Guppy Selective Breeding!!

So I’ve read it guppies before but it wasn’t selective breeding. I would just buy a bunch of guppies that I thought looked nice breed them and that’s about it. But after a little while of being out of the fish hobby I’m coming back better and stronger than ever. I currently have a rack of cycled heavily planted tanks that took me about a few months to completely set up and cycle. Now that I’m finally ready I’ll be turning my 30 gallon long into a guppy breeder tank (I’ll be selling them). Today when I was in the store I came across a really pretty Black tuxedo female and I just couldn’t leave her, but I also found this extremely pretty female with a very long tail. Now I’m going to breed with the black female with a fully black tuxedo male to get a nice strain going. But I’m not sure what mail to breed with the other guppy to get the nicest offspring possible what do you guys think? Thanks!

 

If they from the petstore, they unlikely to be anything more than some mutts displaying a particular trait (or even virgin, so likely to have fry regardless).


If you want to have some fun selective breeding, I'd encourage to find a breeder online and get a couple of pairs from them and breed from there. That way you're still starting out with good stock (that you 100% know the ancestory) that you can buy additional fish down the track to ensure the line doesn't become too inbred.

 

As stated above if these came from a pet store then their genetics are questionable

Meaning even though she looks like she would have been line bred because of her coloration, being female she’s only showing X trait.

She is strikingly dark which honestly leads me to think she could be a “muppy” as molly guppy crosses which make very long tailed strikingly dark females. They are though usually sterile

Even if she isn’t, what the previous response is saying is just because she shows a single desirable trait (long tail, wag tail, lyre tail) she is most likely an “assorted” (mutt) and so carries countless recessive color/fin genetics so even being crossed with a tuxedo mail she could throw any color/fin combo in any and all her offspring

EVEN if 1/10-50 of her offspring express the color/fin you want. Taking that male (easier to see the trait) and crossing it with a female (hard to see traits) or taking a female (see previous difficulty) and crossing it with a male who had traits you wanted, that cross will most likely not throw what you are looking for

It takes years and meticulous tracking to make a line breed “true” and even then we sometimes see a F4 or F5 (4th or 5th generation) which throws something we don’t want and have to hope that it recovers into what we need and then keep breeding that to hope it stabilizes or give up and start on another line

Just put together 2 fish you think look nice and see what you get and appreciate that fish while it’s with you

 

I have become interested in Endlers. They are either a close cousin of Guppy or a Guppy variant depending on who you talk to. They are either extinct in the wild or close to extinct. I have read that Endlers in their wild state are more colorful than wild Guppies and their colors are more vibrant. Guppies tend to have more pastel colors and Endlers have more electric colors. Endlers are more active and faster swimmers.

There are Endler breeders who are devoted to keeping the strain alive and keeping it pure and separate from Guppy cross breeding. Some of these breeders are Registered "N Class" breeders who can trace their fish back to wild caught Endlers. Many of these breeders develop their own strains and breed for certain characteristics - colors and fin characteristics.

I would like to breed for wild characteristics. I have only a faint idea of what these characteristics would be. I am interested in learning more about these characteristics and learning more about the breeding practices that would achieve my goals.

My original thought was that I would get breeding trios from three or four different breeders, throw them all together in a large tank and let nature take its course. I had assumed that natural characteristics would emerge from this process. I would occasionally add another fish to the colony to keep adding outside DNA to the gene pool and seek a very diverse, healthy hardy gene pool.

However, in another thread I participated in an interesting discussion of line breeding. I learned a little about breeding in this discussion and mostly learned that there is a lot more to learn. My sister (phd in genetics) suggested that I begin by line breeding each trio for at least one generation to see if the original trio breed true. This would be interesting since it would afford me the opportunity to learn about line breeding.

So my current thinking is that I will start by researching:

1. Endlers in general
2. Ender breeders
3. Breeding practices

I am thinking that I might start line breeding one trio for a generation or two and observe how they breed. Then put them in a colony tank and repeat for two or three more trios. Then I could observe how the pure trios bred in the first generation or two. And then watch how the colony would evolve.

If the colony did not evolve toward the wild characteristics I am looking for, then I would have to develop a culling protocol or some kind of line breeding procedure.

