Help! Sick Muirus Puffer, He’s My Best Friend!

Tank

What is the water volume of the tank?20 gallon long
How long has the tank been running? Since March
Does it have a filter? Yes
Does it have a heater? Yes
What is the water temperature? 79
What is the entire stocking of this tank? (Please list all fish and inverts.)
1 muirus puffer “buckwheat”

Maintenance
How often do you change the water?
weekly

How much of the water do you change?
1/2

What do you use to treat your water?
Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water?
Substrate

*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish? Yes
What do you use to test the water? Master api
What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.

Ammonia:0
Nitrite:0
Nitrate:10 was a little high (about 30) before waterchange
pH:8.2

Feeding
How often do you feed your fish?daily
How much do you feed your fish? A few bites of raw shrimp or black worms along with homegrown feeders
What brand of food do you feed your fish?
Homegrown
Do you feed frozen or freeze-dried foods?
Frozen bloodworms once

Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this fish?a few months
How long ago did you first notice these symptoms? Yesterday

In a few words, can you explain the symptoms?
Darker color, , not burrowing, heavy breathing, lethargy, loss of appetite, stringy slime coat. Anus slightly open. And a few days before there was a pink ball like he may have prolapsed it. The two blood wins visible through his chin have gotten darker as well.

Have you started any treatment for the illness?
One dose of ich x I think the stringy slime coat is just a symptom caused by whatever’s wrong but it’s was the only thing I could think of at the time and I read that sometimes puffers don’t show signs of ich anywhere except their gills, which are difficult to get a good look at.

Was your fish physically ill or injured upon purchase? Seemingly no. But he was not kept well IMO
How has its behavior and appearance changed, if at all? He is normally looking like he does in my profile pic and is very active and inquisitive for an ambush puffer. but he just sort of flipped a switch yesterday and is the exact opposite he doesn’t burrow he doesn’t swim he doesn’t eat. it looks like he’s just starting to die for seemingly no reason.

Explain your emergency situation in detail. (Please give a clear explanation of what is going on, include details from the beginning of the illness leading up to now)

A few days ago buckwheat had a little pink ball under him like he had prolapsed his butt somehow.
It went away and I assumed it was just a pinkish poo or something but I never found a pink poo in the tank.
I fasted him for a day or two
But he was still acting normal at this point
Then I fed him the day before yesterday just a few blackworms and a peice of shrimp
Then yesterday when I came home from work he was just sitting on the sand real dark and real sad looking and breathing very heavy, I tried to feed him but he wouldn’t eat and he freaked out when I touched him with food which made me not want to bother him anymore then I had to. His anus is partially open and he has dark lines and spots all over him that aren’t normally there( puffers are very good at changing skin color so the spots themselves aren’t a symptom of anything besides stress) they also have little white dots on them that are spines and not ich dots.

But I can’t for the life of me know what’s causing him to go south so fast
it all came on so suddenly, I can’t stress how well I take care of this fish, he is my pal and I can even make him “sit” like a dog on the sand at dinner time, someone please help
pictures are below.

His water is always clean

I have well water so there is no chlorine but I use prime anyway

I vacuum his sand more then once weekly to get his poo out.

I vary his diet and coat his raw shrimp in fish flake so he gets some fiber(maybe not enough?)

He’s not showing many distinctive signs of anything besides that he is obviously stressed, could he have a parasite? I have meds for literally any situation I just can’t diagnose this fish, google is almost no help when it comes to puffers specifically this breed, everything I have learned has either been from experience or literally emailing other puffer keepers whom I have never even met. I always post here first just Incase someone can help me out he also seems to be having trouble with his swim bladder as when he does move it is very badly coordinated.


Line below chin, I believe this is possibly a puffer stress line. But it could just be a normal vein that is darker as I could always faintly see this line it was just much lighter


Dark spots on skin and slightly open anus(sorry if it’s gross but it is a symptom)
And he just kind of lays like that slanted to the side breathing heavy. Normally this fish is up at the glass literally making direct eye contact and begging for food.

