High Ph And Ammonia In Water

I’m really needing advice on what to do if I have a high pH and ammonia in my tap water. I have 2 tanks I’m currently trying to get cycled, a 10 gallon with a single betta and a 29 gallon that is empty. Please advise!

 

I’m really needing advice on what to do if I have a high pH and ammonia in my tap water. I have 2 tanks I’m currently trying to get cycled, a 10 gallon with a single betta and a 29 gallon that is empty. Please advise!

Hello alex...

This isn't a problem if you add some stems of an aquatic floating plant like Hornwort, Water sprite, or Elodea (Anacharis). These are typically available at the local fish store. Floating plants help steady the water chemistry. You can also use inexpensive filter media. Acurel and HBH are companies that carry this product and it will help too.

Old

 

You need to first battle with the ammonia... what is it coming out of your tap?
You can treat it with things like prime (depending on how much we are talking about here) and there are a multitude of ways around it... using a different water source for water changes... but if it’s just a slight amount the prime (which you have to add anyway to dechlorinate it will detoxify ammonia by binding it but only for 24-48 hours)
And what is considered high PH? It also depends on what you are going to put in the tank... some fish like a really high ph... and most fish can adjust to ph levels as long as it’s not crazy.... you have to be careful using the products to lower ph because ph swings are much more dangerous than keeping it at a constant... mine comes out of the tap at 7.8 and I have never had a problem.. even with fish that require a lower ph (as long as it’s not too extreme) Also things like adding driftwood can lower your tank PH (a higher ph won't affect your cycle, only low ph can stall it, again unless we are talking about extremes here)
With the ammonia I wouldn’t worry about it too much during cycling because you need it in there anyway to keep your cycle going... but if it’s crazy high I would be very careful of adding any extra ammonia...
also you need to find out if it’s free ammonia or ammonium... big difference and you won’t be able to tell until you get a test (I use the one made by seachem) that can separate and tell the difference... if you are using the apI kit or dip sticks you won’t know what it is...
But specific numbers would help much more in providing advice...

 

The right side is my tap water, left side is my tank water (10g with betta) right after an over 50% water change, I do have prime and also stability. I’ve been dosing with prime. My pH is 8.2

 

With a pH of 8.2 all of the ammonia in the tank is ammonia, none would have converted to ammonium. But as mentioned all but the most sensitive fish will adapt to any pH between 6.0 and 8.5.

I can't tell from the photo, what the ppm of the ammonia is in the two test tubes. But if it is under 1ppm Prime will detox it fully for 24 hours. Once your tank is cycled, it should be able to process the ammonia in your tap within 24 hours, so your fish will always be safe from exposure if you use Prime.

 

Agree with the post above HOWEVER please be aware that although prime will detox ammonia and nitrites... since you are using the API kit it will NOT show that... your tubes will remain green.... the test can’t tell the difference between the ammonia and ammonium so it just gives a combined result... so don’t just keep adding it... like the above mentioned if under 1ppm it will be detoxified for 24 hours (same with nitrite) but the test will show a false positive... hope that makes sense

 

With a of 8.2 all of the in the tank is ammonia, none would have converted to .

It actually takes a highly alkaline solution to shift the ammonia-ammonium equilibrium into favouring free/un-ionised ammonia (NH3): at a pH of 8, about 10% is free ammonia; at a pH of 9, ~50% is free ammonia.

My is 8.2

A 0.5 ppm ammonia concentration for your tap water is quite fine. Adding Seachem Prime will assist in binding ammonia into a less toxic form (ammonium) for ~24-48 hours and will allow your beneficial bacteria time to oxidise it.

In addition, your pH is quite fine. In reality, tank water tends to go acidic over time: nitrification, respiration of CO2 by plants and fish, sulfide oxidation and methane fermentation all acidify tank water.

 

With a pH of 8.2 all of the ammonia in the tank is ammonia, none would have converted to ammonium. But as mentioned all but the most sensitive fish will adapt to any pH between 6.0 and 8.5.