Not going to do this any time soon. Just researching the idea for now. Maybe I will just start with a mixed colony and see what happens.

No matter what happens, I can be sure of two things; 1) it won't go as planned 2) I will learn in the process

Looking forward to some interesting comments.

GuppyDazzle
PascalKrypt
blindfaith429
angelcraze

 

Hi,

Nothing wrong on how your ideas are to start with.
As a novice endler keeper and breeder it's really a good idea. Especially if you're not sure about the pureness of the fish you're gonna use.

I'm keeping and breeding endlers both wild and fancy ever since end 2003 and the beginning of 2004 until this very day on.

I'm running my own website about livebearers. And one of them are endlers. It's not a commercial site but an informative one. Maybe you can get some ideas. Check my profile on Fishlore. My website is mentioned overthere. And click Livebearer2 when you check out my site. I do have to mention that my site needs some updating. I'll take care of that before the end of this year.

 

Thanks emeraldking. I will check it out.

Especially if you're not sure about the pureness of the fish you're gonna use.

I was planning to start with registered N strain breeders. Hopefully that would start me out with high quality stock. Do you have any breeders you would recommend?

Check my profile on Fishlore. My website is mentioned overthere. And click Livebearer2 when you check out my site.

I looked at your profile and I do not see where your website is mentioned.

I was able to find it with a google search though. Looks like lots of great material. I think this will help me greatly with my education. Thanks!!

emeraldking

emeraldking

Wow, your website is a goldmine. Has a lot of the information I am looking for.

Dank u well!!

Tot zeins

 

I looked at your profile and I do not see where your website is mentioned.

I was able to find it with a google search though. Looks like lots of great material. I think this will help me greatly with my education. Thanks!!

emeraldking

Somehow my website wasn't mentioned on my profile anymore. But I've just corrected it. But you've googled it already... Maybe something went wrong when the layout of this forum was changed. Anyways, it's on my profile again.
And to the mods overhere → my website is an informative one and not a commercial one in case someone thought it was differently.

 

The biggest thing is you would have to find N class of the same strain not just of wild endlers. You cannot throw different strains together as it defeats the purpose of having bought specific strains. You would need dozens of tanks for any experiments. N Class endlers are going to breed true, otherwise they wouldn't really be N class strains. They will throw the occasional mutant, but would breed true to what the males and females look like.

 

Sorg67
Hi! I don't have much input on this subject as I'm a newbie myself, but I just wanted to say that I have read a lot of your threads and posts on this forum and I really admire your dedication to research, learning, and discussion about the hobby. It's really great that you have put so much time into these things before getting yourself into a situation where you might not be prepared (as so many people do). I can only imagine how great of a fish keeper you are and will be

 

The biggest thing is you would have to find N class of the same strain not just of wild endlers. You cannot throw different strains together as it defeats the purpose of having bought specific strains.

Yes, this is a good point. I am currently looking at black bar, orchid and peacock. These all have a very similar look, similar colors. I have found two sources for N strain black bar. I suppose I could focus on the black bar and get them from as many diverse sources as possible.

Or I could assume that since the orchid, peacock and black bar all look very similar that they are descended from a common or very close source.

Whether it defeats the purpose or not would depend on the purpose. Admittedly, my purpose is not yet well defined. My first thought was to breed back to as original as possible. But my thinking is morphing to developing my own line that would have more wild characteristics. Or perhaps more mixed characteristics. I have the impression that Endlers tend to have more vibrant colors than guppies. I wonder if I could breed for vibrance. Assemble initial stock from a variety of sources with different colors and select for bright iridescent colors without regard to the color. I wonder if I would get a colorful line but the colors would be random. Or maybe they would all just blend into dull.

 

Yes, this is a good point. I am currently looking at black bar, orchid and peacock. These all have a very similar look, similar colors. I have found two sources for N strain black bar. I suppose I could focus on the black bar and get them from as many diverse sources as possible.

Or I could assume that since the orchid, peacock and black bar all look very similar that they are descended from a common or very close source.

