Guppy Selective Breeding!!

My momma fish have been busy so I'm probably setting up another tub today lol. When I was building the network, not stealing anymore Tupperware was mentioned, hopefully it's not too ill-recieved.

 

I am a little less confident that the two juvies I put in the male tank are actually males. So far the males are not paying any attention to them so I guess that means that either they are male or the males are not interested until they reach breeding age. There is a male juvie in the female tank that is showing color and another juvie that is clearly male. Getting these sorted out is going to be a constant battle.

Therefore, I am considering swapping tanks. Put the males in the more heavily planted tank and the females in the less heavily planted tank. That way it will be easier to capture fish out of the female tank and move them to the male tank.

As I contemplate this plan, I am considering my optimal process. Thinking I would first capture all the males and put them in a five gallon bucket. Then capture females out of their tank and move them directly to the other tank.

To do that, I would have to make sure water parameters are close enough. There is a slight difference in the pH between the tanks, I believe due to the eco complete substrate in one tank. I am thinking that a significant water change before the switch would get the parameters close enough.

The next part of the process is the logistics of capturing fish out of the more heavily planted currently female tank. I am thinking that I remove the driftwood, put moveable plants on the perimeter. Grab groups of fish with the large net, but them in a two quart specimen box and sort there. Females to their new home and males to the five gallon bucket with the other males.

Sounds easy enough. But I am sure it will not go as easy as I hope. Any thoughts?

Since it may take some time, thinking that I would put an airstone in the five gallon bucket.

Wondering how long it would be safe to leave the males in the five gallon bucket. Thinking a couple hours is probably okay.

Wondering if I should use a 10 gallon tank for the transitional home for the males rather than a five gallon bucket.

Wondering if I should alter their feeding before I make the change. Maybe feed them so that they are content. Or maybe fast them so they do not poop too much in the transitional home.

 

5 gallon bucket will work, drop a plant in there for comfort and have the airline bubbling. They'll be fine.

Don't feed them before the move, it will make it harder.

 

I am a little less confident that the two juvies I put in the male tank are actually males. So far the males are not paying any attention to them so I guess that means that either they are male or the males are not interested until they reach breeding age. There is a male juvie in the female tank that is showing color and another juvie that is clearly male. Getting these sorted out is going to be a constant battle.

I also have a hard time with this, though in terms of behavior, the main thing I've noticed is the males start to do the weird guppy 'dance' where they swim almost backwards with their tail angled sharply, dorsal fin extended and analfin / gonopodium extending outward away from their body. They do this while pointed towards either a rival male or a potential mate. I've noticed this in males who do not yet have a gonopodium, but still angle their analfin (which still looks female) outward at 90 degrees.

My strategy to avoid unwanted breeding is to just check suspected males for gonopodiums super often. Young juveniles males have female style analfins which I believe slowly start to sharpen (almost like a subtle sword tail) in the week or two before the gonopodium develops. I've started netting them and holding the net against the front glass so I can get a really solid look at them.

Ideally I can just sex by gravid because when it does exist it exists early and obviously, but I've read here from old timers that not all females have them or they're not always obvious. Though I've not yet had a guppy without a gravid spot not age into an obvious male.

Therefore, I am considering swapping tanks. Put the males in the more heavily planted tank and the females in the less heavily planted tank. That way it will be easier to capture fish out of the female tank and move them to the male tank.

This makes sense, maybe its because my female tank is a 20 long, but I haven't had any issues netting who I want. It does take some patience and I find the older they get the easier it is. Tiny fry are way better at hiding. I try to have my plants as evenly split as possible between the two tanks because I want that nitrate filtration in both.

I have considered though removing all of the driftwood and rocks from my 20 to make netting easier, though I think my shrimp would be upset (I'm trying to breed shrimp in both of my main guppy tanks).

Therefore, I am considering swapping tanks. Put the males in the more heavily planted tank and the females in the less heavily planted tank. That way it will be easier to capture fish out of the female tank and move them to the male tank.

