Help! Store advice under scrutiny...

Greetings,

This is my first post on this forum. After thinking about buying an aquarium for a few years, I decideed to buy one when a 20 gallon tank with Aqua Clear filter and submersible heater was offered to me for a great price.

6 days ago I set up my tank, following the pet store's instruction. They told me to add the water conditionner (to remove the chlorine and chloramine) and to add cycle. At this point, I didn't know what these products were used for but simply followed the instructions. The tank reached my desired temperature and everything seemed fine.

After talking to 5 or 6 people at various pet stores and aquarium shops, they seemed to be saying the same thing: wait 3 to 5 days, then slowly introduce fish, starting with 3 tetras.

When the fifth day came, I went out and purchased 3 Columbian Tetras. My intention is to eventually have 5 or 6, 2 Balloon Rams and a bottom dweller. The fish went in the tank and all was well.

I took advantage of some spare time to do some reading on the internet about tank cycling. To my surprise, my method is not the most ethical and advised since it will ultimately stress the fish.

After 24 hours in the tank, two of my tetras are gasping for air at the surface and their fins are frayed. Had I known of the fishless cycle methods, I would of pursued this method in favor of a more ethical approach to fish care.

I'm not sure what to do at this point. I took a sample and got it tested for ammonia and it read 0.20 ppm. Also, the store told me to add Prime to detoxify the ammonia and nitrite.

I've done a 15% water change since then and added the Prime. One of the Tetras looks very healthy (the larger one) and the other two are getting worse. My temp is 76F and pH is 6.7. I have only fed them twice in two days, and very small amounts (eaten under 20 seconds). Also, I have soaked my filter sponge in the store's filter sponge water in hopes of boosting bacteria growth.

What should I do? Any advice appreciated. I really dislike seeing the fish suffer like that.

Thanks,

Julien

 

HI and welcome to fishlore!
sorry to hear your having problems with your new tank. I'm glad that you have done your research, even tho its after you got your fish, at least now you know that something is wrong and what to do to correct it.
Your ammonia is way too high and that is more than likely poisoning the fish. Have you checked your nitrates and nitrites as well? Your tank is not cycled yet as you know so now that you do have fish in the tank, you have to take steps to help them. I do not believe that 15% water change is enough at this point. With the high ammonia, you are more than likely also having a high nitrite and nitrate reading all of which is very toxic to the fish. I would do a 50% water change asap. And continue to do regular water changes til your tank cycles, which is just going to take time. Prime is a good water conditioner to add to the tank when doing a water change. But in the short course of action, I would do that water change soon...test the water again and see what the test results are. Another 50% water change may be warranted at that point as well.
good luck with your tank and fish!
~ kate

 

Thanks,

I did the water change, but the two sick fish look almost dead. They're just fidgetting at the top...barely any fins left ???

Are they going to recover? Should I end their suffering?

I was also wondering what caused a 0.20 ppm Ammonia level, and why all the people working at the fish store don't seem to have this problem with new tanks?

Thanks,

J

 

Is the only fish in your tank the 3 columbian tetras? Your ammonia level may have shot up due to debris in the tank, such as fish waste.. food...etc. Tho it seems that it would take awhile for that few fish to produce such a large amount of ammonia. I would do that water change again, as I mentioned more than the 15% that you did, since that is not going to be enough to start that ammonia level to drop and you need to get that down asap because your fish will not last long with that high of an ammonia reading.What I do not understand is why they are having fin loss tho. Are they nipping at each other being aggressive?
~ kate
PS. The water in the LFS continually flow from one tank to the other and is constantly changing the water all the time. Unlike our home aquariums unless you are using a RO filter ( reverse osmosis).

 

Thanks capekate,

I was reading that fin loss and frayed are signs of fish stress often attributed to ammonia. They're really sickly looking. They're right under the surface gasping for air. I did the 50% water change...

What I don't understand is why the larger of the 3 tetras is perfectly fine, swimming in the middle as he should be and his colors havn't changed (whereas the other two have lost almost all color in the tail)

As for the store I was referring to the fact that they tell people it's ok to add fish after 48 hours of the tank being filled, and apparantly, they don't have any trouble with it.

