Guppy and Endler's hybrids - color genetics?

I have some guppies that came out of a colony my brother is keeping. His colony includes Fancy guppies and Endler's livebearers, and due to the coloration, I'm pretty sure the 3 I took in as fry and raised outside of his colony are hybrids of the two. The male has a strange coloration where the front half of his body is iridescent blue like the Endler's livebearers in my brother's colony, but about halfway down the body there is a stark color change to black. His fins are bright orange like some of the fancy guppies in my brother's colony. The other two of the ones I raised from fry are females, with mostly transparent front halves fading into black. Both have orange tails but one has black spots and one has strange black stripes. He's also given me an additional male out of his colony, and I added an unrelated female Endler's. So the current ratio of my guppies is 2 males, 3 females.

I'm on the lookout for a couple more females, but I'm being a little picky about who I add in because I want to keep the strange coloration of the ones out of my brother's colony. The ones I have are probably first or second generation hybrids, so I want to see what this line would look like in 2 or 3 more generations. I also don't want my colony to collapse from inbreeding though, which is why I'm adding in some unrelated non-hybrids.

Who else is keeping a hybrid colony? Are you guys getting these strange colors too? Are the patterns heritable? What changes have you noticed in further generations?

 

Had I kept on with my own hybrid Endler project I’d have had to research the colour genetics but I ended up having to abandon it for reasons beyond my control. I got some very nice fish but could not keep on long enough to fix a strain as I desired to do. So I really don’t know much about it, unfortunately, though it’s something I’d like to learn more about.

They are so close to guppies I’d expect a lot of overlap with guppy colour genetics though - if I’m wrong on that I hope someone will enlighten me.

I started out with female guppies and P class Black Bar and Green male Endlers - two of the females were very dark, near black from mid body right through the caudal fin but I can’t recall what the rest of them looked like, it’s been too long now.

I ended up keeping all the leucistic fish with orange and yellow and a lot of them showed some iridescent light green or blue. I was trying to weed out the bluish iridescence.

The picture isn’t the best but it shows one of the males I was pleased with and lots of his ladies.

 

Had I kept on with my own hybrid Endler project I’d have had to research the colour genetics but I ended up having to abandon it for reasons beyond my control. I got some very nice fish but could not keep on long enough to fix a strain as I desired to do. So I really don’t know much about it, unfortunately, though it’s something I’d like to learn more about.

They are so close to guppies I’d expect a lot of overlap with guppy colour genetics though - if I’m wrong on that I hope someone will enlighten me.

I started out with female guppies and P class Black Bar and Green male Endlers - two of the females were very dark, near black from mid body right through the caudal fin but I can’t recall what the rest of them looked like, it’s been too long now.

I ended up keeping all the leucistic fish with orange and yellow and a lot of them showed some iridescent light green or blue. I was trying to weed out the bluish iridescence.

The picture isn’t the best but it shows one of the males I was pleased with and lots of his ladies.

What a looker! I love how the fry look like tiny stomachs with eyeballs My brother's Endler's look different, let me see if I can find the right name. They have striping similar to the yellow Cobras, but longer tails and iridescent blue bodies.

What a looker! I love how the fry look like tiny stomachs with eyeballs My brother's Endler's look different, let me see if I can find the right name. They have striping similar to the yellow Cobras, but longer tails and iridescent blue bodies.

Alright, now I'm starting to wonder if his males that were sold to him as Endler's may be hybrids to begin with. I can't find quite the right fish in either Endler's or guppies. I'll see if I can get some photos of his.

 

What a looker! I love how the fry look like tiny stomachs with eyeballs My brother's Endler's look different, let me see if I can find the right name. They have striping similar to the yellow Cobras, but longer tails and iridescent blue bodies.

Thanks! I got some very pretty fish out of the project though I no longer have any of them, which is a little depressing. I had to sell them off.

 

Thanks! I got some very pretty fish out of the project though I no longer have any of them, which is a little depressing. I had to sell them off.

I know how that goes. I've lived in 6 states and something like 24 cities now. Sometimes it is just too far a trip to be fair to them. I'm sorry you had to go through that! Hopefully they got good homes.