Whether it defeats the purpose or not would depend on the purpose. Admittedly, my purpose is not yet well defined. My first thought was to breed back to as original as possible. But my thinking is morphing to developing my own line that would have more wild characteristics. Or perhaps more mixed characteristics. I have the impression that Endlers tend to have more vibrant colors than guppies. I wonder if I could breed for vibrance. Assemble initial stock from a variety of sources with different colors and select for bright iridescent colors without regard to the color. I wonder if I would get a colorful line but the colors would be random. Or maybe they would all just blend into dull.

Feeder guppies can have some fantastic colors, but they normally never get the care and breeding efforts to make prettier ones, i've had lavender males with red and greens, they can be intense if they are allowed to show them.

Black bar is going to be the closest to wild stock, however if they breed true they are going to look the same with only slight variation. Unless you are breeding only mutants there isn't going to be much way to increase colors, which doesn't really hold to breeding that particular strain, but rather trying to make a new strain will still being under N Class classifications.

Getting several strains will kind of defeat that N class rating, even if only in appearance.

The biggest thing is tank held strains will change over time, even if they came from a wild source and have new blood from a similar wild source come in. The appearance even from F1 fish differed from the F0 or origin stock, because the environment changed.

 

Feeder guppies can have some fantastic colors, but they normally never get the care and breeding efforts to make prettier ones, i've had lavender males with red and greens, they can be intense if they are allowed to show them.

This might be the best place to begin while I learn. Wait to spend big bucks on N strain Endlers until I have gained some knowledge and experience.

The more I think about it, the more I like the feed guppy idea. My LFS has feeder guppies for $0.25 each with a sign that say they get to pick. But maybe for $0.50 per fish they would let me pick.

Then I could get some experience with breeding without much cost. They would come from death row anyway. If it does not go well, I could give them back to the fish store for their feeder tank.

And this would coordinate well with a 10 gallon Betta tank I am contemplating with guppies. And it might give me a supply of feeder fish for a 29 gallon cichlid tank I am considering.

 

This might be the best place to begin while I learn. Wait to spend big bucks on N strain Endlers until I have gained some knowledge and experience.

Look for clean, healthy feeders without any wobbles or swimming issues, go for fry if you can that way you can be a little more selective over who breeds with who.

 

My choice was $1 for a random scoop of 20 feeders or $3.95 each for males and $1.95 each for females if I pick.

So I picked the random scoop of 20 for $1.

They are small and look like some of them may be guppy Endler hybrids.

So my plan is to cull the bad swimmers and select the most colorful. See if I can bring out something interesting. Hopefully learn something about breeders.

If it goes poorly, then I will scoop them all up and take them back to the LFS for their feeder fish tank.

That is if I do not get too attached, which is a risk.

The journey begins.

The are already all over the tank. Very active. Eating. Males chasing females. Fun to watch.

Thinking about setting up a 20 gallon long with three partitions to make four 5 gallon sections to use for sorting and examining.

I am thinking that will a common water source, I should be able to keep water parameters close enough that I would be able to move fish from the colony tank to the sorting tank without much or any acclimation. Is that a reasonable expectation?

 

I would QT any feeders you get, to keep it from the main population.
Separating may be an issue if the fish jump (which can happen and easily with guppy types), specially if you are separating males and females.
Moving them shouldn't be an issue as long as the parameters are kept similar.

 

I would QT any feeders you get, to keep it from the main population.

At the moment, my entire population is feeders. Do you mean if I add feeders to the existing population?

Separating may be an issue if the fish jump (which can happen and easily with guppy types), specially if you are separating males and females.

How high can they jump. Main tank does not have a top. Should I lower the water level a bit?

Moving them shouldn't be an issue as long as the parameters are kept similar.

Cool, thanks

 

Yes with any additional.

They shouldn't want to jump in the main tank because they have complete access to each other.

 

Yes with any additional.

They shouldn't want to jump in the main tank because they have complete access to each other.

Got it. Thanks for the clarification.

 

I like your idea, and I especially like that you take some from the death row and give them another chance in life. Keep us updated how it goes.

 

John58ford This is my Endler thread.

 

John58ford This is my Endler thread.

