Help me debug my (not cycling) fishless cycle

HI everyone, I'm struggling with a fishless cycle and getting some weird results. Hope some of the experts can shed some light on the issues.

Started with a brand new tank, substrate, purigem insert and bio material (using the Fluval Spec V tank)

Added treated water with Seachem. Waited 24 hours before introducing One and Only bacteria + 5ppm pure ammonia.

The numbers I'll give are Ammonia / Nitrites / Nitrates

Day 1: 3ppm / 0ppm / 0ppm
Day 2: 3ppm / 0ppm / 0ppm
Day 4: 2ppm / 0ppm / 0ppm
Day 5: 2ppm / 0ppm / 0ppm
Day 6: 4ppm / 0ppm / 0ppm (added more ammonia)
Day 7: 4ppm / 0ppm / 0ppm
Day 8: 3ppm / 0ppm / 0ppm
Day 9: 3ppm / 0ppm / 5ppm
Day 10: 3ppm / 0ppm / 5ppm

So it appears that NITRATES are showing up but ammonia is still high. And I never saw an increase in nitrite values.

What on earth is going on?

Should I do a water change? Can't seem to bring ammonia levels down.

 

Just keep waiting. Add a bottle of TSS (Tetra Safe Start) to boost it. My 2.5 took almost two months to cycle. Do you have any other tanks set up? If you do, take some gravel or filter floss and put it in the new tank. Maybe you have a friend with a tank? Ask if you could take a decoration from their tank for a few weeks. Just make sure whatever you use to seed your tank is from a clean, healthy environment.

 

Believe it or not, I added TSS 4 days ago as well.

No additional tank, so I'm waiting and frustrated because so many are cycling in 7-10 days.

Whats strange is the Nitrate levels up.

 

Nitrites sometimes don't show up on the test. Something about the bacteria that convert nitrites to nitrates being quicker to colonize than the ammonia to nitrites. Not sure I buy that explanation, it's entirely possible that the process takes less time!

I've also read that the TSS gives false readings for the first couple of weeks. It does appear that your tank is cycling, you just need a little more patience

 

+1 Aquaphobia ^

 

Hi, welcome to fishlore

Let the ammonia drop to 0 before re-dosing it. I wouldn't have recommended dosing it to 5.0 with Dr. Tim's one and only. I'm pretty sure he says to only dose to 2.0? I can't remember now. He was the creator of TSS+ also btw and you don't want to dose past 2.0 ammonia with live bacteria. It becomes toxic to them and inhibits the bacteria from multiplying.

I would just be patient and let the ammonia drop. It's not uncommon to see some nitrates and nitrites and ammonia all at the same time. In helping people with cycling I see that when they use TSS+ (similar to Dr. Tim's I'm sure) the nitrospira bacteria (nitrite converting) must be more plentiful then the nitrosonomas bacteria or more hardy because that is usually the first to complete. Normally without their bacteria, nitrites are the last to finish up because the bacteria take up to 36 hours to multiply vs nitrosonomas which take more along the lines of 12 I think.

 

Since nobody has asked yet what is your pH?

 

Thanks for the advice so far everyone.
slayer5590 - pH is around 7.8, water temp at 82°

I wanted to add that I use the correct amount of Seachem Prime when doing a water change. And I started using Stability in the last 5 days as well.

the latest numbers are:

Day 11: 1.5ppm / 0ppm / 10ppm
Day 12: 1.5ppm / 0ppm / 10ppm
Day 13: 1.0ppm / 0ppm / 10ppm (Stability daily now)
Day 14: 1.0ppm / 0ppm / 10ppm (water change)
Day 15: 1.0ppm / 0ppm / 10ppm (water change)
Day 16: 1.0ppm / 0ppm / 10ppm
Day 17: 1.0ppm / 0ppm / 10ppm (water change)

Ammonia refuses to drop below 1ppm. I've heard Prime gives off a "false" reading using API test kits but still, it should drop.

I tested the tap and am reading 0.25ppm of ammonia (barely), mixing prime into a test bucket of tap water yields the same result. So the ammonia is in the tank!

Thoughts on continuing the water change daily?

Note: I haven't added any more ammonia.

 

I would just let the water changes go at this point but keep testing and adding Stability. Are there any possible sources of ammonia in your tank? Hitchhiker snails maybe?

 

Negative. Only live plants and inert rocks.

Stop the water changes?

Thinking that adding 1ppm more of ammonia might be a good idea since ammonia seems to have stalled...

 

I don't think that adding more ammonia will "unstall" the cycle, if it has stalled there's got to be a reason. I would wait for the ammonia to drop to zero before redosing.

 

You don't need to do any more water changes I agree. You can put 1/2 the bottle of stability in today and another half in a couple of days. Don't re-dose the ammonia until it gets down to 0-.25.

If you post daily we'll keep an eye on how things are going. I'm assuming your nitrates are increasing?

 

Dose the stability using the directions on the bottle and you will be fine. Just make sure to shake it up really good. You want to see a white cloud come out of the cap when you put it in. If it doesn't shake it up some more.

