Hagen's lab addresses the Nutrafin Cycle issue ...I think?

I read a bottle of cycle in a shop a while back for about 20 minutes trying to ascertain once and for all - will it cycle a tank or not? The bottle claimed very simply and clearly that it will. I can't recall the words used to describe how the cycle develops, but it made it clear that bacteria will colonate your aquarium with this product that will see your cycle established to take care of nitrogenous waste. The words of so many of you on here were ringing in my ears, and so I thought I'd try asking them directly just how new and improved this instant cycle really is. It sounded like this was Australia's answer to the TSS void we have.

So I got through to the customer enquiry/feedback thing on Hagen's website and sent them this:

6/13/2011
Hello, I am hoping you can clear something up. Does nutrafin cycle contain a completely aquatic strain of beneficial bacteria, or is it a land based form, in which case only survives a limited time in an aquarium? If it is a land based bacteria, does this then require continual adding of this product to the tank for the life of the tank - as this would surely prevent the establishment of the essential aquatic bacterial colony? Any advice you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

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I was frustrated to receive this in reply:

Tanya Schwab (Hagen Customer Service Rep) 6/13/2011

Whether you're a new or experienced fish keeper, new Nutrafin Cycle is essential to ensure a safe, balanced home for your fish.

New Nutrafin Cycle contains five times more friendly bacteria (nitrosomas and nitrobacter) than before, which significantly increases the speed at which they colonate within the aquarium as well as being able to immediately convert greater quantities of ammonia and nitrite into safer nitrate. The new Cycle formula is "supercharged" and more readily adapts and responds to demanding conditions.

Cycle is composed of 5 strains of highly concentrated bacteria which form clumps or "flocs" which sink to the bottom of the container and are protected from oxygen which enters the bottole. These "flocs" are visible as specs in the liquid, and are completely safe. This means that the bacteria lies dormant within the bottle until such time as they are exposed to air, at which time their metabolism speeds up and their life cycle progresses at it's usual pace. For this reason, Cycle can be kept for up to a year after opening. The concentrated bacteria then work together to become capable of converting organic waste to inorganic (ammonia & nitrite) compounds for conversion to nitrate. New Nutrafin Cycle has been developed using the latest advances in bio-technology and has achieved improved bacterial stability, higher activity levels and an ultra pure concentrated product for unparalleled consistent performance from every bottle.

Cycle's new, faster acting formula gets to work immediately to quickly reduce harmful ammonia and nitrite. This means you're far less likely to lose fish in a crisis.

Cycle comes with a new easy-measure 20ml dosage cap marked in 5ml increments, so whatever size your aquarium you can be confident the dosage is correct.

Please refer to the below link for an information sheet on Cycle:



Regards,

Customer Service
Rolf C. Hagen Inc.


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I despise automated responses! Despise them enthusiastically. They're rude, and shoddy customer service practice. Anyway. I replied with the following:

6/15/2011
Thanks for the reply, and I have read all this information previously. I would still like to know, though, is it a land based bacterial colony that this product develops in the aquarium? Land based bacteria will consume the ammonia and nitrites, thus not allowing the aquatic bacteria to ever establish. They won't develop, and therefore cycle your tank, if their food source is being taken by a bacteria that will not survive indefinitely in the aquarium. Does the bacteria in Cycle survive in an aquatic environment? Does the aquarium require continual addition of Cycle to maintain it? Is it a one-off dose only at initial start up? What is the lifespan of the bacteria that each bottle contains? If someone could address these questions I would be grateful. Thank you.


