Here we go again! Dirted 29 setup

Eight months after our little ten gallon ended in a puddle of dreams and hopes on the floor (though almost all livestock were saved and returned to the LFS), and following months of pleading, begging, and good-husbandry, I have obtained permission from my better half to set up a 29 gallon in the living room.

This will be a dirted tank like the last one. An organic potting soil for the dirt capped by play sand (unless anyone wants to talk me out of the play sand and into pool filter sand?). I was pleased with the last dirted tank pre-spill. In particular, I tried to follow a useful online article I read and planted from the get-go to try to suck nutrients from the water and prevent an algal bloom. Whether this was the reason or not (see more below) I had ZERO observable algae in the tank for the five months it was running, a first for me. So an effort to try the same moderate-heavy plant load from the get-go once again has led to this:




All plants were purchased the past couple of days, just floating them in the tank for now while testing it for leaks; will drain and then dirt it tomorrow or Wednesday.

Did I mention I am a cost conscious grad student? Most of the plants in there, were purchased for $10 from another grad student who studies aquarium plants. Ha! I also bought a few others from a couple of stores.

In terms of hardware, the light is a Nicrew ClassicLED Plus. A Marineland Penguin Bio-wheel 150 GPH hang-on-back is coming tomorrow. I'm up in the air about a heater--current plan is to not purchase one. But see questions below.

There are three primary goals of the tank: 1. create an environment that promotes health for the fish in it; 2. create a visually pleasing tank (will probably largely fail at this) but also a tank with lots of nooks and crannies--I like having a tank in which one has to search for a while in order to find everything; 3. create a low maintenance, relatively 'self-sustaining' ecosystem. As such, I am planning on a low stocking load at present. Perhaps 10-12 small fish and Neocaridina shrimp. I have hard water, and so I have been planning on White Clouds for the fish. But certainly open to suggestions--others I have been thinking of include Emerald Dwarf Rasboras, Celestial Pearl Danios (some sources say OK in hard water), and some of the hard water dwarf rainbows. I really like Endlers, but I don't want to have a population explosion (and not sure I'm down with an all-male tank). Obviously some of the White Cloud alternatives would require a heater.

I do have a few questions if anyone has ideas (answers to even one appreciated):

1. What does everyone think of wintertime lows of about 66-68 in terms of amazon sword and wisteria survival and growth? Most accounts I read online seem to suggest these would be OK at lower temps as long as not super low? (again, wondering about whether I need a heater or not)
2. Am I correct that for a dirted tank I do not need to dose ammonia or fish food for a fishless cycle? I.e. that decaying organic matter will provide all the ammonia I need? If this is right, I assume that I still need to conduct frequent water changes to ensure that the ammonia doesn't get high enough to harm the plants?
3. I have been thinking about why it was that my last aquarium had zero visible algae. One theory, as written above, is that plant growth accomplished this. But in hindsight there really weren't that many plants in the tank. The other theory would be that a beginner's 'mistake' I made in terms of filtration was the reason for the algae success: when I set up that tank I had been watching a lot of youtube videos from fishtubers who talked about stuffing their filters full of biomedia. I erroneously thought that this meant activated carbon filter cartridges, and so stuffed two activated carbon filter cartridges into the hang-on-back. I ran the tank with these in it for nearly three months until I realized that this was not what these youtubers meant by biomedia. But I am now wondering if in doing so I chemically filtered out most of the nutrients from the water, thus preventing algae growth? I am half thinking of starting the tank with sponge media only in the filter and trying to stunt algae growth with plant growth first, but still keeping two cartridges on hand in case the algae gets going and then trying to repeat my 'experiment' if necessary--does this whole theory/plan of using activated carbon to combat algae make any sense at all?

Any other thoughts are also much appreciated. Will post more updates as I go along, and look forward to sharing!

 

Not sure on the temperature limits for those plants. I keep them both, but always above 70°F.

In a dirted tank, you may or may not get an ammonia spike from your soil. I've done a couple dirted tanks and I never measured an ammonia spike in them until I added ammonia myself. I wouldn't count on the tank producing enough ammonia to cycle itself. But it might.

I supplemented my soil with bonemeal for some added nutrition. Maybe that's not necessary, but its something you could consider.

I like white clouds, and highly recommend them. I keep a school of 12 in the only "upstairs tank" in the house. They're great little fish, and cheap.

I'd be interested to hear how your activated carbon experiment turns out.

 

Eight months after our little ten gallon ended in a puddle of dreams and hopes on the floor (though almost all livestock were saved and returned to the LFS), and following months of pleading, begging, and good-husbandry, I have obtained permission from my better half to set up a 29 gallon in the living room.

This will be a dirted tank like the last one. An organic potting soil for the dirt capped by play sand (unless anyone wants to talk me out of the play sand and into pool filter sand?). I was pleased with the last dirted tank pre-spill. In particular, I tried to follow a useful online article I read and planted from the get-go to try to suck nutrients from the water and prevent an algal bloom. Whether this was the reason or not (see more below) I had ZERO observable algae in the tank for the five months it was running, a first for me. So an effort to try the same moderate-heavy plant load from the get-go once again has led to this:

View attachment 806924

All plants were purchased the past couple of days, just floating them in the tank for now while testing it for leaks; will drain and then dirt it tomorrow or Wednesday.

