Help with Chloramines, ammonia test levels, and sodium thiosulfate

Newbie here. My wife suggested we get a fish tank for our son on his 7th birthday. I bought a 20 gallon tank and put in a couple of platies at the recommendation of our LFS. Two months later, the tank completed its cycle but due to the pandemic the reputable LFS had no options for easy, colorful fish. So wanting to please my son who was excited that the tank was finally cycled, I went to a second LFS known for having a large selection but not quarantining their fish. I then purchased 4 false julii to add to the tank. The introduction of the julii killed off the platies rather suddenly and one julii died several days after getting pop-eye. I treated the tank with KanaPlex but it didn't save the sick julii. Luckily the three remaining julii survived but then I noticed a ammonia spike using my API Master Kit. I read some conflicting posts of people saying that KanaPlex killed off their beneficial bacteria (although most said it shouldn't) and figured that must have been the case (even though the nitrite levels remained 0.0 throughout). So I've been waiting for the tank to re-cycle but over 3 weeks later the ammonia levels remained at 1.0 ppm. So out of curiosity, I tested our local tap water and it tested as 1.0 ppm. I began researching and found that chloramines can trigger ammonia tests, that the city where we live uses chloramines to treat tap water, and that in places that use chloramine, they sometimes switch off and on between chlorine and chloramine. This was the only explanation that I could find to explain why our tank cycled with 0.0 ppm of ammonia 3-4 weeks ago but the tank and tap water are now testing at 1.0 ppm ... or the API ammonia test turned bad. I then decided to test the tap water after treating it with the API Tap Water Conditioner that I have been using all along. Using the recommended amounts for chloramine (1 ml per 5 gallons), the water still tested as 1.0 ppm in ammonia. I then added what I will call an ungodly amount of the water conditioner to our tap water, which finally yielded 0.0 ppm. I'll try to attach a picture. If my attachment works, from left to right is: tank water, untreated tap water, tap water with a proper amount of conditioner, and tap water with a lot of conditioner.

So here are my questions. How can I treat the chloramines? I read that API-TWC just treats the chlorine ion of chloramine but doesn't treat the ammonia ion. If that's the case, wouldn't the beneficial bacteria eventually break down the leftover ammonia ions? Is API wrong on the amount of conditioner needed to treat chloramine? Why would the large amount of conditioner yield 0.0 ppm in ammonia? Would large amounts of API-TWC be bad for the julii? TWC seems to use sodium thiosulfate and EDTA tetrasodium salt. Isn't salt bad for catfish since they are scaleless? Thanks in advance.

 

Welcome to Fishlore

I want to help you but I am tired tonight and am afraid I wouldn't give you my best. I will be back in the morning and if no one else has helped I will do my best to try to help you get things straightened out.

 

The new formula water conditioners have is supposed to remove both chlorine and chloramines just using the recommended amount. I am going to recommend you get a bottle of Seachem Prime to use until your tank has fully cycled. I does what most other water conditioners do but goes one step farther and also detoxes low levels of ammonia. It doesn't remove it so it will still show up in your test tube but it will be in a safer form.

In a fully cycled tank the prime will hold the ammonia in this safer state long enough for the bacteria to clear it out.

If you would take a few minutes to fill out this template it may help me determine why this tank isn't removing the ammonia present in your tap water. Nitrogen Cycle Template | Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle Forum | 494741

 

Welcome to FishLore!

You cycled your tank with 2 Platy's. So you only had enough ammonia converting bacteria to handle the amount of ammonia the two Platy's were producing, (The bacteria population only grows to the size there is enough food for, excess bacteria will starve off). So when you added the four cories, the increased the amount of ammonia being produced, but not enough bacteria to process it. Normally your bacteria colony would grow large enough to handle all the ammonia being produced. This is known as a mini-cycle. But I say normally because...

You also suddenly have 1ppm of ammonia in your tap water. So this too is raising the ammonia level in your tank. A fully cycled tank should be able to process the 1ppm of ammonia in your tap water, along with the ammonia your fish produce within 24 hours.