If no one can help my plan is to treat for a parasite and hope he passes it or whatever is blocking him up and the treat with antibiotics to stave off internal infection from the damage left by the parasite if he improves.

I have already treated for ich so once that’s done that will literally be all I know to do for him.
If it’s not fungal bacterial or a parasite I don’t think there’s much to be done anyway as I said I keep his water perfect. the ph is higher than I want but the pet store has him in a five gallon with gravel for months and they have similar water parameters.

I just don’t understand how the little guy would be doing so good for so long at the store (I know because I visited him while researching his species) in such a small tank
And then I get him in what is considered an appropriate sized tank with real plants, take BETTER care of him and now he’s sick.

I knew from my research he would be a challenge just because of the lack of info out there, but I had no clue that I would be seemingly doing everything exactly right and then boom! out of nowhere major illness.

I also didn’t realize how quickly you get attached to these little guys so please if you can, help me.

If he passes I will have to determine the cause of death by autopsy because I cannot go forward in keeping puffers until I am absolutely sure that I did not cause this. I don’t want to do that (honestly still not sure if I could, or if I would even know what I’m looking at) but it will be the only way to know for sure I did everything I could, and can safely try to keep another puffer later on if things turn for the worst.

 

Yeah do parasite treatment I’m not sure whether an epsom bath or aquarium salt bath would help. Do the parasite treatment you could feed skinned cooked mashed peas and if it’s not eating dip them in garlic. It’s hard to diagnose without much physical symptoms just keep water clean best I got sorry I can’t help more.

 

pH is a bit high, as they prefer nuetral water (7.0 pH). It might be slime disease,
though I've not seen a Congo Puffer have it. It is parasitic, so your treating for
parasites seems a good idea.

 

pH is a bit high, as they prefer nuetral water (7.0 pH). It might be slime disease,
though I've not seen a Congo Puffer have it. It is parasitic, so your treating for
parasites seems a good idea.

Yes I think so as well but the pet store kept him in a similarly high ph for quite some time so I assumed a massive fluctuation would be worse, even if it were to the ph the internet says he prefers
which from my understanding any ph value you find in the internet just means it was the ph of the waters where the fish are generally caught and people generally don’t go around catching fish and taking water samples in the winter time. It doesn’t take into account a lot of variables, same with preferred temp. Cause water Temp definently fluctuates more then a range of 75-82 degrees in the Congo, especially at the bottom of it even in the summer, Maybe I’m wrong but I’d say you can treat ph similarly as I have bred Bettas at 8.2. And they supposedly prefer 7.0 as well. Thanks for the replies everyone,
he has started antI parasite meds

Yeah do parasite treatment I’m not sure whether an epsom bath or aquarium salt bath would help. Do the parasite treatment you could feed skinned cooked mashed peas and if it’s not eating dip them in garlic. It’s hard to diagnose without much physical symptoms just keep water clean best I got sorry I can’t help more.

Have you ever personally had success with peas? I have tried it many times with bloated fish and never got any actual results. I have seen many people reccomend it, and I even have recommended it to many people myself because I HEARD it works but I’ve never noticed it actually doing anything.
I could see the argument that more fiber in their diet would be better for bowel movements but in that case shouldn’t we feed bloated fish peas all the time for their whole lives? Because you wouldn’t really immeadiatley see a result, just gradually over time the fish would digest things better.
What do you think?
And also to re ask because I tend to ramble
Ever had peas work personally?

Upon further observation He does seem to have partial control of his swimming when he does it voluntarily so maybe it’s just a big blockage causing him trouble or the potential parasite finally got big enough to depress his swim bladder (feeding him as well as I have may have not been beneficial until after deworming)

 

Yes I think so as well but the pet store kept him in a similarly high ph for quite some time so I assumed a massive fluctuation would be worse, even if it were to the ph the internet says he prefers
which from my understanding any ph value you find in the internet just means it was the ph of the waters where the fish are generally caught and people generally don’t go around catching fish and taking water samples in the winter time. It doesn’t take into account a lot of variables, same with preferred temp. Cause water Temp definently fluctuates more then a range of 75-82 degrees in the Congo, especially at the bottom of it even in the summer, Maybe I’m wrong but I’d say you can treat ph similarly as I have bred Bettas at 8.2. And they supposedly prefer 7.0 as well. Thanks for the replies everyone,
he has started antI parasite meds

Gradual adaptation to pH, temperature and nitrate exposure are all
well and good, but, you still have to understand that even though the
fish may be able to live in these environments, it doesn't necessariy
mean there isn't added stress on the fish, which in turn makes the
fish more susceptible to disease.

