20 Gallon Tank Help! Fish are dying and I want to save the shrimp.

Tank
What is the water volume of the tank?
20 gallon tank
How long has the tank been running?
Since May 22nd 2022
Does it have a filter?
Yes, Aqueon quiet flow 30 HOB
Does it have a heater?
Yes
What is the water temperature?
76 degrees
What is the entire stocking of this tank? (Please list all fish and inverts.)
Currently 1 neon tetra (4 just died today), 5 Amano shrimp, 5 blue dream shrimp, 4 assassin snails and some pest snails

Maintenance
How often do you change the water?
Every other week
How much of the water do you change?
15%
What do you use to treat your water?
Seachem Prime
Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water?
Substrate
*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish?
Yes
What do you use to test the water?
API Master test kit
What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: .25 ppm
Nitrate: 10-20 ppm
pH: 8.6

Feeding
How often do you feed your fish?
Twice a day
How much do you feed your fish?
A pinch of flakes
What brand of food do you feed your fish?
Tetra Color Flakes
Do you feed frozen?
No
Do you feed freeze-dried foods?
No

Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this fish?
7/1
How long ago did you first notice these symptoms?
Beginning of August, one tetra had a spot on its tail fin. Then the major issues with that tetra started yesterday.
In a few words, can you explain the symptoms?
Yesterday one of the neon tetras started swimming upside down and sometimes vertical, seemed lethargic.
Have you started any treatment for the illness?
With the white spot on the fin we tried API Melafix
Was your fish physically ill or injured upon purchase?
No
How has its behavior and appearance changed, if at all?
Other than the white spot, it had been fine, until yesterday.
Explain your emergency situation in detail.
As I mentioned above, we had the issue with the white spot on the fin for about a month now, we tried API Melafix with no change.
Last week on 9/1 we noticed that we had planaria in the tank, not many, and they were only visible right after turning on the light, then they'd hide in the gravel. After researching, we ordered panacur c (fenbendazole) since it seemed to take care of the issue quickly, and it was shrimp safe. We got it on 9/3 and dosed the tank with .18 grams. And then did it again 48 hours later. During this I checked ammonia periodically and it was never above 0 ppm. The planaria made no further appearances after the first dose, and all the stock (besides the pest snails) seemed to be doing fine. Yesterday, 9/8, I did a 15% water change in the evening, and before we put my daughter to bed we noticed the one tetra swimming vertically or on its side. I checked on them today at noon and spotted the 4 swimming around and they came out and ate. Then tonight around 8, we noticed 4 of them were dead or dying. I pulled the 4 out and did all the water tests. I was surprised to see that nitrite was above 0, so I did another 15% water change. My PH is always very high, I use tap water and mine is high to start with. I've tried researching how to handle that, but there's a ton of info out there and it's overwhelming.

So basically I'm looking for advice on the nitrites and PH, so far the shrimp appear to be fine.

Include pictures
Sorry, I don't have pics at the moment, the tank is in my daughter's room and she's asleep now.
Thanks for reading!

 

Hi & welcome. Your pH is very high for neon tetras, this could be stressing them & making them more susceptible to illness & disease, you should ideally be looking to get it down to around 6 to 6.8, you can do this naturally by adding peat moss & driftwood / bogwood to the tank which will lower it slowly & won't shock your shrimp. You could also have got a bad bunch of tetra, unfortunately they're so commercially inbred that they can come with multiple issues before they even get into your tank. As your tap water is also high pH you might want to think of getting different fish that don't mind it such as species of Danios.

 

Hello and thanks for the details.

It looks ike your tank is at a mini-wall with its cycle. There should be 0 Nitrites and maybe something like 5ppm-20ppm Nitrates (20ppm would be extreme considering stock, but only 15% wc not unheard of) and your ammonia would go up a tad then back down to 0 in relation to the Nitrites being 0 as well.

I would increase your water changes, start today by doing 25% volume. Then again tomorrow. Then test. Your not over stocked, just gotta take more water out and replace with more fresh.