Did I mention I am a cost conscious grad student? Most of the plants in there, were purchased for $10 from another grad student who studies aquarium plants. Ha! I also bought a few others from a couple of stores.

In terms of hardware, the light is a Nicrew ClassicLED Plus. A Marineland Penguin Bio-wheel 150 GPH hang-on-back is coming tomorrow. I'm up in the air about a heater--current plan is to not purchase one. But see questions below.

There are three primary goals of the tank: 1. create an environment that promotes health for the fish in it; 2. create a visually pleasing tank (will probably largely fail at this) but also a tank with lots of nooks and crannies--I like having a tank in which one has to search for a while in order to find everything; 3. create a low maintenance, relatively 'self-sustaining' ecosystem. As such, I am planning on a low stocking load at present. Perhaps 10-12 small fish and Neocaridina shrimp. I have hard water, and so I have been planning on White Clouds for the fish. But certainly open to suggestions--others I have been thinking of include Emerald Dwarf Rasboras, Celestial Pearl Danios (some sources say OK in hard water), and some of the hard water dwarf rainbows. I really like Endlers, but I don't want to have a population explosion (and not sure I'm down with an all-male tank). Obviously some of the White Cloud alternatives would require a heater.

I do have a few questions if anyone has ideas (answers to even one appreciated):

1. What does everyone think of wintertime lows of about 66-68 in terms of amazon sword and wisteria survival and growth? Most accounts I read online seem to suggest these would be OK at lower temps as long as not super low? (again, wondering about whether I need a heater or not)
2. Am I correct that for a dirted tank I do not need to dose ammonia or fish food for a fishless cycle? I.e. that decaying organic matter will provide all the ammonia I need? If this is right, I assume that I still need to conduct frequent water changes to ensure that the ammonia doesn't get high enough to harm the plants?
3. I have been thinking about why it was that my last aquarium had zero visible algae. One theory, as written above, is that plant growth accomplished this. But in hindsight there really weren't that many plants in the tank. The other theory would be that a beginner's 'mistake' I made in terms of filtration was the reason for the algae success: when I set up that tank I had been watching a lot of youtube videos from fishtubers who talked about stuffing their filters full of biomedia. I erroneously thought that this meant activated carbon filter cartridges, and so stuffed two activated carbon filter cartridges into the hang-on-back. I ran the tank with these in it for nearly three months until I realized that this was not what these youtubers meant by biomedia. But I am now wondering if in doing so I chemically filtered out most of the nutrients from the water, thus preventing algae growth? I am half thinking of starting the tank with sponge media only in the filter and trying to stunt algae growth with plant growth first, but still keeping two cartridges on hand in case the algae gets going and then trying to repeat my 'experiment' if necessary--does this whole theory/plan of using activated carbon to combat algae make any sense at all?

Any other thoughts are also much appreciated. Will post more updates as I go along, and look forward to sharing!

1. Personally I dont think they would survive. I had a small bowl a while ago with some plants and a light, in a cool dark corner and the coolness killed them off, they had a nutrient rich substrate and a good light but they still died. I set up a new bigger bowl a little ago and the plants have grown so much now that the temp is a constant 75-77. I just keep it in a warmer place next to the window and I have a lid for evaporation.

2. I would test and see if there are any ammonia readings, if the soil provides sufficient amounts then you wont need to dose but I would check just in case. When I set up my 20g dirted tank I used a filter that had a sponge from an already established tank so the cycle went smoothly for me, I didnt even test it till I was considering adding fish in and my results were 0/0/20.

3. I never got algae in my dirted tank from the beginning too but I started very heavily with the plants, which if I were to do a tank again, I would do the same.

Also I would reccomend Pool Filter Sand a bit more than Play sand. I believe it provides better circulation since the grains are bigger and I used PFS for my dirted tank and it works great!

 

10-12 white clouds is not low stocking....if you truly want low maintenance then you gotta scale down the stock a bit more For 29g maybe 6 or less white clouds is considered lowly stocked (this means going several months without maintenance, feeding, water changes etc)

1. Wisteria is pretty hardy it may survive no heater tank, doesnt hurt to try
2. I would still add some fish food, hard to say how much ammonia is leeched from the dirt
3. If planted heavily and feeding kept low then algae will have a hard time growing. Dont need carbon filters altho yes they could potentially hinder algae growth initially

 

10-12 white clouds is not low stocking....if you truly want low maintenance then you gotta scale down the stock a bit more For 29g maybe 6 or less white clouds is considered lowly stocked (this means going several months without maintenance, feeding, water changes etc)

1. Wisteria is pretty hardy it may survive no heater tank, doesnt hurt to try
2. I would still add some fish food, hard to say how much ammonia is leeched from the dirt
3. If planted heavily and feeding kept low then algae will have a hard time growing. Dont need carbon filters altho yes they could potentially hinder algae growth initially

Really? I find 10-12 white clouds in a 29g is pretty low stocked imo.

 

Really? I find 10-12 white clouds in a 29g is pretty low stocked imo.

Yeah it's just a matter of opinion. I consider low stock tank to be able to go for several months of neglect without issues. It's hard to imagine not running into trouble with 10-12 minnows.... I think after a few months at least 1 will get sick/weak from build up of waste and/or competition for food.

