Help with Nitrite & Ammonia Levels that still are not coming down??

I really hope someone can help me out here with these levels & what to do.... here is waht has happened this week after adding the Whisper filter Sunday night....

June 11, 2007, 08:53:54 AM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tested today with my new API Master kit.
Was hoping for some feedback from the results I got.


Had-------                                                 
Ammonia: 1.0                                             
Nitrite:  0.50 (maybe slightly higher, but not 1.0)...possibly 0.75?                                               
Nitrate:  10 (or not quite)                                             
PH:  7.2 (possibly a little higher, but not 7.6)   
                                   
did a 5 gal water change / partial rock vack.

added 5 gal back with the prime conditioner in it.

Yesterday I tested & got:
Ammonia: 1.0                                             
Nitrite:  0.50                                                 
Nitrate:  10

Today I tested & got :
Ammonia: 1.0       (possibly slightly less)                                       
Nitrite:  0.50        (possibly slightly less) 
if they are less it is very slight.

What should I do?? should I leave it??
Should I do another water change??  If so when??                         

Reason I ask is that they are still slightly high & my Rasbora is acting strange again  :-\

 

HI New2Fish.

Please stop vaccuuming the gravel and don't do it again until you're cycled. By vaccuuming, you're disturbing the bacterial beds that try to establish themselves on your gravel floor. Do a partial water change every time you see ammonia or nitrites above 0.5 (and later, when nitrates are above, say, 25. Certainly do a water change if it reaches 50). Water changes are necessary for your fish' health, in particular if you ahve nitrites/ammonia in your tank. They won't slow down the cycle too much (I've cycled with fish in less than a month recently, with lots of water changes).

Cycling can take weeks if you're on the unlucky side. Beyond 6 weeks and you're officially very unlucky and you should check that your tank is not sitting on ancient sacred indian cemetary grounds! Realistically, expect 3 weeks to a month to complete a cycle. You'll know you're cycled when you have no ammonia and no nitrites left at all. So now, the next step is for ammonia to completely disappear and to be processed into nitrites. 

The encouraging news is that once the ammonia starts diminishing, it seems to go disappear quick. The nitrites into nitrates process can take slightly longer, and the nitrite spike can be scarily high for days (I had that bad experience with one tank, and the other one had nice and comfy levels of everything throughout).

I suspect the reason your cycle is quite slow is your vaccuuming the gravel. Sorry we didn't make it clear to you you shouldnt' do that while cycling.

 

Humm.. OK.. that could be it.. however I was told by a friend who has had fist for years that the UGF system could be causing the levels to be be high & that I should vac it because the ugf was not doing it's job that wall @ all.. the airpump was also part of that problem ???

Maybe I missed it...So should I do a water change only sometime?? & when? today? wait a week? Any help would be greatly appreciated

 

Armadillo is right...Let the bacteria colonize on the gravel, decor, etc....You won't notice the ammonia and nitrites disappear over night and sometimes it can take a couple of days...But since you are seeing nitrates appear you are definitely getting closer.....Keep an eye on the nitrate level as Armadillo said and do a large water change if the nitrate level gets too high - over 20-25....

 

At this stage of the game when cycling with fish, a lot of little water changes more frequently rather then large one's every few days goes a long way. When I hit the ammonia/nitrite stage of my cycle, I was doing 20% water changes two times a day. My ammonia never went higher then 0.5 ppm, my nitrites spiked to a max of 2 ppm (but were usually around 1 ppm) and my nitrates never had a chance to get above 10 ppm. I was using Prime the entire time and didn't lose any fish or even notice any signs of stress at all (same pH at you pretty much). There are no two ways about it, this part of the cycle just seems to take forever. There isn't a way to cheat it, you just have to do what's best for the fish and move forward. In your case I would at least be doing smaller (maybe 2 Gal) water changes daily. It will make for more gradual changes to the quality of water which is less stressful on the fish.