So if you stuck with me this long, here's my recommended solution:
Switch to using SeaChem Prime as your water conditioner. A standard dose of Prime has the ability to detox (detox: to put ammonia in a state not harmful to fish, but still in a state that can feed the bacteria) for 24 hours. So once your bacteria colony grows large enough to process the ammonia in your tap water within 24 hours, your fish will not be exposed top toxic ammonia.

So now is where it gets tricky. Normally I would tell you to test daily and if ammonia+nitrite were less than or equal to 1ppm just add enough Prime to treat the entire tank volume. If ammonia+nitrite is greater than 1ppm do a 50% water change with enough Prime to treat the entire tank volume. But since you have 1ppm of ammonia in your tap water, if your ammonia level is over 1ppm, a water change will not help. So you may want to target 1.5ppm.

With that said, if it were me, I would add a bottle of Tetra SafeStart+ (TSS+) to the tank. TSS+ is a bottle of the bacteria that you are trying to develop. If you choose to use this method (which is easy and no work, so I love it) here's what you'll want to do. Get a bottle of TSS+ large enough to treat your tank (don't worry if it will treat a larger tank, you can't overdose). Make sure at least 24 hours have past since the last time you added water conditioner (this is very importnat.) Then add the entire, well shaken bottle of TSS+ to the tank. Now do nothing for the next 14 days (no water changes, no adding chemicals...nothing) other than lightly feed your fish. On day 14 test your water and if all worked correctly...congrats, you've got a cycled tank.

Best of luck!

 

The new formula water conditioners have is supposed to remove both chlorine and chloramines just using the recommended amount. I am going to recommend you get a bottle of Seachem Prime to use until your tank has fully cycled. I does what most other water conditioners do but goes one step farther and also detoxes low levels of ammonia. It doesn't remove it so it will still show up in your test tube but it will be in a safer form.

In a fully cycled tank the prime will hold the ammonia in this safer state long enough for the bacteria to clear it out.

If you would take a few minutes to fill out this template it may help me determine why this tank isn't removing the ammonia present in your tap water. Nitrogen Cycle Template | Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle Forum | 494741

Thanks for you input. I have:

a 20 gallon standard tank
Aqueon Whisper filter, with the tank not filled to the top to create more of surface movement. Shortly after the ammonia spike, I added an air stone to increase oxygen and feed the beneficial bacteria.
I also have a small mesh bag of Sea Carib argonite sitting in the corner that I added shortly after the ammonia spike. I noticed that my pH had dipped to about 6.4 and wanted to raise it as I read that low pH can slow bacteria growth. I have gravel and all manufactured plants and stones. I was planning on adding live plants when the tank first cycled but have been waiting until the ammonia is corrected.

The current measurements of my tank are:
pH - 7.2
Ammonia 1.0
Nitrites 0.0
Nitrates - between 0.0 and 0.5 but closer in color to 0.0
KH - 50 ppm
GH - c. 85 ppm

Tap Water:
pH - 7.5
Ammonia - 1.0
Nitrites - 0.0
Nitrates - 0.0
KH - c. 65 ppm
GH - 50 ppm

On my first cycle, it only took 1-2 weeks for my ammonia level to zero out. It took another 6+ weeks for the nitrites to zero out, which I read is common. So I'm wondering why my ammonia has stalled for 3+ weeks.

 

Welcome to FishLore!

You cycled your tank with 2 Platy's. So you only had enough ammonia converting bacteria to handle the amount of ammonia the two Platy's were producing, (The bacteria population only grows to the size there is enough food for, excess bacteria will starve off). So when you added the four cories, the increased the amount of ammonia being produced, but not enough bacteria to process it. Normally your bacteria colony would grow large enough to handle all the ammonia being produced. This is known as a mini-cycle. But I say normally because...

You also suddenly have 1ppm of ammonia in your tap water. So this too is raising the ammonia level in your tank. A fully cycled tank should be able to process the 1ppm of ammonia in your tap water, along with the ammonia your fish produce within 24 hours.

So if you stuck with me this long, here's my recommended solution:
Switch to using SeaChem Prime as your water conditioner. A standard dose of Prime has the ability to detox (detox: to put ammonia in a state not harmful to fish, but still in a state that can feed the bacteria) for 24 hours. So once your bacteria colony grows large enough to process the ammonia in your tap water within 24 hours, your fish will not be exposed top toxic ammonia.