I'm also taking into consideration that a fish will be kept for several years, so adult white clouds are gonna be significantly bigger than when bought from the LFS

 

We have a dirted 29 capped with PFS that we started as an outside tank a couple years ago and have since moved inside and is still flourishing. Never used play sand but I think it’s lighter than PFS so I would probably go with the PFS. Personal experience.

 

Thanks for the fantastic/helpful replies!

First of all, you all have convinced me--pool filter sand it will be.

Thanks as well for the advice/consensus on the uncertainty re dirt as ammonia source alone. I have the API Master Kit and will add a bit of fish food to begin and then test and go from there.

My confusingly worded 'relatively self-sustaining ecosystem' was meant to be closer to the way marmaaa understood it--I'd like to achieve a tank that can go 2-4 weeks without nitrates getting to a point that demand a water change. Hopefully this is a relatively low stock for that purpose; Cherryshrimp's advice would make a great deal of sense if I were hoping to go months between changes. As an aside, the desire for this setup is not a matter of not wanting to change water, but rather that I may have some research trips coming up and would like to keep maintenance as low as possible for my wife! And I also just like the idea of a tank that is somewhat 'in-balance'.

I guess we will see regarding the heater and stocking given the skepticism regarding the swords (and potentially other plants I may want to purchase). Most sites seem to suggest 72 as a maximum temp for White Clouds and 72 as a minimum for swords and other 'tropical' plants. Our house runs in the 70s in the summer and early fall. I guess I'll return to this when the tank cycles a month or so from now.

Hopefully tomorrow will be setup day--I will post some pictures once done. Again, thanks so much!

Not sure on the temperature limits for those plants. I keep them both, but always above 70°F.

In a dirted tank, you may or may not get an ammonia spike from your soil. I've done a couple dirted tanks and I never measured an ammonia spike in them until I added ammonia myself. I wouldn't count on the tank producing enough ammonia to cycle itself. But it might.

I supplemented my soil with bonemeal for some added nutrition. Maybe that's not necessary, but its something you could consider.

I like white clouds, and highly recommend them. I keep a school of 12 in the only "upstairs tank" in the house. They're great little fish, and cheap.

I'd be interested to hear how your activated carbon experiment turns out.

And thanks for the encouragement re the white clouds Jeremyw. I have always been interested in them, though I have never kept them. They do seem quite interesting, and I like the fact that spawns sound possible from time to time without being likely to result in the sort of population boom you'd see with livebearers. Or at least this is what everything I read makes them sounds like. What has been your experience in terms of spawning?

 

Excited to see what it looks like!

 

And thanks for the encouragement re the white clouds Jeremyw. I have always been interested in them, though I have never kept them. They do seem quite interesting, and I like the fact that spawns sound possible from time to time without being likely to result in the sort of population boom you'd see with livebearers. Or at least this is what everything I read makes them sounds like. What has been your experience in terms of spawning?

They are fun to watch. Their flaring behavior is fun to see, and really puts their fin colors on display. They aren't all that striking compared to some other fish, but I enjoy watching them. I should add that they are shoalers, but not schoolers. They hang out together a lot, but they never show any sort of coordinated group swimming. So if you're looking for schooling behavior, then these aren't the fish for that.

I've never had them spawn. But I keep them at temperatures above 72°F, have a pH of 8, and keep them in a community tank with platies. My water parameters stack the odds against spawning in the first place, and I'm sure the platies wouldn't allow eggs to sit around for very long.

But I'm currently setting up a new space in my basement, and one of my future projects is a cold-water species only tank for white clouds. So hopefully sometime next year I'll see some spawning.

 

Took until 1:30 in the morning, but it is done (well, almost--see below). Ultimately went with a three-part mix for the dirt--top soil, some of our Kansas clayish soil (baked first) to hopefully get some iron in (couldn't find potter's clay), and a bit of bonemeal per JeremyWs advice above (thanks also for the White Cloud info!).

First, I put a piece of slate-bottom driftwood in the tank.



Then I added the bonemeal. Here's a shot of the bonemeal on the bottom:



Then, a hiccup. I opened the bag of Menard's cheapo top soil I bought (many online sources state the cheapo top soil is the way to go) only to find that this particular bag/brand was more of a cheapo 'decaying tree and grass with an occasional bit of dirtish-like substance mixed in'. I.e. it did not look anything like soil. Almost went with it anyways, but there were just a lot of twigs, roots, etc.

So I went to Home Depot and bought their cheapo top soil. Much better, looked like dirt and so used this, adding in some of the baked Kansas soil as well. Went with about an inch of soil, and then capped with perhaps a bit more than an inch of pool filter sand.

I had washed the sand pretty well, and so I didn't need to fill and drain a bunch of times. Planting took quite some time, and I still have a bunch of val left over outside. Apparently the tangled plant mess in the small bucket took out most of my water lettuce--I had 5 heads two days ago but could only find one while planting. Finally, I added a piece of pothos to the hang-on-back filter

In any event, the almost finished product is below. Maybe this should be called the Val tank!






I say almost finished, because as I often do, I forgot one small but important detail: my wife had asked me to move the tank/stand 4 inches to the right so as to be better offset from the TV stand. Of course I forgot. Sigh.



So in a couple of weeks, once the plants are hopefully rooted and able to withstand everything without coming unrooted, I'll have a friend over, drain the tank down to the sand and soil, and then gently attempt to slide the stand and tank 4 inches to the right. And then refill. If we make it through that without a repeat of what happened with the last tank it will almost be stocking time.