Would you ever want to try keeping a hybrid colony again?

 

I know how that goes. I've lived in 6 states and something like 24 cities now. Sometimes it is just too far a trip to be fair to them. I'm sorry you had to go through that! Hopefully they got good homes.

Would you ever want to try keeping a hybrid colony again?

I hope to be moving again in a couple of years, not that I really want to but it if it works out, it would be to a house with a basement and more room than I will ever be able to carve out in this apartment. If that happens I’d probably try again, see if I could recreate something like the fish I had before. I liked the leucism because it made the females as visible as the males instead of pretty dull as Endler females generally are. No idea if the genes for leucism are very common or whether I just got lucky - so never any guarantees but they’re fun to work with and watch.

Probably depend some on what shape I’m in too - I’ll be 70 next January so time’s a passin’.

 

I hope to be moving again in a couple of years, not that I really want to but it if it works out, it would be to a house with a basement and more room than I will ever be able to carve out in this apartment. If that happens I’d probably try again, see if I could recreate something like the fish I had before. I liked the leucism because it made the females as visible as the males instead of pretty dull as Endler females generally are. No idea if the genes for leucism are very common or whether I just got lucky - so never any guarantees but they’re fun to work with and watch.

Probably depend some on what shape I’m in too - I’ll be 70 next January so time’s a passin’.

I hope your body continues to hold up for you! And mine too, honestly. I'm 25 and chronically ill enough to be 70.

Leucism in Endler's/Guppies sounds like it would be really interesting! What did it look like in yours?

 

A nice light golden body colour that was a bit translucent - black eyes of course. The colour on the boys was limited to reds/oranges/yellows in terms of pigmentation. The blues and greens are tricks of the light, more or less optical illusions, because there is no green or blue pigment in any animals on earth with but one exception - Synchiropus splendidus, Mandarin dragonet. In my fish the iridescence was quite variable - pale blues and greens mostly.

 

Who else is keeping a hybrid colony? Are you guys getting these strange colors too? Are the patterns heritable? What changes have you noticed in further generations?

Besides pure endlers and pure guppies, I also keep hybrid strains and mixed hybrids. Using already mixed guppies or mixed endlers will always be a surprise of what may come out as an offspring. If you are using true breeding or pure endler or guppy species, may give you a better insight of how the offspring may look like when you crossbreed.
Pure endlers genetics works a bit different in comparison to guppy genetics.

These are magenta tuxedo guppies. Also known as magents HB (halfblack) and flamingo dancer. They belong to the socalled velvet guppies.

This is a guppy and not a hybrid. It's a tuxedo red guppy with some platinum influence.

The picture isn’t the best but it shows one of the males I was pleased with and lots of his ladies.

This male of yours is a blond endler (no specific name was ever given to these kinds of endler hybrids). This kind of blond endler hybrid is the blond equivalent of the black bar endler. And this blond strain is the result of a male black bar endler to a female blond guppy. I've kept and still keep them for 20 years now. In the States you may call them golden instead of blond. But we look at the base color.

The red splotches on the body differ in shape and number per individual male. Some may show even some green on the body.

I do have to say that we call guppies and endlers leucistic when the body is white and black eyes. That can be white translucent to a very dense white body. We don't call golden of blond leucistic, to be honest.

 

Besides pure endlers and pure guppies, I also keep hybrid strains and mixed hybrids. Using already mixed guppies or mixed endlers will always be a surprise of what may come out as an offspring. If you are using true breeding or pure endler or guppy species, may give you a better insight of how the offspring may look like when you crossbreed.
Pure endlers genetics works a bit different in comparison to guppy genetics.
View attachment 885548 These are magenta tuxedo guppies. Also known as magents HB (halfblack) and flamingo dancer. They belong to the socalled velvet guppies.
View attachment 885549 This is a guppy and not a hybrid. It's a tuxedo red guppy with some platinum influence.