So now is where it gets tricky. Normally I would tell you to test daily and if ammonia+nitrite were less than or equal to 1ppm just add enough Prime to treat the entire tank volume. If ammonia+nitrite is greater than 1ppm do a 50% water change with enough Prime to treat the entire tank volume. But since you have 1ppm of ammonia in your tap water, if your ammonia level is over 1ppm, a water change will not help. So you may want to target 1.5ppm.

With that said, if it were me, I would add a bottle of Tetra SafeStart+ (TSS+) to the tank. TSS+ is a bottle of the bacteria that you are trying to develop. If you choose to use this method (which is easy and no work, so I love it) here's what you'll want to do. Get a bottle of TSS+ large enough to treat your tank (don't worry if it will treat a larger tank, you can't overdose). Make sure at least 24 hours have past since the last time you added water conditioner (this is very importnat.) Then add the entire, well shaken bottle of TSS+ to the tank. Now do nothing for the next 14 days (no water changes, no adding chemicals...nothing) other than lightly feed your fish. On day 14 test your water and if all worked correctly...congrats, you've got a cycled tank.

Best of luck!

Thanks. I had read about the mini-cycle, which is why I added only 4 cories instead of the recommended minimum school of 6. I figured I would let the tank catch up before I added more fish but then I ran into the problem of the fish dying and the ammonia spike.

Giving this some thought, if my tap has 1.0 ppm in ammonia and I have 3 julii living in there, does the fact that the tank also has 1.0 ppm in ammonia mean that whatever ammonia the julii are producing is being nitrified? Shouldn't the tank's ammonia be way above the 1.0 level of the tap water? I haven't done a water change in about a week now. I was going to do a water change mid-week but then discovered the 1.0 ppm level in the tap and stopped.

FYI - I now have a bottle of Prime that I will be adding to the tank. I was also eyeing Dr. Tim's Nitrifying Bacteria but read people say that it and Tetra are useless. Do you find good results with Tetra Safestart?
Giving this some more thought. Is it possible that my tank has been cycled all along but the utility company’ switch to chloramine triggered the ammonia test? The chloramines are then harmful to the fish and can’t be broken down by the bacteria without an effective conditioner to break apart the chlorine and ammonia bond. The API Tap Water Conditioner that I was using was ineffective on the chloramines. So my tank always showed 1.0 ppm. Do chloramines affect beneficial bacteria? I guess I will test the tank again later today after giving Prime some time to work.

 

Thanks. I had read about the mini-cycle, which is why I added only 4 cories instead of the recommended minimum school of 6. I figured I would let the tank catch up before I added more fish but then I ran into the problem of the fish dying and the ammonia spike.

Giving this some thought, if my tap has 1.0 ppm in ammonia and I have 3 julii living in there, does the fact that the tank also has 1.0 ppm in ammonia mean that whatever ammonia the julii are producing is being nitrified? Shouldn't the tank's ammonia be way above the 1.0 level of the tap water? I haven't done a water change in about a week now. I was going to do a water change mid-week but then discovered the 1.0 ppm level in the tap and stopped.

FYI - I now have a bottle of Prime that I will be adding to the tank. I was also eyeing Dr. Tim's Nitrifying Bacteria but read people say that it and Tetra are useless. Do you find good results with Tetra Safestart?
Giving this some more thought. Is it possible that my tank has been cycled all along but the utility company’ switch to chloramine triggered the ammonia test? The chloramines are then harmful to the fish and can’t be broken down by the bacteria without an effective conditioner to break apart the chlorine and ammonia bond. The API Tap Water Conditioner that I was using was ineffective on the chloramines. So my tank always showed 1.0 ppm. Do chloramines affect beneficial bacteria? I guess I will test the tank again later today after giving Prime some time to work.

I use API TWC as well to remove chloramines. It shouldn't affect an established tank anyways. In terms of removing chloramines, Prime is just a more diluted sodium thiosulfate solution than API so you are paying more money for less. Can't say much about the ammonia binding properties though, Seachem themselves don't even know how it works.

