Help! Fish gasping at surface!

[wildatheart]

Did a big water change in my 55 last night because there was an algae bloom that got bad.
There's 2 big electric blue Acara in there and one CAE.
Today everybody's tending to hang at the surface.
They aren't stressed or freaking out but definitely an issue with the water.
They are all tough fish but I'm still worried.

My first thought was low O2 so I added a bubbler. The filter jet already creates surface ripples and I've never added a bubbler before, but I'm frantic.

The CAE is already positioned himself just off the air stone.
So whatever the air is doing they approve.

What's the issue here?

I realize it could be PH or maybe ammonia in the water....



Was the algae making O2 that's gone now?

Will fish hang at the surface because of PH issues?

The water change was very slow over 4-5 hours and they seemed fine after it was over.

Is my tap water changing PH as it settles?

Help!

 

[Beeker]

HI Wildatheart.
I have a bunch of questions, I hope you don't mind.

Do you have a liquid test kit?
What are the readings on your tap water and on your tank?
Also, what water conditioner do you use?
How long has your tank been running?
With an algae bloom, I'm guessing you have live plants. How many and do you add CO2?

 

[Chris99]

Have you tested your water since the change? What are the parameters?

This may be a stupid comment but I've forgotten to turn my filter back on after a change. I would check it is working properly.

Are there any fertilizers are other things in the substrate that have been disturbed during the change?

These are just a few thoughts. Please check and post the water parameters if you can.

 

[wildatheart]

The tap water readings are high PH 7.2

My tank has crashed PH !

It's light yellow on the test kit.
6.0

What a disaster. I should have known.

The tap water comes out very high and then settles very low. I had this problem once before, but on a different tank.

I changed the water in this tank (the 55) twice now before adding the Acaras, with just the CAE in there alone and the reaction was NOT like this.

I let the tap run for a long time before starting to refill the tank, this may be part of the issue

The tank is cloudy white throughout now. I think I may have killed all my bacteria.

I added a little bit of buffer to up the PH and I think the air stone will up the PH too

Total disaster.

The worst part is I'm paralyzed as far as water changes go.

How can I do a water change if my tap water is a roller coaster?

And no, buying 10x 5 gallon jugs and letting it settle a day is NOT an option.

The fish are coping but clearly unhappy. Luckily they are hardy fish.

Should I take them out? I have other cycled tanks but they have much smaller fish in them.
I could put them in a big glass container I have with cycled water from another tank.

At this point tho I wonder if its just more stress on them.

The PH should be on it's way back from the bottom and there is an air stone for them.

Photos are of my readings left to right- PH, ammonia, nitrite

PH is horrible, and I've checked it 3 times

And the tank all cloudy white

I'm going to try a small water change with bottled water- 3,4 gallons I don't think it can hurt
I'm also adding on an extra backpack filter and might put some filter material from another tank in there once the PH is acceptable.

Can't believe I killed my bacteria.

The ammo reading is very slightly green... It's usually bright yellow

 

[wildatheart]

Wait. There may be something else.
I may have massively overdosed the tank with API tap water conditioner.
I usually have the regular stuff but this kind says "super strength" and where I should have added 3ml I added as much as 20ml



What are the effects of overdosing on this stuff??

 

[Chris99]

I know with Prime overdosing up to 5 times the regular dose is OK. I'm not sure on API.

I would continue with several small changes over the next few days as you mentioned. At least you know what's going on. Good luck.

 

[Beeker]

I'm not familiar with API. I also use Prime.
I'm glad you figured out what the problem is.
I agree with Chris that you should continue with the waterchanges and keep an eye on your fish.

 

[wildatheart]

Two partial changes today.

Got less cloudy and I've added PH buffer. PH is around 6.8 but I have to monitor it closely.


What are the possible reasons for the surfacing??

I want to check them all.
I can't leave them like this it's unhealthy.

 

[wildatheart]

I mean O2.... PH? Bacteria in column? It's not ammonia.

Some chemical in the water ?

 

[Beeker]

It could be the O2 and/or PH.
Hang in there.
You are doing all you can.

 

[wildatheart]

Water is close to 7, I'm monitoring it closely and adding buffer as needed.

The water definitely starts high PH and them plummets to 6 or less as it settles

I think from now on I can only do small water changes.

Fish are back to normal and were active and hungry this morning

No longer hanging at surface.

Does anyone know how a reverse osmosis filter would affect my water??

I know they can take some minerals out but not sure what the RO does to PH, especially PH that changes as the water settles.

 

[Chris99]

Great news!

RO water is bare of all minerals, etc and has a low pH. You have to buffer RO water in some way so I would just stick with your tap for now.

 

[wildatheart]

Yeah but at least with RO I would know what the PH was going in and that it would stay where it started.

My problem is that my tap PH is variable and changes as it settles.