 

Took until 1:30 in the morning, but it is done (well, almost--see below). Ultimately went with a three-part mix for the dirt--top soil, some of our Kansas clayish soil (baked first) to hopefully get some iron in (couldn't find potter's clay), and a bit of bonemeal per JeremyWs advice above (thanks also for the White Cloud info!).

First, I put a piece of slate-bottom driftwood in the tank.
View attachment 807351

Then I added the bonemeal. Here's a shot of the bonemeal on the bottom:

View attachment 807350
Then, a hiccup. I opened the bag of Menard's cheapo top soil I bought (many online sources state the cheapo top soil is the way to go) only to find that this particular bag/brand was more of a cheapo 'decaying tree and grass with an occasional bit of dirtish-like substance mixed in'. I.e. it did not look anything like soil. Almost went with it anyways, but there were just a lot of twigs, roots, etc.

So I went to Home Depot and bought their cheapo top soil. Much better, looked like dirt and so used this, adding in some of the baked Kansas soil as well. Went with about an inch of soil, and then capped with perhaps a bit more than an inch of pool filter sand.

I had washed the sand pretty well, and so I didn't need to fill and drain a bunch of times. Planting took quite some time, and I still have a bunch of val left over outside. Apparently the tangled plant mess in the small bucket took out most of my water lettuce--I had 5 heads two days ago but could only find one while planting. Finally, I added a piece of pothos to the hang-on-back filter

In any event, the almost finished product is below. Maybe this should be called the Val tank!
View attachment 807352

View attachment 807353

I say almost finished, because as I often do, I forgot one small but important detail: my wife had asked me to move the tank/stand 4 inches to the right so as to be better offset from the TV stand. Of course I forgot. Sigh.

View attachment 807355
So in a couple of weeks, once the plants are hopefully rooted and able to withstand everything without coming unrooted, I'll have a friend over, drain the tank down to the sand and soil, and then gently attempt to slide the stand and tank 4 inches to the right. And then refill. If we make it through that without a repeat of what happened with the last tank it will almost be stocking time.

Tanks looking great so far! The light colored sand POPS! You could probably drain it right now and move it, the plants would be fine as long as you fill it back in extremely gently. All my dirted tanks root very quickly however, so if you do decide to wait then it should be no problem!

 

Tanks looking great so far! The light colored sand POPS! You could probably drain it right now and move it, the plants would be fine as long as you fill it back in extremely gently. All my dirted tanks root very quickly however, so if you do decide to wait then it should be no problem!

Thanks! A bit nervous about how the sand will look once it starts to be covered with other stuff, but definitely looks quite good at present as top substrate.

And I may have been slightly overreacting at 2 in the morning--it seems that there is a great deal of openness within the household to keeping the tank where it is.

By the way, didn't mention it above, but the switch to top soil from potting soil came down to Yucca. The organic potting soil had sphagnum peat moss in it, which I really wanted in the tank to hopefully reduce water hardness a bit (TDS here may be as high as 300, though I really should have this confirmed at my LFS rather than relying on test strips). But Yucca was listed as one of the potential ingredients on the bag. Some quick Googling revealed one scientific study on fish that used one kind of Yucca to reduce ammonia in the water. But another source listed Yucca as poisonous to fish. So as intriguing as the ammonia study sounded, Yucca and the potting soil was out and the top soil in. (there are 40 something kinds of Yucca I think, so the different results probably boil down to differences between species?)

 

Thanks! A bit nervous about how the sand will look once it starts to be covered with other stuff, but definitely looks quite good at present as top substrate.

And I may have been slightly overreacting at 2 in the morning--it seems that there is a great deal of openness within the household to keeping the tank where it is.

By the way, didn't mention it above, but the switch to top soil from potting soil came down to Yucca. The organic potting soil had sphagnum peat moss in it, which I really wanted in the tank to hopefully reduce water hardness a bit (TDS here may be as high as 300, though I really should have this confirmed at my LFS rather than relying on test strips). But Yucca was listed as one of the potential ingredients on the bag. Some quick Googling revealed one scientific study on fish that used one kind of Yucca to reduce ammonia in the water. But another source listed Yucca as poisonous to fish. So as intriguing as the ammonia study sounded, Yucca and the potting soil was out and the top soil in. (there are 40 something kinds of Yucca I think, so the different results probably boil down to differences between species?)

Ive seen lots of people use topsoil with great results in their tanks. I guess being safe is better than being sorry so you probably did the right thing in case the Yucca was actually poisonous.

Oh and did I mention that, that piece of wood looks super cool!

 

Ive seen lots of people use topsoil with great results in their tanks. I guess being safe is better than being sorry so you probably did the right thing in case the Yucca was actually poisonous.

Oh and did I mention that, that piece of wood looks super cool!

Thanks! A gift from another grad student friend. I would ultimately like to add a long piece of driftwood that runs lengthwise across the back of the tank and 2-3 rocks. Will check out landscape supply companies this week or next to see if I can find some cheap rocks. I may also see how a couple of small pieces of spiderwood I have from the 10 gallon look--ultimately would like a bunch of hiding places to hopefully achieve survival of some shrimplets.

By the way, a question for all: is there a recommended spacing for vals? I tried to leave an inch and a half or so between them when I planted yesterday. But if spacing doesn't matter too much I will plant them all in the back (still have 10-15 plants left in the bucket).