I like your idea. My endler breeding started kind of similar to this. I used to buy my lfs out of feeders weekly for a small injured Northwest garter snake my children and I rescued while I was doing some yard work. He had been crushed in knowingly under a bucket or river rocks I think he was hibernating under. He is a few years under our care now and large and healthy enough his primary diet is now worms so I don't need to give him as many tiny fish.

My endler breeding started on accident, I had built him a 50/50 tank with half water so he could swim more. We see his breed of Garter swim allot when we go trout fishing. I added some feeder fish to his pond, and a week later had some babies. Turns out he's not fast enough to catch them in the little pond. At first I just controlled the population letting him have some in a smaller bowl but then started noticing specific coloring on some males. At that point I started selectively breeding and needed to set up some tubs on the side to grow the fry to full coloration. After 4 generations of culling and selecting the right male I ended up with a symmetrical looking peacock and 2 that are very close to symmetrical. The hidden challenge I didn't realize was actually selecting the least hybridized females, it's easier to spot the males when they color up, and not many people will talk about how amazing (boring) the female is and her identification.

I currently keep 3 females and their fry in the breeder "pond" and have seperated the males to my new network tanks.

I am still waiting to sex the 5th generation but am planning on keeping these males and females breeding while I stock some pretty tanks, for me to enjoy looking at, and not just tubs all around the house. If this batch looks good I will likely stay on gen 5 for quite a few drops as I already have friends asking for a few of these.

What was mentioned earlier about qt/meds for the feeders. Please do it. I put my males in bad water with new stock (qt just over a week with no symptoms and thought I was good) before I saw the harlequins passing tape worms. Now that I'm treating, with my males in there; I have seen that they already had a pre existing case. I'm sure I never noticed before since all my fish tended to be dinner for the snake before they got to 6 months. If you start clean, you will likely do better than I have. After I sex this batch of fry I will be dosing the breeding tank with meds as well. Also checking with a herp/vet about testing or treating the snake, though he has had no symptoms for years and I'm not sure the fish worms would be comunicable.

Here's a picture of my 3 generation 4 peacock males hanging out with a locally bred chilI (also called flame tail it's a smaller option of the common hybrids). I have been thinking about introducing the chilI to some of this drops females in a separate breeder to see what may happen.


Here is the breeder tanks set up so you know what I've been meaning in the other threads we have chatted in:


I recently thinned and propagated the crypts from this tank but this seems more than sufficient as my nitrates haven't spiked and the females and fry still hang out under them happily. The thing I really really like about the endlers is that they give away there feelings very quickly by displaying blackened pupils if they are mad or uncomfortable. You can easily tell if the males are over pressuring your females this way.

 

I like your idea. My endler breeding started kind of similar to this. I used to buy my lfs out of feeders weekly for a small injured Northwest garter snake my children and I rescued while I was doing some yard work. He had been crushed in knowingly under a bucket or river rocks I think he was hibernating under. He is a few years under our care now and large and healthy enough his primary diet is now worms so I don't need to give him as many tiny fish.

My endler breeding started on accident, I had built him a 50/50 tank with half water so he could swim more. We see his breed of Garter swim allot when we go trout fishing. I added some feeder fish to his pond, and a week later had some babies. Turns out he's not fast enough to catch them in the little pond. At first I just controlled the population letting him have some in a smaller bowl but then started noticing specific coloring on some males. At that point I started selectively breeding and needed to set up some tubs on the side to grow the fry to full coloration. After 4 generations of culling and selecting the right male I ended up with a symmetrical looking peacock and 2 that are very close to symmetrical. The hidden challenge I didn't realize was actually selecting the least hybridized females, it's easier to spot the males when they color up, and not many people will about how amazing (boring) the female is and her identification.

I currently keep 3 females and their fry in the breeder "pond" and have seriated the males to my new network tanks.

I am still waiting to sex the 5th generation but am planning on keeping these males and females paired up while I stock some pretty tanks, for me to enjoy looking at, and not just tubs all around the house. If this batch looks good I will likely stay on gen 5 for quite a few drops as I already have friends asking for a few of these.