I think I'm gonna just do small water changes from now on so the overall PH won't shift too much

Unfortunately if I get an algae bloom small changes won't fix it :/
Which is how this whole mess started.... Doing a big WC to ditch the bloom.

 

[Jomolager]

Sorry about your snafu. Not a pleasant experience. The general FL advice about testing PH in tap water has always been: Pour tap water in a glass, wait 24 hours, check PH using API liquid test. Another shared wisdom : PH buffers do more harm than good in the long run.
Could it be that you simply used too much API conditioner that negatively affected your fish? Please keep us posted, I want to know how it will work out. Good luck.

 

[wildatheart]

I've done a few %20 water changes since the last post.
The water has stabilized, it's clear, all my readings are zero, and the PH is around 7.2

But my problems continue.....

The Acara developed ick as a result of all this and they are very unhappy
They are just sitting motionless in a corner.

I'm hoping their sulking is because of the ick and not something else in the water

I've treated the water with copper and am raising the temp slowly.

They were eating, but today they are very docile and one has a cloud in his eye.

I'm worried its not just the ick making them like this

I could remove them from the tank but all my readings, ammo, nitrite, and nitrate are zero

Could it be the copper I put in?

I know you aren't supposed to do water changes after adding copper but I'm continuing to do small ones anyway hoping the temp increase will remove the ick even if most of the copper is removed via water change

I know I'm doing everything I can but this is killing mej

 

[Water Logged]

Chemicals that change the ph usually cause more problems in the long run IMO. A while ago I had the same ph issue as you do only mine went really high after a day in the tank. (7.3 from the tap to 8.2 over night).

I tried proper ph 7.0 but could not get rid of the cloudy water and it looked like it snowed in the tank. It was gross and took a lot of water changes to get rid of it. If you decide to use that product again I would suggest mixing it in a bucket and let it sit a day or 2 until the dust settles.... then vacuum it out before the WC.

I don't know about your particular type of fish but I did learn that in most cases a fish can live slightly out of their ph range if they are properly acclimated. It is the fluctuation more than the ph itself.

If you decide to acclimate them you can set your water out the night before a WC or an air stone in the bucket may be a quicker way ( I've never tried the air stone myself because I didn't have one at the time.)A 10% WC every other day may be a slow enough acclimating since you will need to vacuume often with the heat treatment for ich. Or wait until the ich is gone and then acclimate them it would definitely be less stressful.

Best of luck.

 

[wildatheart]

Yeah the Acara are very hardy and prefer higher ph but I think the water change, temp swing and PH drop just rattled them bad.

They are totally covered in ick and have cloudy eyes. I feel absolutely sick about this

I really hope they survive I will never make this mistake again.

 

[Ben3721]

To much water conditioner can reduce oxygen in the water, there is a very complex reason why. I can find it if you'd like. But it would go away after awhile if it did. But yeah prime can do 5x dose, so I don't know how far that argument can go. As for the PH crash, did you use a different water source for any water changes? Add any buffers? Any products that claim to change ph?

On a side note about buffers. They can backfire unless your a rocket scientist. I'm learning right now the hard way that ph is a very complex thing that should not be altered.

 

[wildatheart]

Yeah I figured out that my Tap comes out quite high and then swings VERY low.
They were happy as clams when I first did the large water change but then the PH plummeted, there was a bacteria die off, and all broke loose.
The fish were gasping, my Chinese algae eater died
The PH test was yellow!

Once I figured out what had happened I added an air stone and small amounts of buffer (kent marine)
Over a few days to stabilize the PH higher.

All my readings are good now, zeros on all ammo, nitrate, nitrite, PH is 7.2 and the original algae problem I had is fixed, but now the Acara have VERY bad ick (from the shock I presume) and at this point I would be thankful if they lived, their eyes are cloudy and they are totally lethargic.

I added copper for the ick but it just got worse over a few days so now I'm sort of back pedaling off the copper (could it have made them sicker?) and am doing small water changes to reduce WHATEVER is in my water at this point.

I know now I can't do big water changes without a disaster because of my tap water.

It's hard to watch them suffer and not be able to do anything.
I considered moving them to another established tank but at this point it seems like just more stress and they are extremely weak, just sitting motionless.

I feel like I'm in a real terrible place with this tank. And significant water changes are not a way out....

I'm raising the temp now for the ick
And I've set the photoperiod lower for the original algae problem .

Adding very small doses of the conditioner when I do water changes

The PH buffer saved them in this case from acid water, but I realize it's a risky solution.
I've had success with crushed coral in the past but it works very slowly.

Also I have found the PH buffers seem to increase bacteria growth (do they use the minerals to grow?) so my tank has bacterial stuff on all the upward facing surfaces.

I figure if I don't do more that a 10-20% water change ever I won't risk crashing again (the change that caused all this was %75+)

At this point I just hope they survive the ick.