 

Thanks! A gift from another grad student friend. I would ultimately like to add a long piece of driftwood that runs lengthwise across the back of the tank and 2-3 rocks. Will check out landscape supply companies this week or next to see if I can find some cheap rocks. I may also see how a couple of small pieces of spiderwood I have from the 10 gallon look--ultimately would like a bunch of hiding places to hopefully achieve survival of some shrimplets.

By the way, a question for all: is there a recommended spacing for vals? I tried to leave an inch and a half or so between them when I planted yesterday. But if spacing doesn't matter too much I will plant them all in the back (still have 10-15 plants left in the bucket).

What a nice gift! Maybe adding rocks so the rrocks kind of blend the wood into the substrate would look really nice! I think placing all the vals in the back will be completely fine and imo would look much better. Having the taller plants in the back and the smaller ones in the front give the tank good depth. I would put the rest of the vals in.

 

What a nice gift! Maybe adding rocks so the rrocks kind of blend the wood into the substrate would look really nice! I think placing all the vals in the back will be completely fine and imo would look much better. Having the taller plants in the back and the smaller ones in the front give the tank good depth. I would put the rest of the vals in.

That's a good idea re the rocks! I did put most of the vals in. Also added a piece of spiderwood behind one of the swords. Here is a (very poor quality) photo of the tank post adding these:



Tested water today--looks like 2-3 ppm of ammonia already, so the substrate is indeed acting as a source for ammonia. I just did some skimming, and looks like mixed reviews on whether or not ammonia is likely to get to a high enough level to pose danger to the plants--what does everyone think? Should I do water changes or just let things sit? (at least one source online stated they had nice plant growth at high ammonia levels)

I'm going to order some filter media (have a biowheel, but want to add some both for extra and because the pothos roots seem likely to eventually stop the biowheel; this has already happened, and it wouldn't take long to lose all of the BB on the wheel) and Tetra SafeStart and add these when they come, probably Monday.

 

That's a good idea re the rocks! I did put most of the vals in. Also added a piece of spiderwood behind one of the swords. Here is a (very poor quality) photo of the tank post adding these:
View attachment 807669

Tested water today--looks like 2-3 ppm of ammonia already, so the substrate is indeed acting as a source for ammonia. I just did some skimming, and looks like mixed reviews on whether or not ammonia is likely to get to a high enough level to pose danger to the plants--what does everyone think? Should I do water changes or just let things sit? (at least one source online stated they had nice plant growth at high ammonia levels)

I'm going to order some filter media (have a biowheel, but want to add some both for extra and because the pothos roots seem likely to eventually stop the biowheel; this has already happened, and it wouldn't take long to lose all of the BB on the wheel) and Tetra SafeStart and add these when they come, probably Monday.

Tank is looking really good so far! I would not do water changes, I plant from day one and have the tank go through cycling with the plants, they do just fine and will soak up some ammonia too. Adding more filter media is always good if you have the space. I also have the biowheel filter and I fill those up with lots of sponges and biomax or seachem matrix.

 

Tank is looking really good so far! I would not do water changes, I plant from day one and have the tank go through cycling with the plants, they do just fine and will soak up some ammonia too. Adding more filter media is always good if you have the space. I also have the biowheel filter and I fill those up with lots of sponges and biomax or seachem matrix.

Thanks! (though you are being kind--I just went through your journal and your tank has looked wonderful in all of its variations in a way that I don't think this tank will ever reach. )

Figured out that the filter sponge media cost the same at my LFS and so bought it yesterday and put some in the filter. I also purchased a bag of precycled pebbles from them and put this in the filter as well. As of last night this had not had an appreciable effect on ammonia, which doesn't surprise me; when I set up the dirted tank last year it took about 5 weeks before ammonia/nitrite both read and stayed 0, despite three applications of Tetra SafeSmart during that time. I think the dirt just releases so much stuff that it overwhelms anything added to the tank. Thank goodness that this is a fishless cycle--the fish-in cycle was quite stressful last year!

If anyone has any stocking thoughts do let me know. Again, I'm shooting for a relatively low stocking load. Shrimp and probably a school of something. Water temps are running 73-74 unheated, PH 7.8-8. Testing strips last year stated that I have a Gh of 300. One online source gives 302 for us. So it is hard water. I think White Clouds are still the most likely, though I was looking at Norman Lampeyes at the LFS yesterday and was quite intrigued. 73-74 in the summer is high, but perhaps doable for the White Clouds? I probably would heat at 70 degrees in the winter to try to keep things warm enough for most tropical plants.

The other one I have been thinking of are Emerald Dwarf Rasboras, with heater added.

But still very open to any other ideas people have!

 

And a few pictures and questions. Here's the tank from just now:




Questions are on the plants. To me, only the Java Fern looks good. As a whole, I'm not too worried about the vals, though there is some melting. But both Amazon swords have a sort of rust color on the leaves now; wisteria has blackish areas on tips. Are the swords and wisteria just melting? Or is this something else? (the swords are almost algae-like in color on parts of the leaves, but I don't think it is algae?).

As an aside, and unless my light suddenly lost its 'white' setting, I think the yellowish tint to the tank as a whole is from leaching tannins?

Here is the Fern:




And a sword:




And the Wisteria:



Thanks again for any and all thoughts!