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I then got a human to reply and they said:


Tanya Schwab (Hagen Customer Service Rep) 6/16/2011


I have consulted with our lab who has provided the following response:
Cycle bacteria consortium is fully cultivated in a liquid growth media (water). Cycle consortium doneed a support for establishment of the biofilm and this is probably from where the comment ofland basebacteria comes from.Cycle is not one or two types of bacteria but a mixture of bacteriaand depending of the level of ammonia nitrite and other nutrients in the water column some will sprout if you want to become growing vegetative bacteria. How bacteria stay alive into the environment and bottle, it feeds of the biofilm. In time thebiolfI'm disappear.In our permanent stability program we actually predict with good accuracy theconsortium performance with remaining quantity of biofilm into the bottle.
Better adapted bacteria will dominate the filter as Mrs **** mentionned, but the equilibrum and dominating specieswill shift in response to nutrient concentration variation. This phenomenon is referred as succession.The dominant bacteria at high concentration of nitrite or ammonia will be replaced by bacteria with better nutrient strategies when the concentration becomes scarce. If the ammonia or nitrite spike, the dominant species will be replaced with fast growing organism, etc. The transition time between these population explain the lag, can take few weeks to adjust. To prevent these lag weekly seeding of nitrfyers consortium will reduce that lag time by increase theamont of appropriated bacteria when these shifts occurs.

The shelf life of the product is normally 24 months. The product can be employed as three dose in three days and this will colonize the biological filter quite effectively. We do recommand to add smaller dose than at the start up for the reason mentionned previously.

Regards,
Customer Service
Rolf C. Hagen Inc.


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So, is this new product what it claims? I'm still not sure it is or isn't capable of establishing a cycle. If anyone with a fairly solid understanding of how aquarium bacterial colonies establish can give their views, I'd like to hear it.

 

Sounds like they have a bunch of stuff in there that will do different things at different times, which is why you have to keep adding it.

 

I didn't even understand the last response.

It's never been questioned that cycle can convert ammonia to nitrites to nitrates.
What's questionable is can you stop using it without the tank crashing.
I'm not sure they addressed that.

 

Better adapted bacteria will dominate the filter as Mrs **** mentionned, but the equilibrum and dominating specieswill shift in response to nutrient concentration variation. This phenomenon is referred as succession.The dominant bacteria at high concentration of nitrite or ammonia will be replaced by bacteria with better nutrient strategies when the concentration becomes scarce. If the ammonia or nitrite spike, the dominant species will be replaced with fast growing organism, etc. The transition time between these population explain the lag, can take few weeks to adjust. To prevent these lag weekly seeding of nitrfyers consortium will reduce that lag time by increase theamont of appropriated bacteria when these shifts occurs.

They definitely addressed it. This basically says when the Cycle bacteria die off, natural bacteria will replace it over a period of "few weeks."

In other words... you put in Cycle, the Cycle bacteria do their thing until they die (probably quite soon), at which point your tank spends "few weeks" cycling. Which is what would happen SOONER if you saved your money on Cycle in the first place.

Customer Service basically confirmed everything that people here say; they just buried it in sales jargon and broken English.

Too bad for them, I'm a ninth-grade English teacher. I read miserably bad English for a living.

 

Wow aylad, I used to teach a HS english class, and even I couldn't figure out what they were trying to say.
But I think I understood what the scientist talking to them was trying to explain to the CS rep (who obviously didn't understand). You can't use just plain water as growth media for bacteria. That's why it's called "media" instead of "water". Yes, most mass liquid bacterial media is water based, but it has FOOD in it! That and a few other points... what I gathered was the lab tech stopped trying to explain after about 15 minutes and was like "sure. yep. just what you said. i'm going back to work now." The first half of the explanation was at least present, if buried, but the second was not.

I think what they were trying for with the new Cycle was that theoretically, if you use different types of bacteria in a growth environment, all will begin to grow, but eventually the one most adapted to that particular growth environment will out compete the other bacteria. I think what the lab tech was TRYING to tell the CS rep was that the bacteria from the bottle of Cycle won't last forever, but neither will they prevent our friendly neighborhood BB from establishing itself. The idea behind their product is that it will keep your nitrogen numbers down while your BB is establishing itself. Cycle shouldn't interfere with BB developing normally and healthily; BB is better adapted for the environment anyway. It's not so much an instant cycle as it is a long term water conditioner that doesn't remove Cl.