Julien

 

The ammonia is caused by fish waste, and without a cycled tank you have no beneficial bacteria colony to convert the ammonia into nitrite then nitrate. Fish stores would and do have this problem, fish stores a lot of the time, especially big box ones tend to have staff that don't really know what they are talking about for one, or for two don't care and are in the business to sell fish. Yours die, you buy new ones etc. The one thing I noticed in your post is that you pour water on your sponge, are you not running your filter yet? as it should be soaked in water already with the current running through it!!

Your filter is the prime place for you new and growing bacteria colony, keep it running at all times. That is basically the prime home for your bacteria that work to keep your fish safe.

There are basically a few ways of starting a tank.

One which most fish stores wrongly push, start with a few fish and let them ride out the cycle, performing waterchanges very frequently to keep the fish from being poisoned.

Two fishless, getting more and more common thankfully as your fish don't take the hit to make your colony.

Three starting out with products like bio-spira, which are suppost to instantly start you with a colony and a few fish off the start. I have never tryed it but it from what I have read does work.

And Four starting out with a very heavily planted tank with mature media or mature filters from other tanks. The filter thing can be applied to speed up the process on the first too options as well. The plants very effectively eat up the toxins keeping your fish safe from the effects of cycling, must have a fast growing and substantial amount of plants for this to work though. Helps all through the life of the tank keeping your water much more fish friendly. But this method is not one I would push off the start to someone starting there first tank. I would more recommend the fishless, or if you are the type that just can't handle the wait the bio-spira method. And slowly learn how to grow and take care of your fish and plants. But it can never hurt to add some plants no matter what method you choose, as they are a great filter and just plain easy to look at and the fish love them.

But for the time being keep a very close eye on your ammonia, and nitrite, if you see them at all change water right away, or even better try to change some water before they spike. Once your tank is cycled ie ammonia has spiked then nitrite has spiked you will start to see traces of nitrate, which is the safest of the toxins, your tank will have cycled at that point.

You at this point can start your weekly tank maintenance, of a water change each week. And every few weeks clean your filter media in a bucket of the extracted tank water, don't mash it either you will kill bacteria, just clean it up and get it back in and going again. Never over clean your filters or use tap water, the chlorine etc will kill the bacteria, always use tank water that you have extracted to clean your media.

I hope all goes well with your fish, and its a good call to add more coloumbian blue reds once safe to do so, as they really like to be in groups as all tetras do, and the more you can group of species in tetras, instead of 2 of a few different kinds the happier your fish will be.

 

HI Julien
The LFS seem to tell a lot of folks that, including myself. I guess they think that you can cycle with fish, if you follow the correct procedure. They are also in the business of selling fish and sometimes there are just those cases of sales people not knowing what they are talking about. I have cycled with fish and without fish, and I can say that it is a lot easier to cycle without fish. The time that I did cycle with fish I was doing water changes and taking water readings every day in order to not let that ammonia level rise. It can be done and has been done. I think that if you continue to keep up with the water changes every day til you get rid of that ammonia and then continue to do water tests and wc's your fish should be ok. I believe that they are sick due to the ammonia poisoning already and if they were weak to begin with, they may not make it as you know. Your one guy is bigger and must be more hardy but that can change very quickly in time. I really wish you good luck with the fish and hope that they make it. They can bounce back quickly with good water quality. I wouldnt add anymore fish to the tank til it cycles.
~ kate

 

Yes Kate and most times too even if the fish survives a full on new tank cycle, which many do, but they are usually never as strong as a fish that hasn't had to go though that. They tend to be more prone to illness and usually don't live as long as there gills are weaker etc.

 

Thanks for all the help,

My filter has been running for 5 days before I introduced any fish. When I saw that they were looking sick, I went to the store and got some of his sponge water in a bag and then soaked my sponge in that water. The filter was only off for 5 minutes total.

Not to be too blunt, but should I kill the two sick fish? They really don't look good. I feel like starting over...but ultimately want to do what is best for the fish.

I have access to Bio-Spora. Can I still use this with fish in my tank? WIll the fish get healthy with healthy water?

My plan for this tank is as follows:

A small school of Tetras, 5-7 (In this case, Columbian Tetras...they seem to be a bit bigger than most tetras?)