As for the pet store, their job is to keep it alive until it's replaced
with money.... they are not as concerned with long term care as
we are. No disrespect to the LFS, but there's only so much they
can do with water parameters. A lotta different fish use that water.

Good luck with the puffer! They're cute little buggers.

 

Gradual adaptation to pH, temperature and nitrate exposure are all
well and good, but, you still have to understand that even though the
fish may be able to live in these environments, it doesn't necessariy
mean there isn't added stress on the fish, which in turn makes the
fish more susceptible to disease.

As for the pet store, their job is to keep it alive until it's replaced
with money.... they are not as concerned with long term care as
we are. No disrespect to the LFS, but there's only so much they
can do with water parameters. A lotta different fish use that water.

Good luck with the puffer! They're cute little buggers.

Thanks, I understand that, I guess my real point is how do we as hobbyists know what the ideal ph is for any given fish? It could be different on a fish to fish basis in the same species. Even a reputable source is probably just using one water sample from one group of fish taken during a certain time of year.
Like if you show me 50 tests run where puffers were kept at different ph’s with the various results/lifespans/general health and then told me their ideal ph, THAT I could work with. But for the most part every webpage I’ve been to just says some random range with no real verifiable source of info.
Like if I’m wrong here please call me on it,maybe there’s some crazy science behind ph levels and what they mean that I just haven’t been informed of yet. and I understand where your coming from about long term care. I’m just not informed enough to understand how we just know that the muirus puffer does good at 7 and struggles elsewhere on the scale. I’m not saying you shouldn’t keep fish at their suggested ph. In fact if my guy doesn’t have a parasite the high ph Could totally be causing him stress which opened him to disease.
I just don’t understand how we can know for sure what point in the scale is more and or less beneficial.

I feel like I’ve typed for so long I sound like a jerk lol
I’m more just saying what I believe so someone can go “that’s completely wrong and here’s why!” Or
“hmm I never thought about that.” Not trying to be argumentative in any way.

 

Thanks, I understand that, I guess my real point is how do we as hobbyists know what the ideal ph is for any given fish? It could be different on a fish to fish basis in the same species. Even a reputable source is probably just using one water sample from one group of fish taken during a certain time of year.
Like if you show me 50 tests run where puffers were kept at different ph’s with the various results/lifespans/general health and then told me their ideal ph, THAT I could work with. But for the most part every webpage I’ve been to just says some random range with no real verifiable source of info.
Like if I’m wrong here please call me on it,maybe there’s some crazy science behind ph levels and what they mean that I just haven’t been informed of yet. and I understand where your coming from about long term care. I’m just not informed enough to understand how we just know that the muirus puffer does good at 7 and struggles elsewhere on the scale. I’m not saying you shouldn’t keep fish at their suggested ph. In fact if my guy doesn’t have a parasite the high ph Could totally be causing him stress which opened him to disease.
I just don’t understand how we can know for sure what point in the scale is more and or less beneficial.

I feel like I’ve typed for so long I sound like a jerk lol
I’m more just saying what I believe so someone can go “that’s completely wrong and here’s why!” Or
“hmm I never thought about that.” Not trying to be argumentative in any way.

It's a discussion... it's where you discuss view points. No harm, no foul.

Large bodies of water like say.... Lake MalawI (Cichlids) is 2200 cubic miles
of water. The pH is VERY stable... The natural disaster needed to drop
that one full pH point suddenly probably will make the News. Temperatures vary,
but do so slowly, and fish can go to deeper water to find more stable
temperatures. The stability in a fish's natural environment is extremely stable.