What was mentioned earlier about qt/meds for the feeders. Please do it. I put my males in bad water with new stock before I saw the harlequins passing tape worms. Now that I'm treating, with my males in there. I have seen that they already had a pre existing case. I'm sure I never noticed before since all my fish tended to be dinner for the snake before they got 6 months. If you start clean, you will likely do better than I have. After I sent this batch of fry I will be doing the breeding tank with a dude as well. Also checking with a herp/vet about testing or treating the snake, though he has had no symptoms for years and I'm not sure the fish worms would be comunicable.

Here's a picture of my 3 generation 4 peacock males hanging out with a locally bred chilI (also called flame tail it's a smaller option of the common hybrids). I have been thinking about introducing the chilI to some of this drops females in a separate breeder to see what may happen.

So you have feeder guppies and a chilI male(s?), no real endlers, just guppy and guppy/endler hybrid. You will need to use virgin females to spawn the chilI male with if you are wanting any results beyond what you already have as the females store sperm from previous matings.
Feeder guppies are just guppies, not hybrids.

 

So you have feeder guppies and a chilI male(s?), no real endlers, just guppy and guppy/endler hybrid. You will need to use virgin females to spawn the chilI male with if you are wanting any results beyond what you already have as the females store sperm from previous matings.
Feeder guppies are just guppies, not hybrids.

Correct, I have no native class endlers, I started with generic hybridized feeders and selectively bred to the least hybrid I could find in each drop to get those peacock colored males.

You are right in that I will need to, and and planning on starting a separate breed tank with fresh females to see what happens with the chili. I do not expect it to breed true. I will be using females from the current drop for that test.

I got the chilI from an employee at a lfs that was talking to me about my project while I was selecting fish for the community portion of a tank network I am starting up. He breeds the hybrid chilI and wanted to swap some stock. Most of that stores feeders are endler hybrids as that's what the local breeders are trying to use to miniaturize the fish.

I think it's pretty cool that sorg had a similar idea and we happened to find each other's content here.

In case you're worried about the ethics of hybridizing endlers, I have no intention of selling our distributing these as pure endlers, but there is a decent scene in hybrids in my local right now as they fit the nano tank trend better than fancies and still look very cool.

I do have respect for those that paper and breed the native endler and without their occasional off breds being sold here as feeders I would not have been able to produce what I have gotten to.

Sadly I suck a fish pics but here's a closer look at those 3. They are definitely an guppy/endler hybrid, I just wasn't the one that owned the original endler. They are more streamlined than common guppy, have a single barb gonopodium and came into near full color at half an inch. Thanks for you input on my thing, sorry if there was a little hijacking on sorgs thread. Though I feel this is still relevant since he wants to try selective breeding some feeders before possibly buying a few true endlers, these were my results from doing the same. I look forward to looking through some of your stuff as well as you seem to be a pretty analytical person as well as I've seen in our current nitrogen cycle conversations.

 

These look a lot like my guys. I will have to learn about identifying the females with more Endler characteristics.

I will get some pictures. But they are fast little guys.

View attachment 635729

 

These look a lot like my guys. I will have to learn about identifying the females with more Endler characteristics.

I will get some pictures. But they are fast little guys.

I'm not sure if you buy from a Ma and Pa type lfs or not but there's a good chance you may have ended up with throw away hybrids too. I stopped through today in my way home from work and asked about the feeder tank. My LFS doesn't order any feeders, and I guess that's why I ran them dry weekly. They take locally bred live bearers and when the breeders or hobbyists bring them in any that don't fit the breed description can still be sold to them at $.05-$.25 each in credit. Much like returning a fish for re-homing. I guess I could even bring them in, never knew. They say that's why they charge a dollar to cherry pick or $.25 each for a net full. They even pointed out a couple deformed Molly in there today, I guess I never looked close enough lol.

 

Yes, I got my feeders from an independent LFS. I do not know where they came from. I paid $1 for a random scoop of 20. I am hoping I will be able to trade 20 to 50 of my culled fish for one or two choice males.

 

Did the you speak with the LFS to make sure it is possible?

 

I have discussed my plan with them. I have bought a lot of stuff from them. We have a good relationship. They will take my culled fish for their feeder tank. Do not yet know if they will give me anything in trade. And do not yet know if there are any conditions. Worst case, I can get a random scoop of 20 for $1 and pick what I want out of the random scoop. Maybe I will take three random scoops and see what I get.