Dwarf Cichlids: 2 Balloon Rams or German Blue Rams. Male and Female, perhaps a 2nd female if the tank allows

Bottown Dwellers: 1-2 small catfish or maybe a shrimp or two.

Thanks,

J

 

Oh and I just noticed you stating water conditioner, ALWAYS ALWAYS make sure any water that goes into your tank (as you are already doing) is treated, with what ever product you choose aqua plus etc. Chorine and chloramine has to be killed off from your water source before going into your tank.

But other products like cycle I personally find they are a gimick. My opinion mind you, but I really feel they do nothing.

But basically that was about the only good advice they gave you in the water conditioner, its a must at every stage of your tank, cycled or cycled.

 

Yes at this point the bio spira may be your best option, I personally have never used it, but I have heard from many that have and it worked for them. I can't get it were I live, so I have never tryed it. But its supposted to be a very good product, but it has to remain frozen until you use it, if it has thawed in transport its toast. Personally I would try it, and as far as your fish, I have taken tanks from neglectful owners that no longer wanted them and had some pretty horrid looking fish bounce back. But I don't know the state of your fish!! Hope all works out though.

And once you obtain a cycle through time or bio spira, don't slam a bunch of fish in as you can shock your cycle, add only a few at a time, and wait tell your bacteria gets used to the new load before adding more.

 

Oh and like said, I have never used bio spira, so I don't know its method, the only thing I have been told is fish have to go in within 24hrs of adding it for it to work. So I don't know if fish can be in etc, sorry about that, other members that have used it will be able to help you more on that. If they can't be in you may be able to bucket them up for a short time add the product then dump them back in etc. Good luck

 

Amonia levels are now reading 0.5 ppm, even after a 50% water change!

I'm not sure what is going on anymore. I put in the Prime, which is suppose to detoxify ammonia and nitrate. It says on their website that an ammonia test will still read the ammonia but that it is now not toxic...

The larger Columbian Tetra seems to be bullying the other two arround and nipping at their fins...not sure what that's all about.

Thanks,

Julien

 

Tetras from time to time will form a pecking order, and he is atm, the dominant fish. They are less nippy when you have a shoal of them as they kinda find comfort in numbers.

Basically all you can do atm, is keep doing water changes to keep those levels down. Or obtain some bio spira and follow the directions.

 

I was feeling a bit guilty over the two suffering fish and I got rid of them as ethically possible.

I gave my healthy Columbian Tetra to a local fish owner who has a scholl of them in a larger tank.

The bacteria have surely been growing in the filter since it's been 9 days running (3 of these days with fish). How would I continue the tank cycle at this stage? I've aquired some rocks from well established tanks which should help the process as well as some sponge "juice".

Should I keep introducing Ammonia by adding fish flakes once or twice a day? How will I know when the tank has fully cycled?

I will not introduce any fish until the cycle is complete and it's 100% safe for them.

Thanks,

J

 

HI J
the one sure way to know when you tank is cycled is by checking the water with tests to see what the readings are.
Simply put..
First you get your ammonia readings, then the nitrites will appear, then the nitrates will start, and you will have a nitrate spike, after that the nitrites will start to taper off to 0 and your ammonia will be at a 0 as well. Your nitrates will stay at a higher reading. You will not have to do any water changes now that you do not have any fish in your tank, but will have to do the water change to get your nitrates down after the tank cycles and just before you are ready to introduce fish. Your tank is cycled when you have ammonia 0; nitrite 0; and nitrate between 10-20.
Keep 'feeding' the tank with the fish flakes as you are doing, twice a day.. that will produce the ammonia that gets the rest going...Keep us posting on your progress and someone is always here to give you a hand, as we have all had to go through the cycle process.
good luck.. ~ kate

 

Thanks,

The good news is that I found a local fish shop that was honest about the process. I'll be dealing with them from now on. They have a lot of fresh water and Marine stuff. Very friendly staff with honest answer. They told me to keep checking for Ammonia and Nitrates, then to bring in the water when Nitrates have gone down.

Again, thanks.

J

 

great! i'm glad you found a store like that. they seem to be rare, unfortunately.