Help With Charlie

Discussion in 'Freshwater Fish Disease' started by Sahrynar, Apr 14, 2017.

  1. Sahrynar

    Sahrynar Valued Member Member

    I'm starting a new post but this is all connected to my previous post, Help!!! Betta Pineconing!, which @CindiL has been helping me with. Long story short I just lost a female betta, Bella, and I want to make sure I'm doing everything I can to keep my male, Charlie, healthy.
    I've just finished two rounds of API General Cure and will be doing a 50% water change and round 1 of Tetra Fungus Guard tonight. I just wanted to post some pictures of Charlie to make sure he's looking ok. I'm trying to determine if his scales are slightly protruding or if they're ok. I don't know if I'm paranoid bc of Bella or if I'm actually seeing something. 20170414_210203.jpg 20170414_210048.jpg 20170414_210041.jpg 20170414_203949.jpg 20170414_203428.jpg 20170410_125813.jpg
    Oh and I just noticed this, which I think is his poop (there's only snails aside from him in there and theirs doesn't look like this), and thought it looked a little weird? Or am I paranoid again? :S 20170414_210325.jpg Any comments and help is greatly appreciated!!!
     
  2. Tanks and Plants

    Tanks and Plants Well Known Member Member

    I would trust what cindiL tells you, she is very knowledgeable in a lot of areas. As for the poop it looks like your fish took a poop that must have felt good. Hopefully that poop will help with the bloat.
     
  3. OP
    OP
    Sahrynar

    Sahrynar Valued Member Member

    Sorry to keep bothering you, @CindiL...
    If anyone else has any input as well it would be greatly appreciated, to take the burden off CindiL...
    Thanks
     




  4. AngelTheGypsy

    AngelTheGypsy Fishlore VIP Member

    One or two of the photos look like they *might* show slight pineconing, but he is very bloated. Have you been fasting him? I would start that immediately if you haven't. I would also do the epsom baths as Cindi prescribed, and stop any aquarium salt. AQ salt can cause fluid retention, making the bloat worse. Fins are definitely secondary right now.

    You may want to get the kanaplex, to at least have it on hand since it would take a while for you to get it.

    Cindi really is the dr. Around here, and I've learned what I know from here. I would start following all the advice she gave you for your female. Maybe this time since he's not so bad off you can get him better.

    I would also not move him to a divided tank until this is resolved. It seems very likely it's contagious.
     
  5. CindiL

    CindiL Fishlore Legend Member

    Hi, somehow I was never notified of this one. This happens to me sometimes. If I don't ever respond feel free to message or tag me again as I wouldn't just not answer, lol.

    I agree that on a couple of the pics he looks a tiny bit pineconed. Its so slight that I couldn't tell if it was a figment of my imagination or if he just has bumpy scales.

    I agree with the advice @AngelTheGypsy gave you. Use the epsom, don't use salt, get some kanaplex and have it on hand.
    Though TFG is the best for external infections it has more limited use for internal infections which are often the cause of dropsy.

    I don't think I see the bloat which usually shows in their front area by the pectoral fins. If anything I thought he looked awfully thin (his body compared to his head) or I suppose it could be that he is bloated which is making his body look thin? What are you feeding him for his meals?
     
  6. OP
    OP
    Sahrynar

    Sahrynar Valued Member Member

    Oh ok thank you!!! I was afraid I was bothering you too much!
    So if he is very slightly pineconed, what is my best course of action? Should I be giving him the same epsom baths that I was giving the female (1/2 tablespoon per gallon 2x day for 60 minutes was it?)? I just did round 2 of TFG yesterday - should I do PraziPro instead? If so, should I get rid of the TFG somehow?
    I have KanaPlex, Tetra Fungus Guard, PraziPro, API General Cure, and some Jungle Lifeguard "all-in-one-treatment" 20170419_195247.jpg that I got by accident. Plus epsom & aquarium salt of course.
    Could it be internal parasites that are making him thin?
    Lately I've been feeding him 3 pellets two times a day but I try most days to give him brine shrimp instead for one feeding. I used to feed him waay too much but have been feeding him this amount for a while now. I'm working on getting him some more of a variety of frozen foods too.
    Or should I be fasting him right now too?

    Oh and he's the only fish that I have at home now.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 27, 2017
  7. CindiL

    CindiL Fishlore Legend Member

    I'd put 1/4 tsp dissolved epsom per 5g in his regular tank.

    I think you can hold off on the epsom baths unless he's getting worse.
    Is he eating? Showing any symptoms? Those photos were from several days ago, how does he look and act now?