The constant ammonia reading is probably due to too much poop or leftover food in the tank. It's also possible the tank pH is low.... How much substrate do you have? There needs to be enough surface area for the bacteria to grow

 

I love, love love Tetra SafeStart and have used it several times, and each time it cycled my tank within 14 days.

Chloramine is a compound coompsoed of chlorine and ammonia. Water companies use chloramine because it doesn't evaporate off on it own like chlorine will. The reason chlorine/chloamines is added to tap water is to kill bacteria so...One would think it would kill off your benificial bacteria.

As far as I know, all water conditioners on the merket will remove choramines. But the advantage of using Prime is that when the water conditioner breakes the chlorine/ammonia bond, not only does it remove the chlorine like the other water conditioners, but it also detoxes the ammonia for 24 hours.

I meant to add in yesterdays post, that the test where you used way to much water conditioner may have showed little to no ammonia because you dilutered the water so much, there wasn't much ammonia left.

 

So as an update, I did about a 30% water change yesterday but I dosed the new water for 2x the amount for the full tank. Seacham says to use 5 ml for a 50 gallon tank but you can use 2x for high chloramines, and 5x in an emergency for high nitrites. So I used 4 ml for our 20 gallon tank. This morning the ammonia is still 1.0 and 0.0 for nitrites. I then 2x-dosed our tap water with Seacham and got 0.5 ppm in ammonia. I don't think I tried double dosing with API Tap Water Conditioner, so that's not a commentary on one being more effective than the other. Attached is a picture of from left to right: tank water, 2x Prime treated tap water, and nitrites.

So now I know that I have a higher ammonia reading in my tank than the water that I'm putting in. I'll take another reading this evening. Maybe I'll give a good gravel vacuum today. FYI - I have 20 lbs of gravel in the 20 gallon standard (or high) tank. I also have 5 plastic plants (3 tall and 2 short) and a mid-tank-height manufactured rock cave. I am planning to swap the cave out though for a piece of driftwood that I've been soaking for 2 weeks now.

As for 2x-treated tap water, do I need to be concerned with the 0.5 ppm reading? Is there a way that I can tell if the reading is from untreated chloramines or ammonia levels after Prime broke down the chloramine?

 

Is there a way that I can tell if the reading is from untreated chloramines or ammonia levels after Prime broke down the chloramine?

I do think there are tests that can tell the difference between different types of ammonia. The API test is not one of them. It just measures total ammonia whether it be ammonia or ammonium.

To be perfectly honest I think you may be overthinking this. Prime will detox low levels of ammonia. If you are seeing .5 ammonia in your tank and water changes are going to raise that level then just hold off on doing a water change and let the bacteria get to work.

jdhef and lots of others have had success with tetra safe start plus. The thing is you have to follow the directions to a tee for it to work as it should. Wait at least 24 hours after adding your water conditioner. Add a well shaken appropriate size bottle of TSS+ and then if fish are in the tank do nothing for 14 days. If it is a fishless cycle test for ammonia and add as needed but do nothing else.

If the TSS+ has worked as well as it is suppposed to work the tank will be cycled at the end of the 14 days.

 

I wanted to circle back and close the loop on my post and thank everyone for their comments. I took everyone's advice and decided to just wait and see. The tank's ammonia levels fluctuated between 0.25 ppm and 1.0 for the last 2-3 weeks, as did my tap water depending on the day. Whenever high, I just did a water change. Last week ammonia dropped to zero, where it has stayed. The nitrites remained 0.0 the entire time. I used Prime for my water changes and may just alternate between Prime and the API TWC that I have remaining. I added a small bottle of Tetra Safe Start Plus, as well as a couple of live plants after reading that the plants use some of the fish waste as fertilizer. I also discovered that the bulb to start my gravel vacuum had such a narrow diameter that my vacuum didn't do a good job of cleaning up waste until I removed the bulb. I also confirmed that boiling tap water for 20 minutes gets rid of chloramines (I tested ammonia levels of tap water from the same pot before and after boiling), although I never resorted to using boiled water for water changes.

I'm also happy to report that all the false julii survived. So I'll be adding some fish ... maybe some male fancy guppies along with some more false julii to increase their numbers.

Anyway, thanks again for the advice. Cheers.

 

Thank you for the update. I love reading happy endings