 

I guess what's strange is that my ammonia is not dropping below 1ppm even after 5 days of Stability.

Nitrates are stable at 10ppm but there could be nitrate in the tap. I've never seen Nitrites.

The food is there, the bacteria isn't biting. Even after One and Only and TSS and now Stability.

Ps - my filter has the stock Fluval bio media and Purigem in the top slot. Wonder if the Purigen is messing things up.

 

It just takes time....I would put in 1/2 bottle of stability like I mentioned before. There is no reason not to and just wait after that. Test once a day, try and not be too frustrated.

 

No changes to ammonia so far.

Dumped more Stability.

Funny enough, seems the tap reads 0.50ppm ammonia.

Will fill up a bucket and dose with Prime to see what happens to the tap ammonia.

 

What did your test show?

Also, test your tap for nitrates. You may never see nitrites since you used TSS+.

You were doing a lot of water changes before and adding in ammonia then with each water change from your tap.

 

My ammonia has been stuck at 1ppm for the past few days or since this adventure started. It is simply not going down. At all.

Tap ammonia is at 0.50ppm

Tap nitrates are at 0ppm

Tank nitrates are at 10ppm

Should I do a water change with Prime?

(Tap ammonia with Prime is at 0.25ppm)

 

No, I wouldn't. If your tank is still at 1.0 ammonia I'd leave it. The fact that your tank is registering 10nitrates and your tap 0, tells us something is going on, which is good.

I'd just be patient. Sorry, that is all you can do. A "normal" without bacteria added fishless cycle can take 4-10, even up to 12 weeks. With bacteria is should be quicker but every water source is different.

What is your ph today and your temperature in the tank?

 

pH is 7.8 and temp is 83.5°

Strange that after all the TSS and Stability, the bacteria aren't hungry / feeding. Most likely, these products simply aren't helping in the establishment of bacteria vs. their claims.

 

I've never used TSS but I use Stability a lot. Works every time if you can get it shaken up. If you aren't getting a white cloud to your water when you put it in, you need to shake it some more.

 

I've never used TSS but I use Stability a lot. Works every time if you can get it shaken up. If you aren't getting a white cloud to your water when you put it in, you need to shake it some more.

Getting the white cloud and I've used up an entire bottle of Stability in the past 5-6 days. Seeing some bacterial clouds near my moss but they're not eating the ammonia! Yet...

 

Looks like we've got some Nitrite readings now. First time.

Ammonia 1ppm / Nitrites 2.0ppm / Nitrates 5.0ppm

 

Quick update today:

Ammonia 0.50ppm / Nitrite 5.0+ppm / Nitrate 10ppm

Asssuming we are now waiting for 0 ammonia and 0 nitrate before water change / cycle complete?

 

0 nitrite

 

Quick update today:

Ammonia 0.50ppm / Nitrite 5.0+ppm / Nitrate 10ppm

Asssuming we are now waiting for 0 ammonia and 0 nitrate before water change / cycle complete?

Well, the good news is you're now in the second phase of the cycle completion. Let your ammonia drop to 0-.25 and then give it an extra 24 hours without dosing to see if nitrites fall some, giving them (the nitrospira bacteria) time to catch up.

 

Ammonia down to 0.25ppm today
Nitrites high at 5.0+ppm

will keep it steady, no changes to the water.

 

Ok, good. Lets see where you're at in another 24 hours.

You're cycled when your ammonia can be converted in 24 hours to 0-ammonia and 0-nitrites after being dosed. I think you asked that yesterday.

 

Progress

ammonia 0ppm / nitrite 5+ppm / nitrate 30ppm

need those nitrates to eat the nitrites!! Ha

 

Nitrates don't eat the nitrites. Bacteria eat the nitrites and poop out the nitrates

 

Got it

seems like the the first set of bacteria (ammonia > nitrites) are everything
and the second set of bacteria (nitrites > nitrates) are working but a bit slower.

hoping to see the nitrite values drop soon.

 

Yeah that's usually how it goes unless you add TSS+ then usually the nitrospira bacteria (those that convert nitrites) are in greater population than the nitrosonomas (those that convert ammonia to nitrites).

I'd do a large water change, 75% and re-dose ammonia to 1.0 while we wait for nitrite converters to catch up.

 

Got it. Will do a big water change. Re-dose to 1.0.

I did TSS+ early on, should I just add more Stability after the water change. Why not.

 

If you've got it, it will only help

 

I did a 75% water change and dosed with another 1/2 bottle of Stability.

But those Nitrites remain unchanged at 5.0ppm

 

It takes a week or two so it wouldn't be instant. So after your water change you're still at 5.0? They must have been extremely high then, in the 10-15 range. I probably would've told you to do another one to get them back down towards 1.0.

How much ammonia did you add?

 

Haven't added any ammonia. It's at 0.0ppm currently.

I will do another water change.

 

Ok, great!

 

Dumped a 2nd bottle of Stability within the last 4 days.

Two 75% water changes.

Nitrites today are still very high at 5.0+ppm

Strange that two major water changes aren't reducing Nitrites.

Nitrates are in the 10ppm range. Temp at 87°