Note: poor lab tech. and my grammar and spelling are awful, but that CS letter was so bad that had one of my students handed that in, I would have handed it back ungraded with the words "spell check" across the top.

 

They definitely addressed it. This basically says when the Cycle bacteria die off, natural bacteria will replace it over a period of "few weeks."

In other words... you put in Cycle, the Cycle bacteria do their thing until they die (probably quite soon), at which point your tank spends "few weeks" cycling. Which is what would happen SOONER if you saved your money on Cycle in the first place.

That's not how I understood it at all. There are several bacterias in the formula, which work in different conditions. The reason you have to add more is that all the bacteria cannot survive each stage of the process. So by adding it regularly, you are introducing bacteria at different points in the process, which moves the process along. After a month, everything is stable - is what they are claiming. At which point, adding more is no longer needed.

 

That's not how I understood it at all. There are several bacterias in the formula, which work in different conditions. The reason you have to add more is that all the bacteria cannot survive each stage of the process. So by adding it regularly, you are introducing bacteria at different points in the process, which moves the process along. After a month, everything is stable - is what they are claiming. At which point, adding more is no longer needed.

Oh dude, that's totally different from what I got from that. Maybe we should just email them and ask for a lab tech's email address. That might be easier to translate from jargon into information.

 

If the ammonia or nitrite spike, the dominant species will be replaced with fast growing organism, etc. The transition time between these population explain the lag, can take few weeks to adjust. To prevent these lag weekly seeding of nitrfyers consortium will reduce that lag time by increase theamont of appropriated bacteria when these shifts occurs.

What I get out of this is that if/when you get ammonia/nitrite spikes it can take a few weeks for the bacteria to adjust (ie. cycle properly). Because of this you should
"weekly seed" (add more product) which will increase the bacteria (which was dying) and "reduce lag time"

'reduce lag time' by adding a product huh? Why not just cycle properly from the beginning rather then relying on a product?

 

It's not that different

I think what they were trying for with the new Cycle was that theoretically, if you use different types of bacteria in a growth environment, all will begin to grow, but eventually the one most adapted to that particular growth environment will out compete the other bacteria.

That's exactly what I said. As the environment changes, different bacterias take advantage of the conditions and thrive. Bacteria that has been added, but doesn't have the necessary conditions will die. That's why the product is added regularly, so that there is always a bacteria in the tank to handle the changing conditions.

There are many, many bacterias that live in the filter. It's not just 2.


But I do want to make it clear, that I am not professing to know....just offering my interpretation of what was given.

 

Ok, I see where your (Jaysee and Wisecrackerz) interpretations come from. I missed what the person was saying about the different competing strains of bacteria.

Still, the email admits that a lag of a few weeks will occur between one species dying off and another species taking its place. I worry about ammonia/nitrite buildup during those weeks. Shine's comment is right on the money. If I have a choice between spending several weeks getting the bacterial colony established and steady using Cycle, or weeks to get the bacterial colony established and steady NOT using Cycle, why in the world would I spend money on their product?

 

Ok, I see where your (Jaysee and Wisecrackerz) interpretations come from. I missed what the person was saying about the different competing strains of bacteria.

Still, the email admits that a lag of a few weeks will occur between one species dying off and another species taking its place. I worry about ammonia/nitrite buildup during those weeks. Shine's comment is right on the money. If I have a choice between spending several weeks getting the bacterial colony established and steady using Cycle, or weeks to get the bacterial colony established and steady NOT using Cycle, why in the world would I spend money on their product?

I think the lag they are talking about is the entire process, during which the product is being used.... from when the FIRST bacteria takes hold and when the LAST one takes hold. That's how the natural cycle works.....

There is no mention of anything dying off. As conditions change the dominant bacteria changes. That doesn't mean that the previously dominant bacteria is now dead or non-existant. It means that that bacteria is now at equilibrium with the environment. The dominant bacteria is whatever is most efficient at correcting the existing imbalance. THATS why it has to be added continually, so that there is ample bacteria to handle the specific conditions that exist along the way.