Your filtration is decent, I'd personally go with an AC50 but thats just my preference when running hob's. At the moment we use nothing but sponge. But my experience with AC's is that you want a bit more than recommended.

Those white spots certainly sound like ich, but without pics one can only guesstimate.

That is a high pH for Tetras. If you don't have live plants you could use pH down. We too are cursed with high pH, but allowing the water to sit for a couple days can help. In the winter though, it comes out at like 10 lol. Crazy

Adding driftwood like above mentioned will help stabilize that pH but you'll need a good amount of it.
And like above mentioned Tetra's are as wishy washy as Bettas due to commercial breeding.

Not unheard of to get Tetras with weak immune systems.


*Edit
Also just to add, 5 tetras is a very small school. Maybe too small. Odd numbers are best with schooling fish but its recommended to keep a minimum of 7-9 especially with Tetras. They can be very nippy and bully a lot.

 

you should ideally be looking to get it down to around 6 to 6.8, you can do this naturally by adding peat moss & driftwood / bogwood to the tank which will lower it slowly

Considering the pH is almost at 9, the KH is for sure too high for botanicals/wood and peat (not peat moss and yes, I'm a broken record) to do anything significant with the pH.

If you don't have live plants you could use pH down.

Not without knowing the KH level of the source water and for sure a warning is necessary: NEVER use that stuff in the tank directly, always just for pretreatment. If the KH is unkown, all carbonate buffers might be neutralized and exhausted, rendering this a candidate for a true pH-crash.

But I agree the water parameters (not the quality) are the problem. And the cause is very likely the fact there are too little waterchanges done. 15% every two weeks is virtually nothing. I assume the evaporation is refilled with tap, which also raises levels.

It would be very much necessary to know GH, KH and pH not only of the tankwater but also of the source water. Also a picture of the tank is helpful, maybe there is something like limestone in it that raises levels additionally.

Only then a real plan can be made. Everything else is just poking around in the dark.

 

Not without knowing the KH level of the source water and for sure a warning is necessary: NEVER use that stuff in the tank directly, always just to pretreatment. If the KH is unkown, all carbonate buffers might be neutralized and exhausted, rendering this a candidate for a true pH-crash.

Oh I see!
Yes of course premixing outside the tank would be best. Personally I have never used it cause we have live plants and I believe all of them warn against or at least caution use with live plants.

 

Personally I have never used it cause we have live plants and I believe all of them warn against or at least caution use with live plants.

Honestly, then please don't recommend it. Also, plants can take it quite well, the animnals are the ones that have trouble with diluted acid. pH-down products are usually just diluted hydrochloric or sulphuric acid. I am strictly against using them.

 

Honestly, then please don't recommend it. Also, plants can take it quite well, the animnals are the ones that have trouble with diluted acid. pH-down products are usually just diluted hydrochloric or sulphuric acid. I am strictly against using them.

Well actually ever single one of the labels warns against using with real plants. Inverts I think I saw mentioned on one by API? *Edit sorry that's mentioned its safe for fish and plants.

If one so choses to recommend looking into a product for such an extreme situation such as high pH...that's not as bad as it may sound. One should know about everything in the hobby, and many tools available. Regardless of another's personal experience, which should not prevent the mentioning of.

We do well with sponge filtration, and high pH...some would say even too high of a pH (almost 9 sometimes) but our plants and fish are ok. I believe its because of the rate of wc that allows them to be acclimated to the differences.

We keep a variety of fish and inverts and amphibians in a pH range of 7.4-9
All healthy, active and breeding. But yes there are some fish we don't keep due to this pH situation.

I bet to use pH down successfully it would take over a week to safely and gradually bring it down. Avoiding shock, then a steady regime thereafter on every wc which should be measured constantly.