 

it's hard to have patience sometimes with cycling. just focus on keeping the fish healthy with prime and water changes and let the cycle take care of itself.. eventually it will cycle, and if you're having a lot of trouble, you might consider adding a sponge filter to the tank to give the good bacteria a huge surface to colonize in addition to the gravel and the sponge in your main filter.

 

you might consider adding a sponge filter to the tank to give the good bacteria a huge surface to colonize in addition to the gravel and the sponge in your main filter.

I have a Whisper filter too, and I use the . It gives you a second sponge to get the good bacteria to colonize (you use this along with the black sponge the filter came with). You don't even have to use the activated carbon inserts if you don't want to, you can just use . With this 2nd sponge in my filter, I can change out the mechanical filter material without a single ammonia spike.

 

At this stage of the game when cycling with fish, a lot of little water changes more frequently rather then large one's every few days goes a long way. When I hit the ammonia/nitrite stage of my cycle, I was doing 20% water changes two times a day. My ammonia never went higher then 0.5 ppm, my nitrites spiked to a max of 2 ppm (but were usually around 1 ppm) and my nitrates never had a chance to get above 10 ppm. I was using Prime the entire time and didn't lose any fish or even notice any signs of stress at all (same pH at you pretty much). There are no two ways about it, this part of the cycle just seems to take forever. There isn't a way to cheat it, you just have to do what's best for the fish and move forward. In your case I would at least be doing smaller (maybe 2 Gal) water changes daily. It will make for more gradual changes to the quality of water which is less stressful on the fish.

I have a very similar experience. My water change regime when I am cycling with fish is:

1/ Test am
2/ Change 20% of water if ammonia > 0; nitrite > 0.5; nitrate > 25 to 50.
3/ Test water after water change and change another 10% if one of the ammonia/nitrates/nitrites still over above-stated levels
4/ test pm (and repeat 2 and 3).

Sometimes, that meant changing the water 2x a day. Gradually, this decreases and once I am cycled, I only change 20% water 1x or 2x a week.

 

My tank took over 2 months to cycle... be patient

 

At this stage of the game when cycling with fish, a lot of little water changes more frequently rather then large one's every few days goes a long way. When I hit the ammonia/nitrite stage of my cycle, I was doing 20% water changes two times a day. My ammonia never went higher then 0.5 ppm, my nitrites spiked to a max of 2 ppm (but were usually around 1 ppm) and my nitrates never had a chance to get above 10 ppm. I was using Prime the entire time and didn't lose any fish or even notice any signs of stress at all (same pH at you pretty much). There are no two ways about it, this part of the cycle just seems to take forever. There isn't a way to cheat it, you just have to do what's best for the fish and move forward. In your case I would at least be doing smaller (maybe 2 Gal) water changes daily. It will make for more gradual changes to the quality of water which is less stressful on the fish.

I have a very similar experience. My water change regime when I am cycling with fish is:

1/ Test am
2/ Change 20% of water if ammonia > 0; nitrite > 0.5; nitrate > 25 to 50.
3/ Test water after water change and change another 10% if one of the ammonia/nitrates/nitrites still over above-stated levels
4/ test pm (and repeat 2 and 3).

Sometimes, that meant changing the water 2x a day. Gradually, this decreases and once I am cycled, I only change 20% water 1x or 2x a week.

Changing water twice a day can be excessive. Especially when yiou really should wait overnight after doing a water change before testing again...Your readings right after a water change won't be accurate.

 

At this stage of the game when cycling with fish, a lot of little water changes more frequently rather then large one's every few days goes a long way. When I hit the ammonia/nitrite stage of my cycle, I was doing 20% water changes two times a day. My ammonia never went higher then 0.5 ppm, my nitrites spiked to a max of 2 ppm (but were usually around 1 ppm) and my nitrates never had a chance to get above 10 ppm. I was using Prime the entire time and didn't lose any fish or even notice any signs of stress at all (same pH at you pretty much). There are no two ways about it, this part of the cycle just seems to take forever. There isn't a way to cheat it, you just have to do what's best for the fish and move forward. In your case I would at least be doing smaller (maybe 2 Gal) water changes daily. It will make for more gradual changes to the quality of water which is less stressful on the fish.