 

Thanks! (though you are being kind--I just went through your journal and your tank has looked wonderful in all of its variations in a way that I don't think this tank will ever reach. )

Figured out that the filter sponge media cost the same at my LFS and so bought it yesterday and put some in the filter. I also purchased a bag of precycled pebbles from them and put this in the filter as well. As of last night this had not had an appreciable effect on ammonia, which doesn't surprise me; when I set up the dirted tank last year it took about 5 weeks before ammonia/nitrite both read and stayed 0, despite three applications of Tetra SafeSmart during that time. I think the dirt just releases so much stuff that it overwhelms anything added to the tank. Thank goodness that this is a fishless cycle--the fish-in cycle was quite stressful last year!

If anyone has any stocking thoughts do let me know. Again, I'm shooting for a relatively low stocking load. Shrimp and probably a school of something. Water temps are running 73-74 unheated, PH 7.8-8. Testing strips last year stated that I have a Gh of 300. One online source gives 302 for us. So it is hard water. I think White Clouds are still the most likely, though I was looking at Norman Lampeyes at the LFS yesterday and was quite intrigued. 73-74 in the summer is high, but perhaps doable for the White Clouds? I probably would heat at 70 degrees in the winter to try to keep things warm enough for most tropical plants.

The other one I have been thinking of are Emerald Dwarf Rasboras, with heater added.

But still very open to any other ideas people have!

What about some medaka ricefish? They accept almost about any temp. They are super pretty imo and Ive been eyeing the Youkihi Rice Fish for maybe an indoor pond project soon! If you decide to go heated you have plenty of other options. Are there any colors you specifically want?

And a few pictures and questions. Here's the tank from just now:

View attachment 808014

Questions are on the plants. To me, only the Java Fern looks good. As a whole, I'm not too worried about the vals, though there is some melting. But both Amazon swords have a sort of rust color on the leaves now; wisteria has blackish areas on tips. Are the swords and wisteria just melting? Or is this something else? (the swords are almost algae-like in color on parts of the leaves, but I don't think it is algae?).

As an aside, and unless my light suddenly lost its 'white' setting, I think the yellowish tint to the tank as a whole is from leaching tannins?

Here is the Fern:

View attachment 808012

And a sword:

View attachment 808013

And the Wisteria:
View attachment 808011

Thanks again for any and all thoughts!

That is completely normal for an amazon sword. When they are newly planted they turn brown or any other color and will die off, once they settle in they will regrow back quickly. All my amazon swords have gone through that phase. If you see dying leaves or they are COMPLETELy wilted I would cut the leaf from the stem and throw. Leave all green leaves even if there is a little bit of brown.

As for your wisteria, it is emersed grown (which means it was grown out of water) and not submerged so its converting in your tank which means all emersed leaves will die off and you will get the new submerged growth on the top. Very common for wisteria to be sold as emersed.

 

What about some medaka ricefish? They accept almost about any temp. They are super pretty imo and Ive been eyeing the Youkihi Rice Fish for maybe an indoor pond project soon! If you decide to go heated you have plenty of other options. Are there any colors you specifically want?


That is completely normal for an amazon sword. When they are newly planted they turn brown or any other color and will die off, once they settle in they will regrow back quickly. All my amazon swords have gone through that phase. If you see dying leaves or they are COMPLETELy wilted I would cut the leaf from the stem and throw. Leave all green leaves even if there is a little bit of brown.

As for your wisteria, it is emersed grown (which means it was grown out of water) and not submerged so its converting in your tank which means all emersed leaves will die off and you will get the new submerged growth on the top. Very common for wisteria to be sold as emersed.

Thanks for the continued support! That is great to know re the wisteria and swords and relieves some worry.

I've thought a bit about ricefish, but for some reason not the biggest fan. Not sure why. I'll take another look.

It's probably less colors than a combination of size and behavior that I'm looking for. If I had softer water I would almost certainly go for a school of 12-15 chili rasbora. In fact, I still might, but just a bit caught up on the hard water thing. I did have chilis in my 10 gallon before the betta started picking on them, and they seemed to do OK. But I have also come across some articles online that stated that exposure to hard water could harm the internal organs of small soft water fish (I forget which one they studied, though it was not the chilis). I suppose one way around this would be to begin to dilute my tap water with distilled or RO water. I could probably only afford doing 1 gallon distilled/RO per 2 gallons tap, which would still leave me at 200, about or just above the upper limit of what some youtubers with hard water keeping soft water seem to be at.

I also really like Endlers, but as I don't want overpopulation, this would leave me with the male only option. And every time I see the male only endler tanks at my LFS (they don't carry any females) I find myself wondering what happened to all the females. One of their employees said that they are maintained as breeding stock, but I find this a bit hard to believe. So a bit ethically conflicted on them. I do know one private breeder of endlers, and maybe I can check in with him regarding a male endler only sale. I know our little boy would love the endlers!

 

Hmm what about a school of rainbow shiners?

 

Interesting idea! I did look again at the Medakas and realized that I had been thinking of Java ricefish when I wrote the last post. The Medakas are indeed cool, we'll say they are tied for the lead with white clouds and the emerald dwarfs, with endlers and the Norman lampreys close behind .

In terms of the tank, the vals are melting now too (not fun to clean up). Ammonia remains about 2 ppm, no nitrites yet.