I can't tell from the photo, what the ppm of the ammonia is in the two test tubes. But if it is under 1ppm Prime will detox it fully for 24 hours. Once your tank is cycled, it should be able to process the ammonia in your tap within 24 hours, so your fish will always be safe from exposure if you use Prime.

I know it defies all scientific logic but depending on how and what he is using for cycling somehow that’s not always true....
I use dr Tim’s one and only... it raised my tank to 8.2 ph (so technically should all be ammonia or mostly right) well I did about 5 tests because I didn’t believe it... even went to my lfs and bought a new kit... (using seachem test that has the little circles that turn yellow or blue or green) but even though with that ph and ammonia of 1ppm ALL of it was ammonium... not a drop of free ammonia.... like I said I repeated the test and repeated the test because I couldn’t believe it... I’m assuming it has something to do with whatever is in his one and only... but the ammonium test came out nearly exactly at 1ppm and the free ammonia was 0... I even had other people do it and follow the instructions... and I hadn’t used a drop of prime in that tank ever (I have no chlorine or chloramines in my water, well water, and that was determined by an actual laboratory test when I was getting a softener and pipes replaced a while back.... so for some reason it doesn’t ALWAYS have to be the case... even though scientifically I do agree with you lol Hence why I repeated the test so many times (and one kit was bought from amazon and the other from my lfs and both were not expired until 2021....) odd... very odd... but true lol
So I don’t know if he’s added TSS or one and only but it’s possible it is ammonium if he has...
That’s why I recommended getting the seachem test that can differentiate rather then the api

 

but even though with that ph and ammonia of 1ppm ALL of it was ammonium

It's all a bit of guesstimation, but most species of ammonia-oxidising bacteria (Nitrosomonas, Nitrosospira) are more easily able to oxidise free ammonia (NH3) than ammonium (NH4+). It may have been the situation that these bacteria were more-or-less just siphoning off the free ammonia whenever the NH3/NH4+ equilibrium adjusted itself.

But you're right that a lot of chemical additives (not just Dr Tim's One & Only, but also Tetra SS and Seachem Stability) tend to react strangely with testing kits.

 

And I’ll be honest since it was just ammonium and not ammonia (that cycle seemed to take forever and it was for our 2 Axolotls (now 3 lol they are addicting little critters) and because there was no ammonia, I finally just said ok go ahead and put them in and if they levels get really bad we will take them out... next day not a trace of anything left (the nitrites had already gone to 0 prior to this we just couldn’t get that **** ammonia to turn yellow... next day all parameters were at 0 and we had been waiting for that 1ppm to go away for like a week... even did small water changes with no decrease at all.... so I don’t know what happened or if it was just coincidence but they are all happy in their new home now

 

I know it defies all scientific logic but depending on how and what he is using for cycling somehow that’s not always true....
I use dr Tim’s one and only... it raised my tank to 8.2 ph (so technically should all be ammonia or mostly right) well I did about 5 tests because I didn’t believe it... even went to my lfs and bought a new kit... (using seachem test that has the little circles that turn yellow or blue or green) but even though with that ph and ammonia of 1ppm ALL of it was ammonium... not a drop of free ammonia.... like I said I repeated the test and repeated the test because I couldn’t believe it... I’m assuming it has something to do with whatever is in his one and only... but the ammonium test came out nearly exactly at 1ppm and the free ammonia was 0... I even had other people do it and follow the instructions... and I hadn’t used a drop of prime in that tank ever (I have no chlorine or chloramines in my water, well water, and that was determined by an actual laboratory test when I was getting a softener and pipes replaced a while back.... so for some reason it doesn’t ALWAYS have to be the case... even though scientifically I do agree with you lol Hence why I repeated the test so many times (and one kit was bought from amazon and the other from my lfs and both were not expired until 2021....) odd... very odd... but true lol
So I don’t know if he’s added TSS or one and only but it’s possible it is ammonium if he has...
That’s why I recommended getting the seachem test that can differentiate rather then the api

I don't know enough about chemistry to know if this makes a difference, but note that Dr TI'm does not provide ammonia, he provides ammonium chloride. So I do not know whether ammonium chloride behaves the same was that ammonia does at various pH levels (and temperatures)

 

So I do not know whether ammonium chloride behaves the same was that ammonia does at various pH levels (and temperatures)

It does. Ammonium chloride ionises in water to form NH4+ (and Cl-). The aqueous ammonia solution sold by Ace Hardware comprises NH4+ (and OH-).

