High nitrates, but water changes don't help...

I have a 55G tank with plants and a bunch of shrimp and fish. All my water values were always stable, but I had to put in some Nitrofurazone and API Pimafix (separately, about a week apart) to try to fix some cotton mouth on a few of my neon tetras.


Now I constantly have high nitrate values between 40-80ppm. I did a 25% water change today, another one 3 days ago, and also after pimafix, and the nitrofurazone. I never go longer than 2-3 weeks and I change 20% or so each time.

Any ideas why this is going on?

My ammonia is 0ppm, my nitrites are 0ppm, nitrates between 40-80ppm (the color is somewhere inbetween. I can't really tell if its one or the other). Temp is 78F, tank has been setup for about 8-12 months. Fluval 307 canister filter. Fish are mostly small rasboras, 8 neon tetras, 6 x ray fish, 8 guppies, and about 8 glofish tetras. Nothing new has been put in the tank other than a breeding mop (pic here: https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/JCUAAOSwDQJiSQba/s-l1600.jpg ) and no new fish have been added for a long time. No plants either

The only thing I can think of is I cleaned half the sponges in my canister filter with water, but I put Prime in it, so it didn't have cholorine.
I also tried adding an additional dose of prime into the water to try to reduce the nitrates, but it didn't do anything.

 

Have you tested your tap water for nitrates? You may have them in there so could be adding them back into the tank each time you do a water change. Might also consider upping your water changes to 50% weekly to try and make a dent in your levels and keep them controlled.

 

Welcome to Fishlore!

If you are only changing 20% every 2-3 weeks that is probably why it is high. It will keep climbing not going down because the fish are still pooping every day.

If you change 20% you still have 80% remaining. When Nitrates are high bigger water changes are necessary. Think of it like a smoky room. You remove 20% its still going to be pretty smoky right?

Try to keep the test to Orange (light orange is best) and you will be Ok. Red is a warning flag to do a big water change.

 

I have high Nitrate and Nitrite and I did 50% water change twice, still near no change. I used reverse osmosis water from my drinking water filter.

 

I have high Nitrate and Nitrite and I did 50% water change twice, still near no change. I used reverse osmosis water from my drinking water filter.

What exactly is your nitrite and nitrate, what about ammonia, how long has the tank been running and are there fish in the tank?

 

It probably isnt helping because your nitrate is above what the test reads. Keep doing big water changes it will go down.

Did you check your tap water? If you use the RO water from your filter you will have to replace the minerals in it for fish and plants.

 

1. if the nitrates are high, and you do 20% water changes, they go down by 20%. if you do a 25% change on a 55g, you change about 13 gallons of water. if you do this every 2-3 weeks, you change a quarter to half the water per month.and remove a quarter to half of the nitrates per month... BUT are you removing what you are building up in that time period and more? because if you aren't, it's just stacking up.

2. if you don't vacuum out the substrate to get solids out, those solids break down, proteins, carbs, sugars, uneaten food and fish waste solids, get consumed by heterotrophic bacteria and turned into ammonia which becomes nitrates in the water as the end product from your autotrophic bacteria, as well as the ammonia from the waste and food itself the autotrophs can break down immediately. The more build up you have, the more rise you'll get as the build up continues and breaks down, and yes, you can get nitrate rise that outweighs your water changes removal that used to work to lower nitrates, it no longer is enough and you either have to do more water changes and bigger, or get rid of the junk built up in the substrate.

the likely cause of the "cottonmouth" is the hetertrophic bacteria in the tank, doing its thing, and a nick from eating or a bump into something starts getting bacterial infection, can't heal and white fuzz. Generally the acidic water is ok for neons, but not the bacteria. basically the bacteria is working to break down the live fish at that point. Treatments can work, better to have cleaner water and you don't need the treatments.

This junk buildup can be under rocks and hardscapes people don't really want to mess with or feel they cant mess with, or people that just don't clean the substrate out at all. either way it builds up and slowly gets broken down, and the more waste that builds the more it backlogs and piles up and releases when it does break down.

With neons you have to remove this waste, but in a manner you don't drastically change the water parameters because they will struggle to adjust, instead do it slowly over time. start doing a daily 10%, about 5 gallons, and vacuum some part of the substrate doing it to reduce the buildup there also. eventually getting to the whole tank bottom. once you have parameters back in line, you can do bigger water changes with no real effect to the neons.

it's much better to do 5 gallon water changes every day with a light vacuum, than to do a 35 gallon change once a week for water parameter stability reasons. Waiting 2-3 weeks might work when you start a tank and everything is low but, it doesn't work 6 months to a year later when waste has had time to build up and the long duration between cleanings allows the waste to settle in deep in the substrate.