    I hate to tell you to treat him with kanaplex if he's not sick, though if he shared her tank (I can't remember) then its not altogether a bad idea.

    Prazi pro can be used any time as an anti-parasitic.

    I'd do a 50% water change before using kanaplex or anything else.
     
  8. OP
    OP
    Sahrynar

    Sahrynar Valued Member Member

    I have a nerite, ramshorn & Malaysian Trumpet snails in with him - should I take them out first or will they be ok?
    He seemed slightly less active the last few days, but still eating well and today when I was taking pics he almost jumped out of the tank. Other than that and the scales, he seems to be ok. Still swims around his tank throughout the day. Here are some pics: 20170419_221815.jpg 20170419_221706.jpg 20170419_221652.jpg 20170419_221450.jpg
    They did share a tank around Christmas, a different one than he's in now, although she had been in the same tank he's in now previously.
    So what do you think I should do? Epsom salt & PraziPro or KanaPlex? Epsom with KanaPlex too? Should I do a 50% WC with either? Or am I ok to leave the TFG in and just add PraziPro & epsom?
    Sorry I'm so confused!

    Oh and should I keep feeding him?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 27, 2017
  9. CindiL

    CindiL Fishlore Legend Member

    I would do epsom salt and kanaplex. I do see slight pineconing in the first recent picture. I would also do GC at the same time or Metroplex if you have that. GC has metronidazole in it. Hopefully the two of those will stop whatever it is, though if she died from iridovirus then there is no cure. I would still treat in case its bacterial as we don't really know what she died from.

    Yes, keep feeding him, unless its my eyes, I don't see a lot of bloating and believe me i know as some of my girls are REALLY fat/bloated. The amount you are feeding him sounds good. Make sure to give him that brine shrimp for at least one meal a day. I think that large poop he put out was probably brine shrimp partially, nothing to worry about.

    Do a water change before the medications if you haven't done one in the last 5 days or so.
     
  10. OP
    OP
    Sahrynar

    Sahrynar Valued Member Member

    Ok so I should do a water change (50% or??), then add KanaPlex, General Cure, and epsom salt? Do I do that all over again after 48 hours? What should I do 48 hrs after that? GC says to do 25% WC but KP says no water changes & up to 3 doses?
    (I don't have MetroPlex - is GC good enuf or should I get MetroPlex?)
    I added epsom salt a few days ago, will it be ok to add the same amount (1/8 tsp for 2.5gal) again after the WC?
    Should I also soak his food in KanaPlex & GC?
    So no PraziPro right now?
     
  11. CindiL

    CindiL Fishlore Legend Member

    Yes, do a water change, replace the epsom you have removed and dose the medicines, kanaplex and general cure. I'd skip the water change after 48 hours and do one after four days instead, then do another four days of the medicines. You dose both every other day right? If he is improving ( the dropsy) I would do 4 doses of each.

    The snails should be fine with those meds.
     
  12. OP
    OP
    Sahrynar

    Sahrynar Valued Member Member

    Ok so after a 50% WC I did epsom, General Cure and KanaPlex tonight. Yep, it says to repeat every 2 days.
    So in 48 hrs I'll do it all again (except the epsom, right? I only add more epsom after a WC, right?) Then 48 hrs after that I repeat with 50% WC if he's doing better? What if he looks the same?
    Should I also put KanaPlex in his food? What about the General Cure? It's already in his water with the KanaPlex but that says to add a measure to a tbsp of frozen food. It doesn't say anything about putting the GC in food. If I add tank water & KP to his food, will he have too much KP? Sorry, this dosing is confusing! :(
     
  13. CindiL

    CindiL Fishlore Legend Member

    Don't re-do the epsom after 48 hours, only with water changes.

    Repeat after 4 days either way though I am hoping he is looking better so we can tell its working.

    I do think its a good idea to soak some food in the medicines and let it dry out and then feed it to him. You can mix both medicines together in a small container, soak the food for a minute or so, until they're just expanded, remove and dry them out, pour the medicine into his tank. I don't think he'll be getting too much medicine as this is how its always recommended to be done.
     
  14. OP
    OP
    Sahrynar

    Sahrynar Valued Member Member

    Today was the 2nd dose of GC & KP for Charlie. After another 48 hours I'll be doing the 50% WC & start over with those two & epsom. Here are some pictures from tonight: 20170423_220419.jpg 20170423_220200.jpg 20170423_220049.jpg 20170423_215716.jpg 20170423_215651.jpg 20170423_215611.jpg 20170423_215439.jpg 20170423_215431.jpg
     
  15. CindiL

    CindiL Fishlore Legend Member

    What do you think? Seems like his scales look better from the top view.
     