Without seeing, and without knowing its speculation lol. I know, but I'm almost on the side right now of if I was you....I would test, then do a larger wc today. Like 50% then test in 24hrs

Thanks for letting me know those other details about pH down MacZ. Although I personally would never use it lol

 

Well actually ever single one of the labels warns against using with real plants. Inverts I think I saw mentioned on one by API?

Unregulated market, I presume? Grossly negligent of the manufacturers.

If one so choses to recommend looking into a product for such an extreme situation such as high pH...that's not as bad as it may sound. One should know about everything in the hobby, and many tools available. Regardless of another's personal experience, which should not prevent the mentioning of.

I find it more responsible to not mention things that may pose a bigger risk than the situation at hand without giving warnings. I'm not assuming the OP to be one of these cases, but I have experienced cases where things like pH down were recommended carelessly and the OPs wrote two days later their pH was down from 8 to 4 in 24 hours and all life in their tanks was dead, because they chugged in half the bottle.

I believe its because of the rate of wc

Very likely.

The biggest problem with high pH: All ammonia, and be it only a minute amount, is present only as NH3- which means all of it is toxic. In lower pH it is partially or fully present as NH4 which is relatively harmless in small quantities.

 

Unregulated market, I presume? Grossly negligent of the manufacturers.


I find it more responsible to not mention things that may pose a bigger risk than the situation at hand without giving warnings. I'm not assuming the OP to be one of these cases, but I have experienced cases where things like pH down were recommended carelessly and the OPs wrote two days later their pH was down from 8 to 4 in 24 hours and all live in their tanks was dead, because they chugged in half the bottle.


Very likely.

The biggest problem with high pH: All ammonia, and be it only a minute amount, is present only as NH3- which means all of it is toxic. In lower pH it is partially or fully present as NH4 which is relatively harmless in small quantities.

Yes impatience can really mess stuff up in this hobby. Lol, I was once very impatience years ago and suffered for it.

What's your thoughts on adding peat moss to the filter? Or adding alder cones gradually or even IAL MacZ?

 

What's your thoughts on adding peat moss to the filter? Or adding alder cones gradually or even IAL MacZ?

Won't do anything. Peat moss is just moss. It has to rot in an anoxic environment to form peat. And peat is what you would want.

Humic substance based pH-lowering needs a prerequisite: Purified water. RO, DI, distilled or rainwater. The KH has to be low (<5° for peat, <2° for botanicals) or non-existent for the stuff to work. I use 100% RO. Only then the humic substances really do their magic.

I explained it all in my Blackwater article.

 

Humic substance based pH-lowering needs a prerequisite: Purified water. RO, DI, distilled or rainwater.

I suppose with the recent announcement of rainwater no longer safe to drink anywhere on the planet due to plastics rules that out! Lol, terrible what we have done to this planet.

I will do a deep dive into your article today, thanks for mentioning it. I do like a blackwater tank and Hyphessobrycon herbertaxelrodi's!

 

I suppose with the recent announcement of rainwater no longer safe to drink anywhere on the planet due to plastics rules that out! Lol, terrible what we have done to this planet.

True... humans are the real monsters.
There are still filters.

I will do a deep dive into your article today, thanks for mentioning it. I do like a blackwater tank and Hyphessobrycon herbertaxelrodi's!

Good choice. Friend of mine breeds them in his blackwater tank. Even together with blackskirt tetras and keyhole cichlids they multiply successfully.

 

Good choice. Friend of mine breeds them in his blackwater tank. Even together with blackskirt tetras and keyh

Oh nice! We've usually bred them in a seperat tank, covered with towel etc way....not as leisurely as your friend. Thats cool stuff!

I got right to the part in your article about pH down products and fully realized what your saying lol.

I wanted to leave a review but however it seems its closed. So I upvoted it? Does this work same?

It's a great article, very informative and should be shared more. I will recommend.

Nothing better than a natural aquarium!!

 

Can we please get back to addressing the Op’s issues, if you have questions about your own tanks then start a new thread.

 

Already done and the information is imo also useful to the OP.