What can I do in the future for my oscillating tap water?

I can't really let it settle as some have suggested because the biggest container I have is 5 gal, and it just settles acid anyway, so then I would be adding acidic water as opposed to water that at least STARTS high (not a shock) and swings low.

My next step at this point is to purchase a second filter and over filtrate this tank while the high heat works on the ick.

They were eating yesterday but today they had cloudy eyes and are not eating...

I really hope I haven't doomed my fish, and am very much on the fence about just moving them to a pristine cycled tank I have going, it would take some relocation of other fish but it's doable.
I just don't know if the move might be the extra stress that kills them.
(Also it would infect a very nice planted tank w ick)

If they don't eat for another day or two I may just move them.

I feel like a terrible parent

 

[Ben3721]

My tap water swings up after about an hour. Like 6.0 up to 7.2. But my tap water has high nitrates so I can't use it. Age your water a day to get it to the pH it will lock at then add it. And I only do 25% water changes. And don't knock yourself too hard, we all have been through one thing or another at one time and made mistakes, whether we admit it or not.

And you and I need to get away from buffers. We have to accept how our input water is. For you it would he the pH after you let water settle. And you'll have to find a way to age enough water for a water change. I'm sure someone here has done it before.

 

[wildatheart]

Sad to say one Acara died.
I'm sitting here trying to decide if I should euthanize his mate

There is some sort of peeling of the skin, I think maybe a secondary bacterial infection, cloudy eyes, color is terrible the ick is receding but the fish rests on the bottom so I'm worried it will just re infect.

She's blind and can't eat. It makes me sad to see her suffer. She's fighting and when I tried to net her she swam all over the tank causing me to hesitate about euthanizing.

I'm gonna give it 24 hours. Tank is at 83 for the ick, maybe she can turn the corner but it looks bad.

RIP Ares...

 

[Water Logged]

Ich stops infecting fish at 85 F stops reproducing at 86 F and dies at 89.5 F ....83 degrees will only make it reproduce faster and fish will end up reinfected. You will need to slowly turn up the heat.. 1 degree at a time.
You will also need to keep the air stone in for the treatment.

Unfortunately the extra heat may intensify the eye issue if it is fungal, though I cannot be positive... haven't had that experience yet.

You may want to start a new thread about the eye issue so it will get more attention.

Good luck!

 

[wildatheart]

They both died.

Also two small wild mosquitofish I had in there died

And they are virtually indestructible

I need to figure out why everyone died. I think it may have to do with the copper I added for the ick

The mosquitofish did not even get ick and they died just like my Acaras did

 

[Beeker]

I'm sorry for your troubles and loss.
Are there still fish in that tank?

 

[Water Logged]

:0( That's too bad. It was probably a combination of stressful events. Don't be too hard on yourself.

 

[wildatheart]

No fish left.

The death of the 2 little mosquitofish
Is really a sign of something weird happening.

Those fish are wild born and I've seen them survive almost anything

The mosquito fish didn't die of ick

And I don't think my Acara died of ick either.

They had peeling skin and cloudy eyes at the end but the ick was mostly gone from them...

Everything turned very bad after the copper was added...

The ick was not super bad when they got it and they were eating and swimming around, but after the copper they got worse and worse.

I think what they actually died of was massive infection but I can't figure out why....

The Mosquitos did not have ick and they died too.... With no markings on them

Anyway. Time for a %90 water change

 

[Beeker]

I'm so sorry.

I never have, nor do I ever plan to, use copper.
There are too many things that can go wrong.

At this point, stop and breathe.
Take some time for yourself to recover.
Then, when you are ready, start from scratch and fishless cycle your tank.
See pictures in your mind of what you want to see in the tank, research what you will need to make that picture a reality, change your mind a few times, research some more and then start creating. By then, your tank will probably be cycled and ready to go.

Keep us posted.
I hope all goes well.

 

[wildatheart]

Thanks for the support.
I totally hear you about taking a step back and breathing.

Sometimes the hardest thing to do is nothing. And with fish I'm finding its also usually the best thing.

The tank is and always was cycled.

I let it cycle for a month before I put those Acara in, and you could see bacteria growing here and there.

All my readings have always been zero.

I changed all but the last inch of water, added some crushed coral in the back corner, and put a few 50 cent mosquitofish in there.

They seem happy 24hrs later.

One thing that struck me after all this is how I didn't know about the tap water PH swing issue (that started this fiasco)

I recalled doing significant water changes on other tanks and not having the issue (hence assuming the reading at the tap would hold)
Then I realized something I think is key....
THOSE TANKS HAD AERATION

The 55 didn't have it until I saw the gasping that started this thread.

I think the air stone keeps the PH stable and up...
But that's another thread.

Thanks again for all the support and advice guys. Sad to see my Acaras pass but I guess it's a lesson learned.

Don't do anything big or anything fast.