  16. OP
    OP
    Sahrynar

    Sahrynar Valued Member Member

    I think so - I hope so! He is acting the same as always, as far as I can tell. Of course, so did Bella until about 48 hours before she started pineconing... :(
    Here is a pic from about 6 months after I got him: 036c37ade8b1c266a2687a3b689903d0.jpg he's way fatter bc I was feeding him too much. Now I'm hoping he's just skinny bc maybe I fed him too little - I was only feeding him 2 pellets 2x a day for a while. But his scales are very smooth on the one side but very slightly bumpy on the other...is it wishful thinking, or can bettas sometimes have slightly bumpy scales normally?
    What does everyone else think about the last pictures after starting treatment compared to the first batch? Or is no one else reading this thread? lol
     
  17. CindiL

    CindiL Fishlore Legend Member

    I do think it looks better at least with these pics. @Dragones5150918 has a good eye, lets see what she says too.
     
  18. Dragones5150918

    Dragones5150918 Well Known Member Member

    This is what I see and I marked them.

    5a802c5f80111b657ada7aa057209ead.jpg

    Looking at the size of the abdominal cavity, he looks a little bloated. The cavity vs the amount of flesh at and around the spine is distinct, which is causing the look of bloat. It could be bloat or caused by rapid weight loss.

    2a1f23b8f1420f1ba45d66dccfd9432b.jpg

    With the distinctive C around the cavity is why everyone is calling bloat or parasites. Honestally I would too.

    2b82d852921e3013ebe09474cb6ea93f.jpg

    With the swim bladder now really showing, I'm inclined to say it's one of two things. Bacterial or rapid weight loss. I'm doubting it's bacterial giving the fact of all the medications he's taken. I'm leaning more towards rapid weight loss, especially with the Epson salt baths he has been having.

    My recommdation is stop all treatments, soak his food in garlic guard and vitamins to boost his immune system a bit. Feed him 3 soaked pellets twice a day, until the distinctive C is less apparent, then resume normal feeding habits.

    If CindiL has other suggestions, I would recommend you to follow her over mine. She be the guru!
     
  19. CindiL

    CindiL Fishlore Legend Member

    I agree with the meds any bacterial issues should be on their way out and more food soaked in garlic guard is a good idea.
     
  20. Dragones5150918

    Dragones5150918 Well Known Member Member

    Cindi, I've been thinking about this fish all day, and I think I have a theory of what is happening. I think from all the Epson salt baths he been in, I'm thinking he might be dehydrated. lol Now that sounds like a start of a good joke.....My fish was so dehydrated..... No, but really that is what I think is going on. Every place that has a buldge, like the swim bladder and stomach cavity looks like bloat and the start of pineconing. What if it's actually dehydration from all the Epson salt removing the fluids of his system. Kind of like ODing on water pills type thing. And his skin is tight because the lack of fluids, which is causing the look of bloat and pineconing.

    I never thought I would be using Fish and Dehydration in the same comment.

    So what do you think Cindi. Am I possibly onto something?
     
  21. OP
    OP
    Sahrynar

    Sahrynar Valued Member Member

    I may have just fed him b4 those pictures as well - I can't remember if it was b4 or after...
    Ok so should I not do the 4th round of GC & KP tomorrow? No more salt either?
    Should I add a carbon filter right now to take them out?
    I've been adding "garlic juice" (pressed/chopped garlic with a little water added) to his food as often as possible. Is that ok or is Garlic Guard a lot better?
    What vitamins do you suggest?
    I've been feeding him brine shrimp as often as possible - or are pellets a better idea? Or is it ok to do one feeding of pellets and one of shrimp each day?
    So the way his swim bladder is showing right now, can it only be bacterial or rapid weight loss? Or could it still be something else?
    I wouldn't be surprised of weight loss, but I'm just paranoid it's more than that :S Although he also used to be in a community tank where he inhaled whatever he could and now has been in his own for a few months...but am I not feeding him enough now?
    Thank you both so much for your help! I'm such a worry wart!

    Thank you for thinking about him! :) I'm SOO grateful for all your input! I can't believe how hard this has been trying to get him back to normal!
    I've never actually done epsom baths for him, only added 1/8 tsp to his 2.5 gallon tank - or is that the same thing/just as bad? :S
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 27, 2017




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