 

To remove the buildup and to restore any cycle issues from medications, I would start of by doing 50% daily water change until nitrates are under 20ppm, then move to once a week when you can keep it there and then to either smaller weekly ones or bi weekly 50%. And do vacuuming at least weekly for now. If you have heavily planted tank you can vacuum less after everything is stabilised

 

Thanks both!

What exactly is your nitrite and nitrate, what about ammonia, how long has the tank been running and are there fish in the tank?

The tank is pretty old. At least six months, it has fish and it is over populated. I used to have a power head and just over the top poly media and the fish survived.

I did the dreaded mistake of getting a new EHEIM canister and let both run for about a day and thought this would be enough for the bacteria to move to the new filter. There is also a ship ornament in there so I thought worse case scenario the ship has the bacteria. Even worse I got rid of the previous powerhead that had air pump and thought water inflow from the new filter will agitate the surface enough to give in the oxygen. This does not seem to be the case as my fish are all on surface trying to breathe.

I got an all test kit but has no ammonia test. Nitrite+Nitrate are at the end of the harmful spectrum. PH is very low.

I am trying to rescue the aquarium. I did about 3 50% water changes, added 2 plants, Easy-Life water conditioner, lifted the inflow up the surface so it is like waterfall, vacuumed the ground, added liquid fertilizer, and added Easy-Life early start bacteria. I am waiting for new larger aquarium which is 26G (current is around 13G, hopefully its large enough not to be over populated -6 half hand palm size and 4 half a finger fishes).

My big problem is that I have 2 catfish about finger longer that poop a lot! they poop about half table spoon a day so in a week you got like 4 tea spoons of poop flying in there.

It probably isnt helping because your nitrate is above what the test reads. Keep doing big water changes it will go down.

Did you check your tap water? If you use the RO water from your filter you will have to replace the minerals in it for fish and plants.

I have no way to add minerals. I am not in the USA and the tap water is extremely treated and hard. I will be using Pristine from Secham as filling the tank with slow RO filter is getting frustrating.

 

Thanks both!


The tank is pretty old. At least six months, it has fish and it is over populated. I used to have a power head and just over the top poly media and the fish survived.

I did the dreaded mistake of getting a new EHEIM canister and let both run for about a day and thought this would be enough for the bacteria to move to the new filter. There is also a ship ornament in there so I thought worse case scenario the ship has the bacteria. Even worse I got rid of the previous powerhead that had air pump and thought water inflow from the new filter will agitate the surface enough to give in the oxygen. This does not seem to be the case as my fish are all on surface trying to breathe.

I got an all test kit but has no ammonia test. Nitrite+Nitrate are at the end of the harmful spectrum. PH is very low.

I am trying to rescue the aquarium. I did about 3 50% water changes, added 2 plants, Easy-Life water conditioner, lifted the inflow up the surface so it is like waterfall, vacuumed the ground, added fertilizer, and added Easy-Life early start bacteria. I am waiting for new larger aquarium which is 26G (current is around 13G, hopefully its large enough not to be over populated -10 larger fishes).

My big problem is that I have 2 catfish about finger longer that poop a lot! they poop about half table spoon a day so in a week you got like 4 tea spoons of poop flying in there.



I have no way to add minerals. I am not in the USA and the tap water is extremely treated and hard. I will be using Pristine from Secham as filling the tank with slow RO filter is getting frustrating.

Can you get seachem equilibrium? If you are not using RO I guess it dont matter. What are you going to use then?

 

Thanks both!


The tank is pretty old. At least six months, it has fish and it is over populated. I used to have a power head and just over the top poly media and the fish survived.

I did the dreaded mistake of getting a new EHEIM canister and let both run for about a day and thought this would be enough for the bacteria to move to the new filter. There is also a ship ornament in there so I thought worse case scenario the ship has the bacteria. Even worse I got rid of the previous powerhead that had air pump and thought water inflow from the new filter will agitate the surface enough to give in the oxygen. This does not seem to be the case as my fish are all on surface trying to breathe.

I got an all test kit but has no ammonia test. Nitrite+Nitrate are at the end of the harmful spectrum. PH is very low.

I am trying to rescue the aquarium. I did about 3 50% water changes, added 2 plants, Easy-Life water conditioner, lifted the inflow up the surface so it is like waterfall, vacuumed the ground, added liquid fertilizer, and added Easy-Life early start bacteria. I am waiting for new larger aquarium which is 26G (current is around 13G, hopefully its large enough not to be over populated -6 half hand palm size and 4 half a finger fishes).