I have a very similar experience. My water change regime when I am cycling with fish is:

1/ Test am
2/ Change 20% of water if ammonia > 0; nitrite > 0.5; nitrate > 25 to 50.
3/ Test water after water change and change another 10% if one of the ammonia/nitrates/nitrites still over above-stated levels
4/ test pm (and repeat 2 and 3).

Sometimes, that meant changing the water 2x a day. Gradually, this decreases and once I am cycled, I only change 20% water 1x or 2x a week.

Changing water twice a day can be excessive. Especially when yiou really should wait overnight after doing a water change before testing again...Your readings right after a water change won't be accurate.

I read after my water change to see if I've changed enough water, as I try to change as little water as possible. If one level is still uncomfortably high, I change again. That counts as one water change to me.

In the evening, I'll measure again as sometimes it's gone right up again. I only need to do this for 3 or 4 days (nitrites are a particularly quick at spiking I found, and the time I didn't change 2x a day in that period of the cycle, they reached 5 overnight!

 

That was sort of why I said that you shouldn't test right after the water change because you get false readings.

 

Why do you get unrealiable readings after a water change?

 

Because your water hasn't filered through yet....It's like letting water set out overnight....The pH settles in and such....

 

yea, it's just not going to be an accurate reading until everything evens out and the filtration brings all of the water to a fairly equal point.

 

Why do you get unrealiable readings after a water change?

The easiest way to see that visually is to take a glass of water and put a drop of food coloring into the glass. Notice how the food coloring doesn't instantly mix throughly with the rest of the water, but instead just sort of starts to drift and swirl a bit. Only after much stirring with a spoon (or in your tanks case via the filter) will all of the food coloring actually mix and change all of the water to that new color. In your tank, you add the new water and then take a sample from the tank. Your sample could be from only the existing water to only the new water and every combination in between, i.e. it's not an accurate sample of your actual water conditions. That's why it's always a good idea to wait. I usually wait at least 12-24 hours before testing again after a water change, even a small one.

 

Thanks for the info everyone...

I have been doing regular water changes since I started this thread... & I have NOT been vacing the rocks, etc.

My levels were very similar. then Yesterday they were:

Ammonia: .25
Nitrite: between 1.0 & 2.0
Nitrate: about 15

What do you think... am I still doing what's best for them???
Also, I am having some brown (I guess allege) develop on a couple of small spots on the glass & on some of the fake plants.
Should I leave it?

Just to make sure, as far as the gravel vac goes... if the Nitrites get high because of excess food, etc. should I really not be doing a vac @ least every so often??

Please help, I am testing water now & need to do a water change before leaving.

Thanks again for everyones help.

 

That nitrite spike is normal for this phase of your cycle. Keep up with the water changes every day to keep them under control. As to excess food, there shouldn't be any if you feed slowly. Only feed enough (are you feeding flakes?) for them to get it all before it has a chance to start falling down. Then you can add a bit more and let them eat that, then a bit more, etc until you have fed them the normal amount you have been feeding them. This way they get all the food before it has a chance to get down and into the substrate. If you still get a lot falling, then you can vacuum the top area of the substrate, just don't dig the siphon into the rocks at all. That will at least get any of the larger pieces out of the tank. Another option would be to use a fish net and just swipe at the surface of the substrate. This will churn up anything on top and allow you time to scoop it up and remove it from the tank.

 

Thanks Luniyn,
I guess my concern is the nitrite is climbing again... a couple of weeks ago it got up to 3... I lost a fish because of it... & my poor Rasbora is still not acting right.. if fact he is acting worse again 

I think some of it could be the shrimp pellets...  ???, since they fall to the bottom anyway... I was told that it needed 4 pettels a day.. I think that's too much  :-\

what about the water temp?? could that be causing any of the problems?? I have been keeping it between 75 & 78... I don't know I guess I could be reaching on this.. but I just can't  get why I has great readings after about 10 days, added 3 fish, things were great & later added the rest & now it looks like I am going to  have another Nitrite spike  :'(

Then this brown stuff that I am getting.. I am hoping it's alagee... & that it is OK, I have only seen Green algae in tanks  ???
Thanks Again for any info

I forgot to mention.. the smell in the tank was kinda strong.. not fishy... not sure how to describe it...more of a stinky chemical smell.. almost like sulfur??