 

Then with a pH of 8.2 there should definitely be ammonia in the water. And if not, then why would anyone worry about ammonia at all in their tank unless it was over 1ppm?

 

Like I said I agree with you guys but by the test (and also the seachem free ammonia detector, I forgot to mention we had that hooked up) it showed as all ammonium... everyone ans eveytime we repeated the test... like I said used different test kits etc and that dot stayed completely yellow on both sides the whole time and when we did the total ammonia it showed as 1ppm and that’s exactly what the apI was showing... I know it’s weird and makes no sense but it happened... actually I have had 3 differwnt tanks lately that I’ve cycled with his one and only and every time the ph goes up to 8.3ish.... then as soon as it’s cycled it stays at the 7.5... also these were 3 very different tanks... 1- was for Axolotls... had sand substrate and driftwood and decor
2- was a 26 g bow front with pebbles (not gravel) and decor and such
3- was a 50 gallon with gravel substrate, decor and driftwood
So each very different and all used the exact same faucet and water source...
like I said I agree that it makes no sense... the only thing that the 3 have in common was that one and only was added...

 

one and only

It's worth noting that while Dr Tim's Ammonium Chloride Solution has (you guessed it) ammonium chloride, I'm not sure if Dr Tim's One and Only bottled bacteria contains NH4Cl. Because the pH rises, it leads me to suspect that it might contain aqueous ammonia as it generally has an alkaline effect on tank water (while NH4Cl is slightly acidic when dissolved).

Then with a pH of 8.2 there should definitely be ammonia in the water. And if not, then why would anyone worry about ammonia at all in their tank unless it was over 1ppm?

I'd chalk this up to one of the "mysteries of the hobby": I agree, at a pH of 8.2, there should've been some free ammonia detectable if ammonium tested at 1 ppm. As for why it didn't, I haven't the faintest informed idea.

 

Yes I would normally agree that it’s one of those mysteries however 3 different tanks with all different substrates and sizes... yet all the same result... I’ve just determined it has to be something in the one and only lol

 

I collected some more data: at a pH of 8.2 and a temperature of 27.5 degrees Celsius (81.5 degrees Fahrenheit), a 1 mg/L solution of aqueous ammonia (NH3 + NH4+) comprises 0.0970 mg/L free ammonia (NH3) and 0.903 mg/L ammonium (NH4+).

0.0970 mg/L free ammonia is slightly above the detection rate for Seachem's test (0.05 mg/L).

While it could be that ammonia-oxidising bacteria are expressing a preference for the (more-or-less) immediate oxidation of this minute concentration of free ammonia (over ammonium), I'm going to hedge my bets and say it's more likely unreliability of testing in uncontrolled conditions, especially in relation to very small quantities.

All the hobbyist test kits experience the same issues in relation to reliability and consistency as the end-users (i.e. us) are hobbyists testing in uncontrolled conditions.

then why would anyone worry about ammonia at all in their tank unless it was over 1ppm?

Touching back on this point you've raised (which I think is something quite worth thinking about): even if the concentration of free ammonia is quite low at a given concentration of total ammonia (NH3 + NH4+) and at a given pH that might be found in home aquariums, I still think it's worth being concerned about the toxicity, especially over prolonged exposure.

As an example, de Oliveira (2008) determined that a total ammonia (NH3 + NH4+) concentration of 1.4 ppm resulted in a 2% mortality rate amongst cardinal tetra across a 96 hour period. According to their test parameters, 1.4 ppm total ammonia comprises 0.032 ppm free ammonia. That's just 12.11 mL of free ammonia in a 100 gallon tank. Note that this concentration of free ammonia would also be undetectable by Seachem's test kit, while the ammonium concentration would register at 1.368 ppm.

So it takes very little free ammonia not a very long time to start killing fish.