The biggest challenge is that I am becoming attached to my fish and I will have a hard time putting them in the feeder tank. Not rational and I will have to get over that. I will have more fish than I can keep.

 

I have become interested in Endlers. They are either a close cousin of Guppy or a Guppy variant depending on who you talk to. They are either extinct in the wild or close to extinct. I have read that Endlers in their wild state are more colorful than wild Guppies and their colors are more vibrant. Guppies tend to have more pastel colors and Endlers have more electric colors. Endlers are more active and faster swimmers.

There are Endler breeders who are devoted to keeping the strain alive and keeping it pure and separate from Guppy cross breeding. Some of these breeders are Registered "N Class" breeders who can trace their fish back to wild caught Endlers. Many of these breeders develop their own strains and breed for certain characteristics - colors and fin characteristics.

I would like to breed for wild characteristics. I have only a faint idea of what these characteristics would be. I am interested in learning more about these characteristics and learning more about the breeding practices that would achieve my goals.

My original thought was that I would get breeding trios from three or four different breeders, throw them all together in a large tank and let nature take its course. I had assumed that natural characteristics would emerge from this process. I would occasionally add another fish to the colony to keep adding outside DNA to the gene pool and seek a very diverse, healthy hardy gene pool.

However, in another thread I participated in an interesting discussion of line breeding. I learned a little about breeding in this discussion and mostly learned that there is a lot more to learn. My sister (phd in genetics) suggested that I begin by line breeding each trio for at least one generation to see if the original trio breed true. This would be interesting since it would afford me the opportunity to learn about line breeding.

So my current thinking is that I will start by researching:

1. Endlers in general
2. Ender breeders
3. Breeding practices

I am thinking that I might start line breeding one trio for a generation or two and observe how they breed. Then put them in a colony tank and repeat for two or three more trios. Then I could observe how the pure trios bred in the first generation or two. And then watch how the colony would evolve.

If the colony did not evolve toward the wild characteristics I am looking for, then I would have to develop a culling protocol or some kind of line breeding procedure.

Not going to do this any time soon. Just researching the idea for now. Maybe I will just start with a mixed colony and see what happens.

No matter what happens, I can be sure of two things; 1) it won't go as planned 2) I will learn in the process

Looking forward to some interesting comments.

GuppyDazzle
PascalKrypt
blindfaith429
angelcraze

I have heard there a different species. Cool project.

 

I have heard there a different species. Cool project.

Yes, some people say that.

However, Endlers and guppies will breed with each other and produce fertile offspring which is one of the indicators of the same species. So there is a difference of opinion on the subject of whether Endlers are a guppy variant or a different species.

 

Yes, some people say that.

However, Endlers and guppies will breed with each other and produce fertile offspring which is one of the indicators of the same species. So there is a difference of opinion on the subject of whether Endlers are a guppy variant or a different species.

Closely related animals can reproduce together and have fertile offspring (think of canids, wolves and coyotes can reproduce and have fertile offspring) without having to be the same species. (tigons and ligers are another example, they are fertile).

 

Yes, some people say that.

However, Endlers and guppies will breed with each other and produce fertile offspring which is one of the indicators of the same species. So there is a difference of opinion on the subject of whether Endlers are a guppy variant or a different species.

Endlers are Poecilia wingeI and guppies are Poecilia reticulata. Different species but?

 

Closely related animals can reproduce together and have fertile offspring (think of canids, wolves and coyotes can reproduce and have fertile offspring) without having to be the same species. (tigons and ligers are another example, they are fertile).

My understanding is that the ability to breed and produce fertile offspring is one of the indicators used to define species but it is not definitive. The line between species is grey and ultimately a judgement call. That is why some consider Endlers a separate species and some do not. I am not an expert so I have no opinion. I only know that I have read both opinions.

Endlers are Poecilia wingeI and guppies are Poecilia reticulata. Different species but?

Different species according to someone's opinion who gave them the names. My understanding is that some people do not accept this distinction.

It does not matter to me. They are different enough from common fancy guppies to appeal to me and that is all that really matters to me. The rest of it is just academically interesting.