Larger Aquariums are more stable than smaller Aquariums because of volume.
Aquarists prefer larger tanks (with sumps that add more volume) because the
environment is more stable, which keeps fish less stressed, and healthy.

Water parameters for fish are published either online, or in books. They
publish natural environment parameters for a very good reason. If you
want to question those numbers, or think they're inaccurate, that's your
choice. It's easier to say 'they'll adapt', and 'those numbers don't mean squat'
than to go through the chore of making your water meet those published
specs. I know my Cichlid tank had the right pH, water hardness and temperature
before my fish went in... The tank was specifically set up for Lake Victoria Cichlids.
It was a very successful tank. ONLY LV Cichlids went in.

Now, my Rainbow fish tank has the water parameters specifically for them.
If they get sick, I KNOW it's not the water conditions stressing fish to point
of illness. Peace of mind.

 

According to google the ph of lake MalawI can be anywhere from 7.7-8.6
How is that stable?
And if it takes so much to shift the ph of the body of water how is there a range of ph levels listed?
If a fish was free swimming in lake MalawI would he just know, hey don’t go over there the ph is higher on that side of the lake?
does the whole body of water share the same ph no matter how large?
In that’s case, Perhaps the listed range is the ph fluctuation throughout the seasons?

Also if you google the ph levels of mr buckwheats naturaul habitat you’ll come up with answers like 4.4 because environmental waste has destroyed the water quality.

That’s an extreme number and I’m relatively sure it was from a body of water with no fish in it but it’s still a ph range that came from the body of water this specific fish naturaully inhabits (or at least it used too) and there’s about a jillion different numbers you can get for the Congo river and surrounding bodies of water and they supposedly catch Congo puffers all throughout these areas


Basically all I’m saying is I would be happy to fine tune the ph of each tank to exactly the number the fish needs, but I have yet to come upon a reputable source with research based information that tells me exactly what that is, I don’t want a range I want dead on the number. There is a large difference in between 7.0 and 7.1 and each decimal point you go up the difference gets multiplicitively larger. So even saying 7.0-7.5 is basically like saying, yeah you can cook your turkey anywhere from 80- 1000 degrees You CAN cook a turkey at any of those temperatures with a distinct time variance but most people would say you cook it at 350 for 13 minutes per pound.


for the most part I just keep it stable and though I’ve yet to run into the problem if I did ever discover I was losing a type of fish due to my ph levels I would probably just stop keeping that species rather then trying to remove the buffer from my hard well water and adjusting the ph and then replacing the buffer.

 

Google is NOT the end all be all for information. Google is a search engine,
and Google gives your query to the highest bidder. Do actual research...

(I read it on the internet so it must be true.. ack!)

I'll end here... The research HAS BEEN DONE. Google doesn't bring it
up in a search, so it must not exist... I'm saying does, because I've read
books (square things with paper that has words on on it) for over 25 years
on fish keeping, and the fish I chose to keep. Google the library, go check it out.
Yeah there's lots of old people, but there's also a world of information Google
and Youtube have no idea exists.

Good luck treating your Congo Puffer... I DO hope everything works out for you.

 

I never said google was the end all be all of information, and I find your tone condescending.
All I did was ask honest questions. you don’t have to act like I don’t know what a book is, (I’ve probably read more then you but that’s besides the point)
If you didn’t want to answer me, you could just say something like “those are good questions why don’t you research it further and find your own answers” but instead you decide to pull the “I’m older I’ve been here longer and read more and you kids and your internet don’t know anything” card
So thanks,
For not much

 

....And this is just to prove I know what a book is.

 

I never meant to be condescending. As I said before, it was
a discussion. The biggest problem with text is the reader is
left to determine the writer's tone. To me, you seemed to be
getting defensive, and argumentative to defend your stance.
So I guess there was misinterpretation on both sides.

For what it's worth, I still hope you get your puffer back to health.

Sorry I tried to help... Good luck!

 

I don't know what part of CO you're in but if you're near Fort Collins you can take him to CSU. They have after hours urgent care.

If he ends up passing and you want a necropsy performed, refrigerate immediately after death and have the necropsy performed ASAP.