Can't you just move the plants? Either way your move plan sounds good to me, though I'd be a little bit paranoid about stressing my whole colony at the same time with a move like that, but I think that's just paranoia. I would maybe water change between the two tanks for a few days leading up to the move. Move five gallons from A to B and then five from B to A.

 

also have a hard time with this, though in terms of behavior, the main thing I've noticed is the males start to do the weird guppy 'dance' where they swim almost backwards with their tail angled sharply

The dance battles are the best part of male guppy tanks. As long as you have more than 3 of them in there they should pretty much take turns playing the boss. The most fascinating part is watching the colors and eyes change throughout the day as they wear themselves out. This is definitely a good way to spot the males, though I usually see a dot on them or some fin differences before they start dancing.

Wondering if I should use a 10 gallon tank for the transitional home for the males rather than a five gallon bucket.

I would go with the bucket, and to ease the water parameters when you're ready to put the males in their new home just gently dump the bucket in with them. As far as life support, I recently transported 15 big silvertips a good distance, and had to take them before I was ready to travel home. In a 6 gallon Coleman Ice chest with nothing but an airstone they went ~8 hours and colored up immediately after acclimation to their own new tank. You should have plenty of water in a 5 for allot of guppies if it's just an hour or two.

 

My thinking about this project is continuing to evolve. The more I learn the more I am finding that it is going to be harder to do what I thought I could do. So my current thinking is becoming more observational and educational rather than trying to do anything.

I am thinking that I will not worry too much about controlling the process. Just let it go and observe. I am thinking that if I cull the older fish regularly, I will drive the process faster since I will be turning over generations faster.

Perhaps I will have two colonies and observe differences in how they evolve.

Interesting and entertaining in any event. Hopefully educational.

 

My thinking about this project is continuing to evolve. The more I learn the more I am finding that it is going to be harder to do what I thought I could do. So my current thinking is becoming more observational and educational rather than trying to do anything.

I am thinking that I will not worry too much about controlling the process. Just let it go and observe. I am thinking that if I cull the older fish regularly, I will drive the process faster since I will be turning over generations faster.

Perhaps I will have two colonies and observe differences in how they evolve.

Interesting and entertaining in any event. Hopefully educational.

It is allot of work, even in the smallest scale to try anything specific with breeding. It's like we're fighting nature or something.

It would be neat to set up 2 tanks as close to identical as possible and cool from one/not the other and see if/when they self regulate and how the interactions go between tank mates with and without your assistance.

Mostly though, let's keep enjoying our fish.

 

My main tank is now getting a bit full. I plan to take the biggest females to my LFS as feeders. I have most of the adult males in the "fraternity" tank. The big tank is females, juvies, fry and two young colored males. I may try to capture them and move them to the fraternity tank. But NBD if I can't.

I am thinking I will cull adults every few months to let the little guys grow and reproduce and in doing so try to accelerate the generations and evolution of the colony. I plan to just watch and see if I notice anything. Hopefully I will learn and if I decide to do some more ambitious breeding in the future, I will have some experience to help.

Now have to decide how many of the big females to cull.

Tempted to move a couple of my favorite males back to the big tank to give them an opportunity to contribute their genetics to the pool.

 

Transferred 10 large females to a new 10 gallon tank. Planning to take them to LFS to donate as feeders - maybe tomorrow. Then the new 10 gallon tank will be either:

1. Virgin female tank.
2. Fry tank
3. Honeymoon tank for selected breeding trio
4. Quarantine tank
5. Hospital tank
6. All of the above from time to time

I put a sponge filter that had been in the 40 gallon tank for about 6 weeks, maybe 8. I will be interested to check the parameters in the morning to see if I have any ammonia or nitrites.

 

Donated 10 females to my LFS for their feeder tank. Felt like I was sending the mother of my children to death row...