I have had at least two fry drops. Maybe more. My fish are small and probably stressed coming out of a feeder tank. Perhaps small drops of just a few. First was seven. Second was maybe 3 or 4.

I am hoping to have two more tanks up and running soon so I can begin separating and keeping better track.

I am starting to understand why serious breeders line breed. It is necessary to keep track and control of the process. I wonder if I could achieve my goals by line breeding several lines and crossing every generation. I wonder if I could line breed several lines for a few generations and then create a colony that would maintain the desired characteristics.

And then line breed out crossed new members into the colony. I guess any colony project would need to have a large capacity for grow out and a consistent demand for the progeny.

If I develop some cool looking Endlerish fish, could I ethically represent them as "Endler Hybrids"? If they look like Endlers is it fair to assume that they have enough Endler characteristics to represent them this way?

 

If I develop some cool looking Endlerish fish, could I ethically represent them as "Endler Hybrids"? If they look like Endlers is it fair to assume that they have enough Endler characteristics to represent them this way?

If you find the specific traits only common to endler, I personally do think you should call them endler hybrids. There are specific to endler color patterns, the gonopodium is slimmer and the tiny little fuzz looking stuff at the top will have less than 3 barbs. The body shape is sleeker. Most endler makes will not clear 3/4". I have store bought "tiger endlers" in my show tank. These are a hybrid and in my case have far more guppy traits than endler, but the coloration pattern is specific to endler over the bright tiger stripes you can see the metallic endler green and orange rainbow, and the size as well. The spade tail is guppy, the gono is guppy, and the body is thicker like a guppy. The breeder, lfs, and most of the internet still call it a tiger endler though. It would be wrong to call them otherwise tbh.

In my case I have gotten the fish breed down to have every trait known of a peacock endler. The only thing that down grades them even in an endler only guide is that the orange stripe is broken behind the dorsal, that would put them at symmetrical grade. When I refer to them casually they are endlers. Their care and requirements more closely match the endler. Their behavior is as described in endler. If anyone wants to know something more specific, they are an extremely hardy mut with predominantly peacock endler traits. My store bought tigers dwarf them, the chilI that was bred by the employee is younger and dwarfs them, the bin I got gen 1 from may very well have been throw aways from the same guy that didn't breed true to what was trendy that month.

Example: If you adopt a labradoodle that was of unknown origin, and it looked more poodle than the common Labrador, it would be wrongfulll to call it's puppies "Labrador" if they retained the same dominant poodle traits. This would be a "poodle hybrid". If you bred it with poodle for 3 more generations it would eventually lose all the lab characteristics and then what do you call it? You can never register it, but what you would have there is a poodle.

 

If I develop some cool looking Endlerish fish, could I ethically represent them as "Endler Hybrids"? If they look like Endlers is it fair to assume that they have enough Endler characteristics to represent them this way?

No, if they do not have endler blood do not call them endlers, this is why there are different classes of endler. Just because it looks like something doesn't make it so. A razorbill is not a great auk.

A labrador/poodle is just a mutt, just because it has a fancy name (and current high cost - and everyone shaves them!! -most people won't brush them to the coat they have and the only option is to shave them-) doesn't make it something that requires a new designation, because it isn't a hybrid (dogs are dogs, they are the same species) unless it has been crossed with a coyote, wolf or other canid close enough related to successfully breed.

A tiger endler is still a hybrid fish, because it is not a true endler (I have a male tiger endler that was a left over fry when I sold off my colony, doesn't make him not a hybrid just because of the name). I sold them as hybrids, that is what they were, they had endler and guppy genes, so despite the fish never getting larger than your average endler male or female they were still hybrids (male I have is under an inch even when his tail is included).
I have neon green (also called lime green) endlers and japan blue endler (second is a definite hybrid, the first is from pure endler however they would be considered P class because I don't have a written record of their line).

 

By that logic it would be just as wrong to call them guppies since I do not know their true genetic make up.

I guess they are just cool looking fish that look like Endlers. It seems likely to me that they have a mix of Endler and Guppy dna. It is moot at the moment since I will be culling to the feeder tank. Just thinking down the road.

I suppose if I provide them to anyone, I can just explain how they came to be and they can call them what they want.