The real question, the ONLY question, is if you have a self sustaining cycle (without fish losses) after the dosage regimen is complete.

The reason why someone would use this rather than spend the same amount of time to fishless cycle is......... so they don't have to wait to get fish. Seems obvious

Personally, I think they are better off buying a media bag and getting a cup full of gravel out of a tank, and putting that in the filter. The bacteria on the gravel will colonize the new media and support a small bioload. Small being the operative word. You should stock slowly anyways

 

But the dosing regimen is never complete because it needs to be added weekly, correct?

 

Well of course they want you to continue using it.....the more you use the more they make. That's not a reflection on whether or not it's NEEDED to maintain the cycle.

 

I second the person asking for the lab tech's e-mail address... I mean, it sounds like marketing, lab-tech, and customer support jumbled together by bureaucracy, to create a remarkably incoherent response.
maybe they hope if they confuse you enough, they look smart, and you use their product?

 

Man, am I relieved to read that all of you struggled to understand it! I'm not a science type, but I'd love to be. I concluded that if that is how you talk about things, then I'll never get it.

Anyways. So a lot of the last reply is open to interpretation. They make definite claims that there are numerous types of bacteria, good. They do not claim that any of those can grow and establish in the filter and survive indefinitely with a constant ammonia and nitrite source, do they? They seemed to say that there are different strains that will respond differently. I'm not sure why this is necessary? I don't quite know how many strains exist in an already cycled filter, however.

And Jaysee was right, why someone would do this instead of the long way is to be able to add fish right away. At least some fish, anyway. Ignorance is the most common first mistake we make. We don't even necessarily always know that it's only the first tank/filter that takes ages. It's like teaching a man to fish; you teach him to seed a filter and you've provided him limitless tanks from then on.

 

I think the lag they are talking about is the entire process, during which the product is being used.... from when the FIRST bacteria takes hold and when the LAST one takes hold. That's how the natural cycle works.....

Perhaps. This puts us right back to the fact that we have a poorly-written, nearly incomprehensible explanation. The phrasing makes me think that a "lag" happens multiple times, but the phrasing is so bad anyway that your interpretation makes as much sense as mine.

The reason why someone would use this rather than spend the same amount of time to fishless cycle is......... so they don't have to wait to get fish.

Unless Cycle keeps ammonia and nitrite levels low even during the "lag" (which Customer Service never promised, of course) this might not be much better than doing a fish-in cycle. Maybe it does keep the water safe. Maybe it is better. I'm not going to test it on live fish to find out, though. Some things are worth the wait.

Anyway, as Jaysee pointed out, anyone using this product would be well-advised to stock very lightly at first... and I personally would choose to keep a close eye on water parameters and keep a bottle of Prime handy, just in case.

 

I can't remember the names of the correct aquatic bacteria (I remember that someone posted them once though) however the fact that they mention "lags" and encourage you to continue to add product to deal with it doesn't sound any different then the original Cycle.

Maybe it is even the right bacteria.... perhaps they are just doing that to sell more product. That makes sense form a capitalist standpoint even if it does strike me as somewhat unethical (consider that Safestart tells you to add only once). But---it could also be that this is very little different then their original product, that would only give you a cycled tank so long as you continued to use the product every week.

The problem is that it could be either, because the language in those emails are so obtuse that you can get nearly any interpretation from it.... as seen above ^^

 

I think this product's place in our fishy-chemical tool boxes is more of an emergency cycle boost. It's better than doing an unseeded, fish-in cycle, if you have an emergency (like an evacuation during a flood or earthquake) where you can basically save your fish and nothing else, or something else like that (ever evaced a pet? it's harder than you'd think!). It's not as good as something that will "instantly" cycle your tank (I'm still really skeptical of the "instant" concept, but that's just me), or seeded media, but it's better than nothing at all.

There seem to be some places in the world, especially nations with strict import/export laws, where TSS and other BB sources are unavailable. In these cases I can certainly see the benefit of this product in a pinch; unplanned rescues, etc.