But they would have been somebody's lunch 2 1/2 months ago if not for me. They had a brief reprieve. Got to have some babies and now they are done.

I suppose I will get used to it. Although the next batch will be sending some of my children to death row. Poor little guys.

 

Donated 10 females to my LFS for their feeder tank. Felt like I was sending the mother of my children to death row...

But they would have been somebody's lunch 2 1/2 months ago if not for me. They had a brief reprieve. Got to have some babies and now they are done.

I suppose I will get used to it. Although the next batch will be sending some of my children to death row. Poor little guys.

You could always adopt a little snake or some turtles, then at least the little guys/gals would be feeding your other pets

 

My younger son wants me to get a turtle. I have also considered a predator tank. Gonna get a handle on what I have now first. Maybe later. Or maybe I will find an injured reptile in the back yard and nurse it back to health.

Interestingly, very shortly after I removed the 10 largest females, the fry started swimming higher in the tank and feed from the surface. Prior to that they stayed near the bottom and waited for food to sink.

I suppose it makes sense that they would adjust when the threat of being eaten was removed. But I am surprised they changed their behavior so quickly.

 

I left one big fat female alone in the 10 gallon culling tank. Today she is skinny, but I do not see any fry. Could she have eaten them all?

[EDIT] Spoke too soon. I count three. Still she looked fatter than that. Seems like she must have eaten some. Would like to get her out, but do not want to put her back in the other tank since she is bigger than the others in there.

[EDIT] Four

[EDIT] Six

 

I am now thinking that I will leave mom in with the babies. Based on my understanding that females will produce fry monthly for several months once inseminated, I am curious to watch that happen. She is thin now, but I am expecting she will get fat again and have more fry in a month or two.

 

I am now thinking that I will leave mom in with the babies. Based on my understanding that females will produce fry monthly for several months once inseminated, I am curious to watch that happen. She is thin now, but I am expecting she will get fat again and have more fry in a month or two.

Mine give birth and balloon back up over a couple weeks. It seems like I can use pressure and environmental variables to time a drop from 28-45 day intervals. I missed on my attempted Christmas drop and ended up with new years babies though so I'm not quite there lol.

 

It seems like I can use pressure and environmental variables to time a drop from 28-45 day intervals.

Interesting, tell me more.

 

Interesting, tell me more.

I can typically get away with leaving my newborns and juvies with the moms for up to 6 weeks before I get concerned about sexual development and have to put the males and females in separate tanks. Since I have the 3 primary females (from last July's batch) kept together and they are on similar schedules the maternity/newborn tank gets full but not overcrowded at drop, but by week 3-4 the juvies are getting big enough to compete for food, crowd and pressure the mothers until I remove them. I have found that if I am in this zone time wise I can basically force the timing of a drop by removing all the juvies simultaneously and making a large water change. If I leave the juvies in typically it seems like they will hold the drop back until I make them comfortable. I had a female (one of three that were ready)give birth about 45 days into one of these cycles when I was trying to leave pressure and delay a drop, she was stressed and only dropped 3. After seeing this I pulled the juvies; the same female and the other two dropped more fry within 3 days.

Since my breeding tank is so specialized towards snakes and snails more than the fish themselves I don't know how many it would take to get a similar result in a 10. The maternity tank I think I have described to you before is only 4-5 gallons of water, 5-6 inches deep spread 2/3 of the way across a 20 long diagonally. I only find it suitable for 3-6 adults (I've only been keeping 3 breeding now that I do it for fun, not food) at a time and only because it's such a wide shallow swimming area. The rocks and plethora of plants i'm sure are why the fish like it so much but still once you're up to about 25-30 2 month old fry it's definitely crowded.

 

I am up to four tanks for my operation now:

40 gallon primary colony. Mostly juvies and fry. Two young males and some young females. I expect to get small drops from time to time in this tank.

20 gallon fraternity tank. This is where I am putting all the males I can catch.