My big problem is that I have 2 catfish about finger longer that poop a lot! they poop about half table spoon a day so in a week you got like 4 tea spoons of poop flying in there.



I have no way to add minerals. I am not in the USA and the tap water is extremely treated and hard. I will be using Pristine from Secham as filling the tank with slow RO filter is getting frustrating.

Going to be difficult. you have too much fish for the tank and you are stuck in a position for a fish in cycle.

for your "extremely treated and hard water" you need to know the GH KH and pH of it, and you cut it with your RO water, 10part RO/1part tap, 5/5, 3/7, whatever mix gets you were you want to be, it's the best way to work with what you got and not supplementing, If dKH is 0 you'd need to supplement for that carbonates for a stable pH, 2 or 3 dKH is enough for a stable pH though. If your GH is high, cutting with RO which is 0/0/ and near pH7, should get you into a reasonable place instead of so high. Like if it's 30dGH, cutting with RO at a 5/5 ratio with the tap water should bring it to 15dGH and that's good enough.
I would suggest you surrender the fish to a local fish store or a friend that keeps fish, any thing to get them out of the situation and possible death, but, if that isn't an option then, here's what I know about fish in cycling.


I suggest you get an ammonia test kit asap, if you have an ammonia test, you can see what's happening with it and it's just more comfortable knowing it's safe or knowing it's getting dangerous before the fish show you it's bad, and knowing you need to do a change. But without one, and no Seachem Prime as a safety net, resign yourself to a 50% daily water change, and monitor the fish if they are huffing or puffing, or at the surface gasping, do a 50% water change, if they act anything less than normal, do a 50% water change.

if you have Prime, a standard dose is 2 drops per gallon, you should double dose the tank to start, 4 drops per gallonof water in the tank.
Then with each daily 50% water change, re-double dose just for the new water added, not the whole tank. .

This is how I fish in cycle. The Prime does turn Ammonia to ammonium, and it's non-toxic for 24-48 hours. A daily water change and refresh of 50% ensures you are covered up to 1ppm at all times, and some times up to 2ppm Ammonia. the water change of 50% (this is based on 1 fish per 10 gallons of water for cycling) Should keep the ammonia right around 0.25ppm at all times or less and if it sneaks up on you you have the safety net of the prime.

I do not know how that's gonna work with more fish producing more ammonia. But way back in the late 1980s doing it with no ammonia tests and no prime, the method was, "50% water change daily, if you see the fish stressing not acting normal, do a 50% water change at that time, and when in doubt, do an additional 50% water change just to be safe". once you see where it becomes a problem during 24 hour cycles, then you resign yourself to 1x, 2x,3x,4x daily 50% water changes until the cycle is complete (4-6 weeks). this should bounce the Ammonia between less than 0.25 and 0.50 but again the amount of fish here is the variable. I don't know how much you'll need to do, I do know it will get easier as the weeks pass, the cycle won't be up to total speed, but it will start doing something after the first week and get stronger each week after and the water changes will get easier and less frequent. Still either need to test or monitor the fish for signs of problems, but by week 3 you can start resting easier.

Now you can slack on this, you'll probably lose fish if you do. If you intend to not lose any fish, then you have to really stay on top of it, and monitor the fish.

And again I say, probably best to surrender the fish if possible, and one less thing you have to worry about.

 

I have high Nitrate and Nitrite and I did 50% water change twice, still near no change. I used reverse osmosis water from my drinking water filter.

When doing water changes with RO water, are you adding minerals to maintain water hardness. It is acceptable to use RO water to replace water lost to evaporation, but if you keep doing water changes with RO water without adding minerals, the mineral content may eventually get to the point that fish and plants will die. They need calcium, magnesium, iron, potassium and other minerals that are normally found in tap water, but are either not found in RO water or will be at only trace levels at best.

Nitrates keep getting replenished as you feed your fish, they excrete wastes and the wastes are processed by the microorganisms in the water. There will be some minerals provided from the food, but not enough,

I use Seachem Equilibrium to maintain water hardness (GH) and use buffers to maintain alkalinity (KH). There are other products such as Salty Shrimp GH/KH that claim to provide both.

 

Can you get seachem equilibrium? If you are not using RO I guess it dont matter. What are you going to use then?