 

Interesting idea! I did look again at the Medakas and realized that I had been thinking of Java ricefish when I wrote the last post. The Medakas are indeed cool, we'll say they are tied for the lead with white clouds and the emerald dwarfs, with endlers and the Norman lampreys close behind .

In terms of the tank, the vals are melting now too (not fun to clean up). Ammonia remains about 2 ppm, no nitrites yet.

Well that's normal for plants to melt, just give them some time and they should regrow all the leaves they've lost.

 

Well that's normal for plants to melt, just give them some time and they should regrow all the leaves they've lost.

Thanks for the continued encouragement! I'm posting a photo from tonight below--tank looks like a disaster zone right now. I'm trying to clear out decaying val, but there is always more. BUT, as you say, they will come back, and I am seeing new leaves popping out on vals, the swords, and the wisteria, and the pothos looks noticeably lusher and the wisteria taller.


If anyone is reading this in the future and considering fish-in v. fishless cycles for a dirted tank, just know that my life would be miserable right now if this were a fish-in cycle. I did a fish-in cycle last time for a 10 gallon, and the constant need to change water is stressful, even for a tank of that size. And I didn't even have particularly high ammonia readings for that one or nearly this much melting. If I had to change five-ten gallons a day on this one AND ensure that I cleaned up all of the decaying val, this build would be highly stressful, at least for my disposition. With the fishless cycle, on the other hand, things are great--I just try to spend 20 minutes a day cleaning out decaying plant matter and that's it. I don't even have to dose ammonia, as the dirt and melting is providing plenty of that. (though as noted above, this may not be true for everyone) So fishless cycle highly recommended for relative beginners with dirted tanks!

 

Thanks for the continued encouragement! I'm posting a photo from tonight below--tank looks like a disaster zone right now. I'm trying to clear out decaying val, but there is always more. BUT, as you say, they will come back, and I am seeing new leaves popping out on vals, the swords, and the wisteria, and the pothos looks noticeably lusher and the wisteria taller.View attachment 808591

If anyone is reading this in the future and considering fish-in v. fishless cycles for a dirted tank, just know that my life would be miserable right now if this were a fish-in cycle. I did a fish-in cycle last time for a 10 gallon, and the constant need to change water is stressful, even for a tank of that size. And I didn't even have particularly high ammonia readings for that one or nearly this much melting. If I had to change five-ten gallons a day on this one AND ensure that I cleaned up all of the decaying val, this build would be highly stressful, at least for my disposition. With the fishless cycle, on the other hand, things are great--I just try to spend 20 minutes a day cleaning out decaying plant matter and that's it. I don't even have to dose ammonia, as the dirt and melting is providing plenty of that. (though as noted above, this may not be true for everyone) So fishless cycle highly recommended for relative beginners witj dirted tanks!

Very true. Fish in cycles are not recommended if you do not have the time to constantly change water out and if you are still new to the hobby. Waiting for the tank to cycle empty can be boring but in the end it is so worth it. Plus during that time your plants can adjust and regrow so that when new fish are added they feel cozy in their new home.

 

Nitrites! .25 ppm, ammonia remains at about 2 ppm. My test strips also show nitrates, though didn't bother to test with the master kit. Actually, my almost year old test strips are holding up pretty well so far-- the test strips alerted me to low nitrite levels and I then tested with the kit.

Full melt cleanup continues. We'll be optimistic and call this the 'life springs anew' version of a tank. Today I cut all of the brown leaves off a sword, leaving just two sprouts. And believe it or not, there are still 25-30 vals in here, though many are just sprouts now.

 

Today my wife (also a grad student!) had a online final, so I was asked to take little man out of the house for the morning. Where do two guys go on a Saturday morning out? To the landscaping center to buy aquarium rocks of course! (we also stopped to get him a favorite snack, went to the two pet stores he (me?) wanted to visit, and went to the playground, so hopefully not the worst of dads!) Wound up choosing 'Mexican Beach Pebbles', which I think may be basalt (?) and that a couple of online threads suggested are aquarium safe. 13 pounds for 5.55 at .45 cents a pound. Just a biiiiit cheaper than the lfs!

After we got back home and he went up for his nap, went back to the lfs. Lucked out and was helped by a really nice guy about to begin as an undergrad at my university. We got to chatting, and whether he did it on purpose or not, he took my order of 1 bunch of hornwort, 1 clump of 'dark red ludwigia' and 1 crypt and delivered 1 large bunch of hornwort', 3 crypts, and 1 bunch + extras of ludwigia' for the same original price. Score!

Came home and got to work. My large driftwood has lots of nooks and crannies and I jammed the hornwort in. Cleared some val from the middle of the tank and put the ludwigia' there. Planted the crypts around the tank. And then put my spin on RedOnion's suggestion above regarding rocks. For now, anyways, I'm quite happy with the results!

 

Today my wife (also a grad student!) had a online final, so I was asked to take little man out of the house for the morning. Where do two guys go on a Saturday morning out? To the landscaping center to buy aquarium rocks of course! (we also stopped to get him a favorite snack, went to the two pet stores he (me?) wanted to visit, and went to the playground, so hopefully not the worst of dads!) Wound up choosing 'Mexican Beach Pebbles', which I think may be basalt (?) and that a couple of online threads suggested are aquarium safe. 13 pounds for 5.55 at .45 cents a pound. Just a biiiiit cheaper than the lfs!