10 gallon maternity tank. Currently has about 15 six week old juvies. I think all females. There was one male I captured and moved to the fraternity tank. I hope these will be all virgins, if I got the male out in time. I guess I will find out soon.

10 gallon maternity tank. Currently has a large female and six fry. Planning to leave that as is and expect to see skinny momma become fat momma over the next few weeks. Will be interested to see another drop.

Planning minimal actions for the next two months. Just let the tanks sit and do their thing. Hoping I will not run into a population problem.

Then in April I will do something. I might pick a favorite male and put him with a couple virgins so I can see the progeny of a known male.

Trying to keep it low maintenance for now.

 

Up to 8 or 9 fry now. Many more than initially thought. Much easier to count now that they are a bit bigger.

 

I feel bad for the males in my fraternity tank. And I think I have a lot more females than males at the moment. So I am thinking about culling a few males, then put say six females in with two males in the 20 gallon and say four males in with the rest in the 40 gallon. Maybe one with three virgins in a 10 gallon.

And in the other 10 gallon, I have a female with about 9 fry.

 

I have twelve two month old females with five males in the twenty. Nine males with maybe 20ish females of varying ages and some fry in the 40. One female with 9 or 10 fry in a 10 gallon.

I wanted to be purposeful in choosing the males, but it was too hard to catch any of them, much less the particular ones I wanted so I just let it be random. I can see why 10 gallon tanks with guppy grass or hornwort works best. Easy to pull the hornwort or guppy grass out to catch the fish. Still not that easy to catch the fish, but easier. And still difficult to sex until colored up. And difficult to identify desired characteristics.

The other 10 is transitioning. I bought some driftwood (mistake right before leaving town) cloudy water and white fuzz. I am told it is harmless, but I did not want to leave the yuck while someone else was caring for the tanks. So I consolidated from four down the three tanks and put the driftwood in the fourth 10 along with some hornwort, a bunch of pest snails and a filter that has run for about a month on the 40 gallon. Not sure if the snails will have enough to eat. Not sure the state of the cycle. I will be curious to test the water when I get back. Not sure whether I will have a zillion snails or they will all be dead. Trying to decide whether to have the friend who is looking in on my fish put a little food in there for the snails. I put an algae wafer in for them yesterday, but they do not seem interested. Wondering if I should take it out.

 

Back in town after two weeks. 10 gallon fry tank with one female has more fry. The first drop has grown significantly and there are some smaller ones. Not sure whether new ones are a continuation of the first drop or a separate drop. Not sure how that works.

The snail tank mentioned in above post and at:

Snail-In Cycle? | Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle 445162

is progressing slowly. No surprize. Thinking I will put momma in that tank at some point. Maybe soon, or maybe after the cycle develops. Have not decided yet. I have a seasoned sponge filter I could use to boost the cycle.

Interesting to watch.

 

HI Sorg its great to hear your guppy experiment is still going strong. My 3 tank colony is growing rapidly as I haven't culled at all and for this reason I have a ton of color variation. My initial males and females were slightly different versions of the red mosaic dumbo ear, though the fry have an insane amount of variation in every way and I'm not sure how many of them could reasonable be called 'red mosaics'.

I've also had great luck with hornwort, I'm finding its a really underrated(though common) plant. Grows like a weed and is perfect for guppies. My only issue is the constant and rapid hair algae growth likely caused by my tap water and my strong led lights. Though it seems to be keeping nitrogen extremely low, it's ugly and time consuming to pull out.

Currently I have two males in my female tank and all the females that I bought initially have died (I think naturally, they were pretty old and I had them for 8 months). The next generation will be from daughters of the first generation which had unknown fathers from the LFS and my starter male red mosaics. It will be interesting to see how that generation varies from the current fry which are just the LFS mothers and unknown fathers.

Keep posting I love to follow your progress. Here is the variation of colors in some of

the males of my first generation.