I see live plants. Are you by any chance using a liquid carbon product such as Excel?

Excess slime coat is sometimes a reaction to an environmental irritant.

I'm kind of sick myself so I glossed over the pH bit. I don't think that's the problem.

I also think a parasitic problem is somewhat unlikely.

I'm leaning towards water quality or something bacterial or mechanical (bowel obstruction, prolapse, etc.).

Lastly, the pea thing bothers me too. So many people recommend it, even in situations where it couldn't possibly work. And I don't think I've ever heard of it working.

 

According to google the ph of lake MalawI can be anywhere from 7.7-8.6
How is that stable?
And if it takes so much to shift the ph of the body of water how is there a range of ph levels listed?
If a fish was free swimming in lake MalawI would he just know, hey don’t go over there the ph is higher on that side of the lake?
does the whole body of water share the same ph no matter how large?
In that’s case, Perhaps the listed range is the ph fluctuation throughout the seasons?

Also if you google the ph levels of mr buckwheats naturaul habitat you’ll come up with answers like 4.4 because environmental waste has destroyed the water quality.

That’s an extreme number and I’m relatively sure it was from a body of water with no fish in it but it’s still a ph range that came from the body of water this specific fish naturaully inhabits (or at least it used too) and there’s about a jillion different numbers you can get for the Congo river and surrounding bodies of water and they supposedly catch Congo puffers all throughout these areas


Basically all I’m saying is I would be happy to fine tune the ph of each tank to exactly the number the fish needs, but I have yet to come upon a reputable source with research based information that tells me exactly what that is, I don’t want a range I want dead on the number. There is a large difference in between 7.0 and 7.1 and each decimal point you go up the difference gets multiplicitively larger. So even saying 7.0-7.5 is basically like saying, yeah you can cook your turkey anywhere from 80- 1000 degrees You CAN cook a turkey at any of those temperatures with a distinct time variance but most people would say you cook it at 350 for 13 minutes per pound.


for the most part I just keep it stable and though I’ve yet to run into the problem if I did ever discover I was losing a type of fish due to my ph levels I would probably just stop keeping that species rather then trying to remove the buffer from my hard well water and adjusting the ph and then replacing the buffer.

All I did in the above post was ask honest questions about ph in large bodies of water in order to find out more about my sick puffers ph requirements and good sources to get the info from, and the text afterwards is just me saying how I work with my ph levels.
If you misinterpreted that as argumentative that’s all well and good, but don’t pass the buck on me and say I misinterperated this

Google is NOT the end all be all for information. Google is a search engine,
and Google gives your query to the highest bidder. Do actual research...

(I read it on the internet so it must be true.. ack!)

I'll end here... The research HAS BEEN DONE. Google doesn't bring it
up in a search, so it must not exist... I'm saying does, because I've read
books (square things with paper that has words on on it) for over 25 years
on fish keeping, and the fish I chose to keep. Google the library, go check it out.
Yeah there's lots of old people, but there's also a world of information Google
and Youtube have no idea exists.

Good luck treating your Congo Puffer... I DO hope everything works out for you.

it is just blatantly a rude way to talk to someone. You can’t just speak like that to someone because your older. I afford all people respect no matter their age as long as they do the same for me.

Also if you could just stop posting here unless you have info relevant to the questions I am asking or the topic of the thread. That would be great.

I don't know what part of CO you're in but if you're near Fort Collins you can take him to CSU. They have after hours urgent care.

If he ends up passing and you want a necropsy performed, refrigerate immediately after death and have the necropsy performed ASAP.

I see live plants. Are you by any chance using a liquid carbon product such as Excel?

Excess slime coat is sometimes a reaction to an environmental irritant.

I'm kind of sick myself so I glossed over the pH bit. I don't think that's the problem.

I also think a parasitic problem is somewhat unlikely.

I'm leaning towards water quality or something bacterial or mechanical (bowel obstruction, prolapse, etc.).

Lastly, the pea thing bothers me too. So many people recommend it, even in situations where it couldn't possibly work. And I don't think I've ever heard of it working.