After we got back home and he went up for his nap, went back to the lfs. Lucked out and was helped by a really nice guy about to begin as an undergrad at my university. We got to chatting, and whether he did it on purpose or not, he took my order of 1 bunch of hornwort, 1 clump of 'dark red ludwigia' and 1 crypt and delivered 1 large bunch of hornwort', 3 crypts, and 1 bunch + extras of ludwigia' for the same original price. Score!

Came home and got to work. My large driftwood has lots of nooks and crannies and I jammed the hornwort in. Cleared some val from the middle of the tank and put the ludwigia' there. Planted the crypts around the tank. And then put my spin on RedOnion's suggestion above regarding rocks. For now, anyways, I'm quite happy with the results!

Looking good so far! Did I already mention that the wood is an amazing piece LOL. You should try adding a black bg to the tank it will make the plants pop!

 

Looking good so far! Did I already mention that the wood is an amazing piece LOL. You should try adding a black bg to the tank it will make the plants pop!

Thanks! And good idea--I'll try that!

 

I think you are officially my tank build mentor RedOnion -- the dark background (along with a different light setting) really does help quite a bit!

 

I think you are officially my tank build mentor RedOnion -- the dark background (along with a different light setting) really does help quite a bit!

Yup! it looks great with the black background, glad I could help

 

Quick update: 2 ppm ammonia, 2ppm nitrite ( I think, the test kit’s color chart had nothing particularly close to the bright purple I was seeing). Test strip says there is some nitrate as well.

Project for the next couple of days: pulling the biowheel (has already stopped working and not worth the hassle or worry to me—I’ll just add more filter media) and then baffling the water flow. The flow is practically blowing the wisteria away as is.

 

Quick update: added ceramic media to the filter and pulled the bio wheel today. Also pushed the wisteria in question down into the substrate more, which seems to have helped and means I can put off baffling for now.

 

Today’s parameters: ~.50 ppm ammonia (significant drop), 4.0 ppm nitrite, 10-30 ppm nitrate. Progress with the cycle, I think.

Lots of interesting small things happening with the tank: new plant growth; a few snails popping up; algae growth (minor at present); and a dancing wisteria ( back to being blown around by the current）. Will post a new pic tomorrow.

 

Today's parameters: 0 ppm ammonia, 6-8 ppm nitrite. So ammonia's zeroed out and nitrites are sky high. There are some nitrates, meaning that some nitrite is getting converted I think, and so I will still give things a day or two and then start water changes if nitrites remain this high ( was just reading a thread that mentioned a theory that high nitrites could be detrimental to a cycle).

Continue to see new plant growth. Attached is a full tank pic, a pic of the lushest part if the tank ( right part of the full tank pic), and a pic of new leaves on one of the swords. (Also some diatoms-- algae scraper comes tomorrow)

 

Not a whole lot to report. I did a 30-35% water change three days ago. Ammonia remains zeroed out, nitrites still very high, with some nitrates present. I’m thinking that I might do a big water change tomorrow to see what happens to the nitrite levels.

in terms of plant growth, I would rate growth by the hornwort, water lettuce, crypts, and one of the swords as good to excellent. Wisteria just a tick below, with the other sword and the vals taking up the rear. Don’t know where to rank the new Ludwigia. There are clear signs of growth, but the same thing that happened to my Ludwigia in my last tank (tops of plants growing nicely before the plant starts turning black and rotting from the soil up) has started here too. While reading Basil’s build I saw advice to trim off the bottoms once this starts and have begun this—we’ll see how this works! FTP below.

 

Another quick update: did an almost 50 percent wc yesterday, which got nitrite down to about 3 ppm. I also cut the rotting bottoms off most of the rest of the ludwigia. Both bc I'm skeptical of the long term prospects of the ludwigia and bc I really want more plant height on the left hand side of the tank, I reached out to a Facebook marketplace seller of what looks to be Pogostemenon stellatus octopus ( his ad basically just called it 'that plant that grows really fast' , but the pic looks like Pogostemenon to me ). Looks like I"ll pick it up on Thursday!

Today's FTP:

 

After a couple of hiccups, finally purchased what I think may be Pogostemenon stellatus octopus tonight for three bucks from a guy on fb marketplace selling it as a 'really fast growing plant'. Not sure if I like it and/or if it will overshadow the surviving ludwigia, but we will see (it is in the back middle and back left;I've also included a close-up)... Continue to have nice growth from many of the plants, including esp. the water lettuce, hornwort, the java Fern, one amazon sword, one of the crypts and two of the wisteria. A few of the ludwigia are looking fairly good too...Zero ammonia, 3-4ppm nitrites, 10-20 nitrates at present...increasing numbers of ramshorn snails and also a very small amount of hair and glass algae in the tank...leaning more and more toward emerald dwarf rasboras, cpds, or ricefish for stocking once cycled, along with shrimp and perhaps sparkling or honey gouramis. Discovering that water temps get as high as 77-78 in summer, and thus leaning away from the white clouds. Thanks for reading

A question as well: is the yellowish color of the water/light/tank from tannins from the driftwood and organics from the plants? The difference between the color of the lighting in my August 10th build pics and almost every FTP since (including my 50% water change from Tuesday) is quite striking, to the point that I have almost been wondering whether there is a problem with the light. But I suppose tannins/organics are the most likely reason for this?