how you determine whether you have soft or hard water. Does kH have any bearing on this? Is it possible to actually have soft water and a high ph?

What I’m getting at is that I have had a male GBR for 6 months, and he seems healthy as ever. They are notorious for being sensitive, and liking soft water. But he seems very healthy in my high ph/kH, low gh tank. Does the gh have more affect on his health than the ph?

-Mak- a couple threads I saw you on today put this in my head. What are your thoughts? Anyone else with any input?

 

~pH is a scaled measure of the "Potential of Hydrogen" which measures the makeup of the hydrogen/hydroxyl ions in a solution (your tank/tap water).
~It is a logarithmic scale, meaning it goes by bases of 10. This is important since a pH of 6 is 10 times more acidic than a pH of 7, and is 100 times more acidic than a pH of 8 (and alkaline vice versa).
~All atoms are neutral (meaning number of protons equal number of electrons), however you can create an ion by messing with the number of electrons.
~Acids are positively ionically charged with H+. This means it is a cation (positive ion) with 1 proton an 0 electrons. A pH of 0 has 1 gram of Hydrogen ions per liter; since they go by base 10's that means a pH of 1 has 0.1 and a pH of 2 has 0.01
~Alkaline substances are negatively ionically charged with OH- (Hydroxide ions) if the solution is water, meaning it usually has more electrons than protons. Oxygen has 8 protons and Hydrogen has 1 proton for a total of 9. A pH of 14 has 1 gram of Hydroxide ions per liters; since they go by base 10's that means a pH of 13 has 0.1 and a pH of 12 has 0.01
~a "neutral pH" is 7 but still has some charge. Furthermore, this is why you are always told to have a temperature of 77F or 25C in the aquarium hobby, since only at this temperature it is neutral. at any other temperature, you start playing around with ions unless you specifically need a certain pH for some specific specie

 

. I literally failed science... (only once though, rest of the time I barely passed. All A’s everywhere else...)
Thank you very much for trying to explain that to me. It’s all in Greek, though, so I need to study that for a while...
But how does that all relate to my oddball gh/kH values, and what it (could) mean for my tank and fish?

 

~dGH or degree of General Hardness is simply a measure of calcium and magnesium in the water.
~Higher pH has a relationship with harder water (calcium, etc) since going back to the Periodic Table of Elements, the alkaline earth metals include beryllium, magnesium, calcium, strontium, barium, and radium. So calcium's innate alkalinity can swing pH higher, since then the water will be alkaline as well. However is the water is very acidic and there is not a lot of calcium, the calcium's effects could be nullified/overpowered. You might have heard about limestone and other sedimentary rocks ability to raise pH for you; that is because it is composed of calcium
~dKH or degree of Carbon Hardness is the measure of your water's alkalinity NOT how alkaline your water is. Alkaline deals with pH, remember from my first post/ this is alkalinity which is something way different. You know how people have carbon filters to neutralize things in the aquarium and that carbon could nullify any medication in the tank so if you have it, everyone tells you to remove it? That is because carbon has a property that neutralizes acids (which is basically all medication is). A higher dKH means that your water's own acidity (acid = low pH) will not change since it can buffer it for you. Conversely, a low dKH means that acids in medicine, or wherever can bully your pH down and bring it lower.
*I'm no GBR expert but you said they like soft water and that you have soft water so they should be fine but someone else with them should confirm.

 

Good thing I took Chemistry in college here's a very simple explanation.

kH (carbonate hardness) is measured by carbons in the water. High kH means high amounts of carbonate and bicarbonate anions, which results in high pH. This means kH determine the alkalinity of the water, not hardness.

gH (general hardness) is the measured by magnesium and calcium in the water. High gH means high amounts of dissolved magnesium and calcium, which results in hard water. So the measurement of gH determine soft or hard water, not pH.

Does kH have any bearing on this? Is it possible to actually have soft water and a high ph?

What I’m getting at is that I have had a male GBR for 6 months, and he seems healthy as ever. They are notorious for being sensitive, and liking soft water. But he seems very healthy in my high ph/kH, low gh tank. Does the gh have more affect on his health than the ph?

Let's talk about your Blue Ram. It's a soft water fish. Your tank has low gH, meaning your tank has soft water. Raise your Calcium and Magnesium fertilizers and you'll have a higher gH. So, yeah. GH has more effect on his health than kH, because kH doesn't mean soft or hard water.

Hope this helps?

 

andychrissytank I loved your scientific explanation. I think it's also important to mention that, although pH is indeed the measurement of the hydrogen ions, high amounts of it doesn't mean high pH. In fact the opposite is true. High amounts equate to low pH, as pH=-log[H+].

 

andychrissytank I loved your scientific explanation. I think it's also important to mention that, although pH is indeed the measurement of the hydrogen ions, high amounts of it doesn't mean high pH. In fact the opposite is true. High amounts equate to low pH, as pH=-log[H+].