- warned about ph-down - check
- advised to do more waterchanges - check
- gave ideas how to lower pH safely - check

 

That part is correct, I didn’t want further irrelevant discussion about black water tanks & breeding Hyphessobrycon herbertaxelrodi's to overshadow the Op who as yet has not returned to the thread, until they do it might be prudent to wait for a response from the Op on advice already given.

 

That part is correct, I didn’t want further irrelevant discussion about black water tanks & breeding Hyphessobrycon herbertaxelrodi's to overshadow the Op who as yet has not returned to the thread, until they do it might be prudent to wait for a response from the Op on advice already given.

I only read the other post after yours. Got your point.

 

Hi everyone, thanks for all the replies. I did some more water testing today and did find that nitrites are at 0 ppm today and nitrates is in between 5 and 10 ppm, so I think we're ok for now on that, but I'll keep an eye on things.

Obviously the bigger issue is the pH of the water and the hardness. I don't have a GH test kit, only KH, but I'll try to get a GH kit later today. I tested both the tap and aquarium water and found the tap water to be 161.1 ppm and the aquarium was one step below that at 143.2 ppm.

I'm not sure how to proceed, I had looked at products like Seachem acid buffer, but I was in a bit over my head and didn't want to start adding a ton of stuff to the water. I've also bought Fluval Peat granules, but haven't used them yet. Should I look into RO water instead of using tap? Other than the RO system, I don't know where to start with re-mineralization of the water. I don't mind spending extra money on this tank, because if I can get this one going and get it stable, I plan to buy a larger one for myself in the future.

Attached is a pic of the tank, keep in mind it was decorated by my 8 year old daughter, it was her birthday present this year .

Edit: I do plan to do a larger water change later today as recommended, I'm just wondering if I should start to do something about the pH as well when I add new water. I'm assuming if I decide to make any changes to that I need to do it gradually.

 

Obviously the bigger issue is the pH of the water and the hardness. I don't have a GH test kit, only KH, but I'll try to get a GH kit later today. I tested both the tap and aquarium water and found the tap water to be 161.1 ppm and the aquarium was one step below that at 143.2 ppm.

KH is the important valure here, GH usually is higher than KH but also not very important for other water parameters.
The readings explain it. You have high KH with about a 10 on the degree scale. That in itself predetermines a high pH.
You also have a strong airstone, which drives out CO2, which in turn also raises pH as CO2, pH and KH are in an everchanging equilibrium.

I'm not sure how to proceed, I had looked at products like Seachem acid buffer, but I was in a bit over my head and didn't want to start adding a ton of stuff to the water. I've also bought Fluval Peat granules, but haven't used them yet. Should I look into RO water instead of using tap? Other than the RO system, I don't know where to start with re-mineralization of the water. I don't mind spending extra money on this tank, because if I can get this one going and get it stable, I plan to buy a larger one for myself in the future.

Don't get chemicals, just cut your tap with RO. 50:50 you cut down the tap readings down to half, 1:2 you cut them in thirds and so on. You can leave the peat if you only cut tap with RO and any other additives are also unnecessary then.
Tetras could live in straight up RO (provided you add humic substances), invertebrates do not, so in your case you might want to just cut your water down to maybe 1/3. So the KH will go down to maybe 3-5°KH, that will be more than sufficient.

A small 50-100,- RO system is more than sufficient for your purposes.

I see nothing in your tank besides the airstone that has influence on your water, so that's good.
Definitely double to triple the amount of plants with something low demand, like Elodea, Hydrocotyle and floating plants. The typical beginner mistake is to think the plants will grow in over time. The fewer you start with, the longer that will take.
Some leaf litter (1-2 IALs ripped to smaller parts) would also be beneficial.

 

You also have a strong airstone, which drives out CO2, which in turn also raises pH as CO2, pH and KH are in an everchanging equilibrium.

Should I remove the airstone or just turn down the air? I thought the airstone would help with CO2 and also help by agitating the water on that side of the tank, but I can remove it if it's doing more harm than good.