 

By that logic it would be just as wrong to call them guppies since I do not know their true genetic make up.

I guess they are just cool looking fish that look like Endlers. It seems likely to me that they have a mix of Endler and Guppy dna. It is moot at the moment since I will be culling to the feeder tank. Just thinking down the road.

I suppose if I provide them to anyone, I can just explain how they came to be and they can call them what they want.

Except they are mass breed guppies that are used to feed other creatures. They no longer look quite like their wild counterparts because being in an aquarium environment changes the fish, even in an F1 from wild parents.

 

I may have mis-used the term "Endler Hybrids". By that I meant hybrid Endler Guppy blends. But perhaps the true meaning of that term is hybrids of various Endler strains. That would clearly be wrong. Given that they look like Endlers it seems likely to me that they have a mix of Endler and Guppy DNA. But I really do not know that. They might just be small wild looking guppies with coloring that resembles Endlers.

They might have been bred for food. They might be culled from another breeder. They might be cast off from hobbyists like me. They are most certainly not pure Endlers. And I would not represent them as such. Although the LFS might. When he looked at the feeders he commented that it looked like there were some Endlers in there. Although when I asked him about getting Endlers for me, he indicated that I would need to get them from a registered breeder if I wanted pure Endlers.

We had yellow lab looking mutt when I was a kid. Looked like a yellow lab. Mother was a yellow lab (or looked like one). She was a bit under-sized. She was a great dog. Better than a pure lab in my book. But then my favorite types of dogs are mutts. Healthier, better temperament than pure bred dogs. That is really what I am trying to create is healthy hardy fish. Endlerish, guppy muts. That's it, I will call them "EGM's"....

I will ask my LFS where they come from. He will not know where these particular fish came from. He has already stated that he gets his feeders from a variety of sources. But he might be able to tell me if most of his feeders come from feeder farms or are culled from breeders.

It is really an academic question. I will just tell people they came a feeder tank and they are of unknown origin. That is all I really know. They are not going to be valuable and I am not going to sell them. And I will not misrepresent them Maybe get a little trade-in credit.

I am just hopeful I develop something people will want. I think they might make great starter fish for new hobbyists. Something cheap, hardy and easy to care for. Something that will withstand less than ideal water conditions. Maybe give away fish with a new aquarium set up.

Might be a rough life, but better than no life or short life in a feeder tank.

They no longer look quite like their wild counterparts because being in an aquarium environment changes the fish, even in an F1 from wild parents.

Yes, I am sure that is true. I would like to better understand what their wild counterparts look like and try to develop that. I understand that both guppies and Endlers tend to be more colorful in the absence of predators and less colorful in the presence of predators. So it seems that there is a natural selection process for color.

It seems that I should be able to select for color and develop ever more colorful fish.

 

That's it, I will call them "EGM's"....

I'm good with that, when my tank comes up, I really don't really to type, "strangely small endler colored guppies that came out of an endler hybrid breeders trash pile that I was told by a person on the internet should I not call endler hybrids-fish"

I agree on the hardy mutt thing too.

unless it has been crossed with a coyote, wolf or other canid

We had one of these when I was a kid. Border collie Wolf mix. Dad and his brothers each had one. Used to lie to DFW when asked while out hiking (allot of state have laws against wolf hybrids) and say he was just a sheep dog. His great grand children now go by the name border collie when asked, there hasn't been any wolf added to that blood line in 45 years and they look like Collies. My cousins still have a few. If one we're to sell one of those puppies, you sure wouldn't get akc registered money for them, but by all intents and purposes, if a family just wants a border collie, those would work quite well.

I have no intent to sell my EGMs but will give them to friends here that have seen them in tank in person and have started their own waiting list lol. The lfs employee that wanted to swap stock is getting a few of my virgin females, as funny as it is he says his sunset line needs a refresh for color. I have one of those males too but to be honest, it's a boring looking little fish.

 

Some of my little guys are starting to color up a bit. Each one is a different. Some really interesting markings. It will be difficult to decide what to select for.

I can see how it would be easy to get into line breeding for particular characteristics. Something interesting pops up. You isolate that fish and breed a line from it.

I like the randomness of it. But I suppose if I start selecting, the randomness will decline over time.