 

Sinking shrimp pellets are normally for bottom feeders like Corydoras Catfish as their mouths are facing downward. Fish like Rasboras can eat them, but it's not easy for them (though my tetras will play foodball with them if they can get them away from the Cory's and the Dwarf Gourami). They would be better of with tropical flakes (something that floats at the top). And yes 4 pellets is way too much food, with the amount of fish you have 2 would be plenty but again all the fish (except the shrimp) would prefer flakes. The pellets probably aren't getting eaten and are just dissolving away creating quite a mess (i.e. they are most definitely your problem here). Your temp is good for tropical fish (if you can keep it steady at the 77-78 range it would be perfect). The brown algae is most likely just diatoms which is a symptom of cycling (they will go away soon). As for the strong smell, that could be a problem. Were you able to find the dead bodies? See if you can locate the source of the smell or is it the entire tank? If it's the entire tank then do some 25% water changes daily for the next few days. Are you using Activated Charcoal in the tank? If you are, when was the last time you changed it?

 

those shrimp pellets are about the messiest food that we've tried.. like luniyn said, I wouldn't use them unless feeding them to bottom feeders and then just enough that they won't sit there and dissolve.

that sounds like the smell that is normal for the high nitrites.. ammonia and nitrites each give off a unique odor that tells your nose where the cycle is. do you have fish unaccounted for?

If you use AC, change it once a week.

 

Because your water hasn't filered through yet....It's like letting water set out overnight....The pH settles in and such....

But my pH is really stable. In the tanks and out of the tabs.

So if I understand correctly, the reason is mixing/settling, which could mean that I need to read my readings pessimistically (if it says 2 ammonia, then it's at least 2 ammonia, seen as the new water is the one that is agitated and close to the surface).

 

Why do you get unrealiable readings after a water change?

The easiest way to see that visually is to take a glass of water and put a drop of food coloring into the glass. Notice how the food coloring doesn't instantly mix throughly with the rest of the water, but instead just sort of starts to drift and swirl a bit. Only after much stirring with a spoon (or in your tanks case via the filter) will all of the food coloring actually mix and change all of the water to that new color. In your tank, you add the new water and then take a sample from the tank. Your sample could be from only the existing water to only the new water and every combination in between, i.e. it's not an accurate sample of your actual water conditions. That's why it's always a good idea to wait. I usually wait at least 12-24 hours before testing again after a water change, even a small one.

Thanks, Lunyin. The analogy made it sink home a bit.

 

HI Guys,
Yes, everyone in the tank is counted often & we have only had the one loss, which was removed ASAP.

OK, have been doing my waterchanges... changed to AC on my UGF, but have not touched my over the back filter... (installed 2 weeks ago today)

cut the shrimp pellets way back, along with the fish flakes & did a larger water change Friday.

Friday's readings (b4 the water change) were...

Ammonia: .25                                             
Nitrite:   3.0  +   at least                               
Nitrate: 20
PH: 7.2

Today Water tested:
Ammonia: .25                                             
Nitrite:   .50
Nitrate: 20
PH: 7.2

I think it may be getting closer 
the fish are acting better & the smell, is pretty much gone.

Thinking of doing another water change today.

Also, the brown alagee is accumulating more... should I get one of those cleaners for the glass??

I was told by a guy @ the pet store, brown algee is because there is not enough light ???
I leave the light on all day from the time I get up, till I go to bed @ night. :

 

Algae is from too much light, not too little. Along with an excess of nutrients in the water. Brown algae is a common problem, particularly in newer tanks. From personal experience, I can tell you a bristlenose pleco does a wonderful clean up job. I hear Otos do very well too.

 

Yep, otos are great for brown algae. Mine cleared my stuff up in about 3 days.