I do not use any additives for plants as buckwheat usually produces plenty. and we have well water

Suggested meds for blockage? I want to say erythromycin would help? It at least would if it was bacterial.

He’s already not eating so fasting is happening anyway

Before using medicine I had been running carbon on his filter with a prefilter sponge for large debris.
One more note is that I have noticed even on vids of other muirus puffers that they sometimes have a little excess slime when coming up from being burrowed in the sand so maybe the slime coat is not a symptom at all as it really is a small amount and he’s by no means covered?


since I have well water do you think that something could’ve happened to the water source the day of the waterchange? All my other fish are fine and on the exact same water change schedule. And yeah puffers are sensitive but all my pea puffers are also fine (aside from one who came from the store sick and is recieving treatment in a tank by itself) so I don’t think the water source could be the problem but I honestly couldn’t tell you for sure. my first resort with sick fish is always a waterchange and wait before I even consider meds.

Lastly did we just become best friends about peas and their medical applications towards fish?

 

I do not use any additives for plants as buckwheat usually produces plenty. and we have well water

Suggested meds for blockage? I want to say erythromycin would help? It at least would if it was bacterial.

suggests prolapse could be the result of infection. A search of Noga's fish disease book for "prolapse" results in one hit for a saltwater bacterial infection. Statistically, bacterial infections are only second to water quality when it comes to fish health.

Do you have anything other than erythromycin? It doesn't work well in a bath and he's not eating so unless you want to tube feed it to him... It's also really just an antibiotic for Gram positive bacteria while most bacterial infections of fish are Gram negative.

I think well water should be relatively stable so it shouldn't toxic one day and fine the next as is sometimes (but very rarely) possible with tap water.

It's really hard to diagnose fish disease without diagnostic equipment and just using your eyes. That's why I almost always recommend going to a vet.

If it were me, my #1 choice would be to go to a vet and #2 would be antibiotics in a hospital tank. Antibiotic treatment has its own nuances too--erythromycin is popular but mostly useless, Kanaplex needs to be dosed 17-34 times higher than recommended, etc. It seems nothing in this hobby is straightforward.

 

Thanks so much I will definently look into aquatic vets near me for the future. And further investigate antibiotic treatment for my fish friend as you suggest.

I’m pretty new to medicating and haven’t had to with most of my fish save a few petco Bettas. puffers have presented a whole new ball game as far as treatment/pretreatment and deworming etc.

I’m using the meds I’m using (ich x, general cure,erythromycin) because They are the ones I have the most info and experience with, albeit very little,
And being new to treatment and diagnosis of fish disease I liked the fact that it covered a wide range of things and I can use them all together without issues.

That being said

I have a lot of tetra products (not comfortable using them with him without knowing whether it’s okay) from Walmart. but my Lfs carries many different things ,and I have a tractor supply that has fish meds as well. so pretty much any and all suggestions are welcome because I probably won’t have to order it off the web.

 

Thanks so much I will definently look into aquatic vets near me for the future. And further investigate antibiotic treatment for my fish friend as you suggest.

I’m pretty new to medicating and haven’t had to with most of my fish save a few petco Bettas. puffers have presented a whole new ball game as far as treatment/pretreatment and deworming etc.

I’m using the meds I’m using (ich x, general cure,erythromycin) because They are the ones I have the most info and experience with, albeit very little,
And being new to treatment and diagnosis of fish disease I liked the fact that it covered a wide range of things and I can use them all together without issues.

So, erythromycin is the only antibiotic you have on hand? If so, you might as well try it since time is of the essence.

I would recommend:

• trimethoprim-sulfamethoxazole
• enrofloxacin
• ciprofloxacin
• kanamycin (huge doses needed)

Unfortunately, all of those would likely be hard to source locally. I always recommend stocking up ahead of time and ignoring expiration dates on non-liquid medications.

You'll need a lot of any antibiotic for a bath treatment. It's just that much less efficient than an injection or oral administration.

 

I also didn’t realize how quickly you get attached to these little guys so please if you can, help me.

Its been a while. I would like to know how your puffer is, please?

 

He died