You can leave the peat if you only cut tap with RO and any other additives are also unnecessary then.

I haven't actually added peat to the tank yet, but you think it would be a good idea with the RO/tap mixture?

so in your case you might want to just cut your water down to maybe 1/3.

Do you mean 1/3 tap and 2/3 RO? And if I do the mix, I don't need to worry about any other mineralization except maybe IAL and peat?

Thanks for the help!

 

There is a lot going on here but what is your tap water PH after a sample has sat out overnight? I have a feeling it will be high but not 8.6. If you do bigger water changes it will stop concentrating.

If your tap water PH is 8+ it is best to not bother with sensitive softwater species unless you are willing to invest in an RODI unit and figure out how to supplement it to the right GH, KH for your livestock.

Your shrimp love water like yours.you need to find hardier fish than neons.

 

Should I remove the airstone or just turn down the air? I thought the airstone would help with CO2 and also help by agitating the water on that side of the tank, but I can remove it if it's doing more harm than good.

Turn it down to maybe 1/4 or less of the airflow.
They help with gas exchange at the surface, but the KH determines how much CO2 can even be taken from the air. Too little flow and you have a lack in oxygen. Too much and you drive out the CO2, just like shaking a bottle of sparkling water.

I haven't actually added peat to the tank yet, but you think it would be a good idea with the RO/tap mixture?

I meant leave it out. I'm all pro humic substances, but peat is a strong ion-exchanger and as a natural product you can never be sure of the strength.

Do you mean 1/3 tap and 2/3 RO? And if I do the mix, I don't need to worry about any other mineralization except maybe IAL and peat?

yes 1 part tap : 2 parts RO. That should get your KH down to between 3-5° and similarly lower GH. Nothing wrong about that. You will just simply have everything from your tap, but cut down to 1/3 of the tap readings.
IALs and peat do not remineralize, for minerals you cut with tap. They add humic substances (Read the article, it explains it.) which are generally beneficial.
To change the whole thing you do several smaller waterchanges with pure RO. Start with 20%, wait 1-2 days, do another 20% until you have a mix of 1:2. After that you premix 1:2 in the waterchange bucket before adding the mix to the tank. But befoe you start this: You will then have to stick to that mix ratio for every waterchange. No exceptions. And if you want to switch back to tap you have to do the same acclimating route the other way round.

Another hint: As RO is usually pretty cold (you feed ONLY cold water to the unit!) you may want to mix it with a relatively hot tap, so you have both on tank temp. As you will still mix with tap, a dechlorinator will still be necessary.

 

Turn it down to maybe 1/4 or less of the airflow.
They help with gas exchange at the surface, but the KH determines how much CO2 can even be taken from the air. Too little flow and you have a lack in oxygen. Too much and you drive out the CO2, just like shaking a bottle of sparkling water.

I meant leave it out. I'm all pro humic substances, but peat is a strong ion-exchanger and as a natural product you can never be sure of the strength.

yes 1 part tap : 2 parts RO. That should get your KH down to between 3-5° and similarly lower GH. Nothing wrong about that. You will just simply have everything from your tap, but cut down to 1/3 of the tap readings.
IALs and peat do not remineralize for minerals you cut with tap. They add humic substances (Read the article, it explains it.) which are generally beneficial.
To change the whole thing you do several smaller waterchanges with pure RO. Start with 20%, wait 1-2 days, do another 20% until you have a mix of 1:2. After that you premix 1:2 in the waterchange bucket before adding the mix to the tank. But befoe you start this: You will then have to stick to that mix ratio for every waterchange. No exceptions. And if you want to switch back to tap you have to do the same acclimating route the other way round.

Another hint: As RO is usually pretty cold (you feed ONLY cold water to the unit!) you may want to mix it with a relatively hot tap, so you have both on tank temp. As you will still mix with tap, a dechlorinator will still be necessary.

Thanks for the advice, this will definitely get me started. And I will also add some more plants, thanks again.