Sorry for any misconceptions, I said:
~Acids are positively ionically charged with H+. This means it is a cation (positive ion) with 1 proton an 0 electrons. A pH of 0 has 1 gram of Hydrogen ions per liter; since they go by base 10's that means a pH of 1 has 0.1 and a pH of 2 has 0.01
~Alkaline substances are negatively ionically charged with OH- (Hydroxide ions) if the solution is water, meaning it usually has more electrons than protons. has 8 protons and Hydrogen has 1 proton for a total of 9. A pH of 14 has 1 gram of Hydroxide ions per liters; since they go by base 10's that means a pH of 13 has 0.1 and a pH of 12 has 0.01
Allow me to clarify:
pH is actually a measure of the Potential of Hydrogen, it doesn't measure hydrogen ions. If something has hydrogen ion's it is already an acid and can not have a pH greater than 7. Anything greater than 7 would have hydroxide ions. Therefore it is impossible for something to have both a high pH and have hydrogen ions, since it would be an acid, correct. A high pH would only mean there is some measure of hydroxide ions, not hydrogen ions

 

Good thing I took Chemistry in college here's a very simple explanation.

kH (carbonate hardness) is measured by carbons in the water. High kH means high amounts of carbonate and bicarbonate ions, which results in high pH. This means kH determine the alkalinity of the water, not hardness.

gH (general hardness) is the measured by magnesium and calcium in the water. High gH means high amounts of dissolved magnesium and calcium, which results in hard water. So the measurement of gH determine soft or hard water, not pH.



Let's talk about your Blue Ram. It's a soft water fish. Your tank has low gH, meaning your tank has soft water. Raise your Calcium and Magnesium fertilizers and you'll have a higher gH. So, yeah. GH has more effect on his health than kH, because kH doesn't mean soft or hard water.

Hope this helps?

That was exactly what I was looking for! I had started to kinda deduce that about the gh, hence the question, by learning little tidbits here and there. I just didn’t know how the kH & ph played into the whole picture of hard/soft water. And how that would apply to my rams and rummynose tetras.

I guess I shouldn’t keep my rams with my mystery snails...

 

Good thing I took Chemistry in college here's a very simple explanation.

kH (carbonate hardness) is measured by carbons in the water. High kH means high amounts of carbonate and bicarbonate ions, which results in high pH. This means kH determine the alkalinity of the water, not hardness.

gH (general hardness) is the measured by magnesium and calcium in the water. High gH means high amounts of dissolved magnesium and calcium, which results in hard water. So the measurement of gH determine soft or hard water, not pH.

I think this is the most simple yet elegant explanation of how all this stuff works I've ever seen! I could never have explained it so briefly and so well. Bravo Paradise fish!

 

I think this is the most simple yet elegant explanation of how all this stuff works I've ever seen! I could never have explained it so briefly and so well. Bravo Paradise fish!

I agree!! Great explanation.

AngelTheGypsy you can supplement calcium in their diet, instead of just in the water. That might be a happy medium for shell health. Oyster shell calcium in their Snell-O helps provide that extra calcium.

 

You could also add a small piece of algae covered limestone in there as well. They're mostly insoluble in high pH water and whatever else it does will be removed from weekly water changes.

 

andychrissytank, & Paradise fish, yall gave the best explanation I've gotten about this! Thanks AngelTheGypsy for asking this question! I've wondered about it too... just because I've got really soft, acidic water... although the ph from my tap does change every time I test it - I have a low KH & GH both 2°... I'm just a curious person that likes questions answered I guess and I wanted to understand it from all angles, if that makes sense? It helps me understand my own water, because I understand how yours works.

 

andychrissytank, & Paradise fish, yall gave the best explanation I've gotten about this! Thanks AngelTheGypsy for asking this question! I've wondered about it too... just because I've got really soft, acidic water... although the ph from my tap does change every time I test it - I have a low KH & GH both 2°... I'm just a curious person that likes questions answered I guess and I wanted to understand it from all angles, if that makes sense? It helps me understand my own water, because I understand how yours works.

Oh you won't believe just how much chemical compounds and scientific words I tried not to use in it :'D

Along with how gH and pH are related (because they are, to an extent) and how unstable pH is in both acidic and alkaline water depending on the time of day.

 

Also, a lot of things in the hobby are very generalized. Ph means this, hard water is this... Ever since the first time I tested gh and kH, I haven’t been able to make sense of it all together. I have a high ph, but is that due to my kH? No, my kH basically means my ph isn’t gonna change much. But for so many explanations, high ph=hard water. But my gh is minimal...so does that mean I have soft water? Or do the minerals associated with kH also make water “hard?” That’s kinda how I came to this question.
I had gleaned enough tidbits here and there, but needed (in plain, non scientific jargon language) clarification.
There’s still a lot more to know and learn, but I pick it up bit by bit. Maybe in a few decades I’ll have a pretty good understanding...

 

Even I thought high pH was harder water. Now all the numerous comments, questions etc of many members with fish stress and deaths start making sense to me.

This thing goes in my permanent bookmarks for sure.