Going to be difficult. you have too much fish for the tank and you are stuck in a position for a fish in cycle.

for your "extremely treated and hard water" you need to know the GH KH and pH of it, and you cut it with your RO water, 10part RO/1part tap, 5/5, 3/7, whatever mix gets you were you want to be, it's the best way to work with what you got and not supplementing, If dKH is 0 you'd need to supplement for that carbonates for a stable pH, 2 or 3 dKH is enough for a stable pH though. If your GH is high, cutting with RO which is 0/0/ and near pH7, should get you into a reasonable place instead of so high. Like if it's 30dGH, cutting with RO at a 5/5 ratio with the tap water should bring it to 15dGH and that's good enough.
I would suggest you surrender the fish to a local fish store or a friend that keeps fish, any thing to get them out of the situation and possible death, but, if that isn't an option then, here's what I know about fish in cycling.


I suggest you get an ammonia test kit asap, if you have an ammonia test, you can see what's happening with it and it's just more comfortable knowing it's safe or knowing it's getting dangerous before the fish show you it's bad, and knowing you need to do a change. But without one, and no Seachem Prime as a safety net, resign yourself to a 50% daily water change, and monitor the fish if they are huffing or puffing, or at the surface gasping, do a 50% water change, if they act anything less than normal, do a 50% water change.

if you have Prime, a standard dose is 2 drops per gallon, you should double dose the tank to start, 4 drops per gallonof water in the tank.
Then with each daily 50% water change, re-double dose just for the new water added, not the whole tank. .

This is how I fish in cycle. The Prime does turn Ammonia to ammonium, and it's non-toxic for 24-48 hours. A daily water change and refresh of 50% ensures you are covered up to 1ppm at all times, and some times up to 2ppm Ammonia. the water change of 50% (this is based on 1 fish per 10 gallons of water for cycling) Should keep the ammonia right around 0.25ppm at all times or less and if it sneaks up on you you have the safety net of the prime.

I do not know how that's gonna work with more fish producing more ammonia. But way back in the late 1980s doing it with no ammonia tests and no prime, the method was, "50% water change daily, if you see the fish stressing not acting normal, do a 50% water change at that time, and when in doubt, do an additional 50% water change just to be safe". once you see where it becomes a problem during 24 hour cycles, then you resign yourself to 1x, 2x,3x,4x daily 50% water changes until the cycle is complete (4-6 weeks). this should bounce the Ammonia between less than 0.25 and 0.50 but again the amount of fish here is the variable. I don't know how much you'll need to do, I do know it will get easier as the weeks pass, the cycle won't be up to total speed, but it will start doing something after the first week and get stronger each week after and the water changes will get easier and less frequent. Still either need to test or monitor the fish for signs of problems, but by week 3 you can start resting easier.

Now you can slack on this, you'll probably lose fish if you do. If you intend to not lose any fish, then you have to really stay on top of it, and monitor the fish.

And again I say, probably best to surrender the fish if possible, and one less thing you have to worry about.

When doing water changes with RO water, are you adding minerals to maintain water hardness. It is acceptable to use RO water to replace water lost to evaporation, but if you keep doing water changes with RO water without adding minerals, the mineral content may eventually get to the point that fish and plants will die. They need calcium, magnesium, iron, potassium and other minerals that are normally found in tap water, but are either not found in RO water or will be at only trace levels at best.

Nitrates keep getting replenished as you feed your fish, they excrete wastes and the wastes are processed by the microorganisms in the water. There will be some minerals provided from the food, but not enough,

I use Seachem Equilibrium to maintain water hardness (GH) and use buffers to maintain alkalinity (KH). There are other products such as Salty Shrimp GH/KH that claim to provide both.

Thanks everyone for the helpful tips! I will work by them and see where it goes. I will use tap water with Prime.

In complete honesty for the longest part I just had a powerhead and poly as media and the fish survived. My only metric of how bad the condition is , is the colour of the water that got yellow and brown a lot not to mention previous algae breakouts.

Sometimes I wonder if the nitrite and nitrate cycle really affect fish that much my fish survived a long time and they seem just fine. I never monitored water parameters, basically added water and fish and switched on the powerhead filter.

 

Thanks everyone for the helpful tips! I will work by them and see where it goes. I will use tap water with Prime.

In complete honesty for the longest part I just had a powerhead and poly as media and the fish survived. My only metric of how bad the condition is , is the colour of the water that got yellow and brown a lot not to mention previous algae breakouts.

Sometimes I wonder if the nitrite and nitrate cycle really affect fish that much my fish survived a long time and they seem just fine. I never monitored water parameters, basically added water and fish and switched on the powerhead filter.

Unless you are intentionally trying to run a blackwater aquarium with a high level of organic acids, discolored water and algae breakouts are an indication that something is not right with your aquarium.

We cannot tell you what is wrong without your testing water parameters and providing the results. Then the community can help you resolve the problem.