This male of yours is a blond endler (no specific name was ever given to these kinds of endler hybrids). This kind of blond endler hybrid is the blond equivalent of the black bar endler. And this blond strain is the result of a male black bar endler to a female blond guppy. I've kept and still keep them for 20 years now. In the States you may call them golden instead of blond. But we look at the base color.

I do have to say that we call guppies and endlers leucistic when the body is white and black eyes. That can be white translucent to a very dense white body. We don't call golden of blond leucistic, to be honest.

Different terminology for different places, I guess. Lots of people would call them blonde here too but leucism is the reason they show this colour.

 

Different terminology for different places, I guess. Lots of people would call them blonde here too but leucism is the reason they show this colour.

I've written an article which includes leucism in ovoviviparous livebearers for the Poecilia news a few years ago.

 

I've written an article which includes leucism in ovoviviparous livebearers for the Poecilia news a few years ago.

I would not mind reading it - don’t suppose it’s available for E readers?

 

I would not mind reading it - don’t suppose it’s available for E readers?

No, sorry. It's a magazine that is only published in Holland.

 

This pic gives an idea of my cobra and French blue crosses. They come out as either cobra or French blue with a shark type tail with yellow/orange/red/white markings.

I’m working the next generation of the cobra types into a matched pair of orange fish with nice markings. Females are black tailed with orange markings.

The French blue types are being selected for black and orange shark type tails with a blue peacock like eye in the middle. Those are outside in tubs for now.

 

No, sorry. It's a magazine that is only published in Holland.

Sorry to hear that. I’d have liked to read it.

This pic gives an idea of my cobra and French blue crosses. They come out as either cobra or French blue with a shark type tail with yellow/orange/red/white markings.

I’m working the next generation of the cobra types into a matched pair of orange fish with nice markings. Females are black tailed with orange markings.

The French blue types are being selected for black and orange shark type tails with a blue peacock like eye in the middle. Those are outside in tubs for now.View attachment 885559

The extent of the sexual dimorphism in these fish always amazes me. Looking like some very nice fish there too.

 

Sorry to hear that. I’d have liked to read it.

There are plans to get the articles of Poecilia news available on the net. But that may still take a while.

 

There are plans to get the articles of Poecilia news available on the net. But that may still take a while.

Hope it happens sooner than later.

 

Hope it happens sooner than later.

I use to live close by. I was resident for a while in Oakville, Ont. My parents in law also used to live in Mississauga on Dundas Cres..
Btw, I do have my own livebearer website as well. It's in English. It's not commercial, btw. You can check my personal data for it. I'm a passionate livebearer fan ever since the 1970's. Currently also leading the national guppy and endler working group. And it concerns both wild and breeding forms. And I share the guppy and endler genetics subject with Fred Poeser (one of the last name givers of the scientific name of the endler).
I've judged internationally livebearers in Holland and Germany at international shows. And also a specific specialization at shows in wild and breeding forms of guppies and endlers. I'm glad that we have other members like you overhere who also have an admiration for guppies and endlers.

 

I use to live close by. I was resident for a while in Oakville, Ont. My parents in law also used to live in Mississauga on Dundas Cres..
Btw, I do have my own livebearer website as well. It's in English. It's not commercial, btw. You can check my personal data for it. I'm a passionate livebearer fan ever since the 1970's. Currently also leading the national guppy and endler working group. And it concerns both wild and breeding forms. And I share the guppy and endler genetics subject with Fred Poeser (one of the last name givers of the scientific name of the endler).
I've judged internationally livebearers in Holland and Germany at international shows. And also a specific specialization at shows in wild and breeding forms of guppies and endlers. I'm glad that we have other members like you overhere who also have an admiration for guppies and endlers.

Dundas Cr. Isn’t very far from me - what a small world it is. I was quite enamoured of Endlers the first time I saw one and only wish I had the space to keep all the fish I’d like to keep, a problem I am sure is widely shared in the hobby. I’ll check out the website, thanks!

 

Heh, little more of a drive but I have family in London lol

 

Heh, little more of a drive but I have family in London lol

I've drove a couple of times to London, Ont. Nice place!

 

Heh, little more of a drive but I have family in London lol

My Mom’s whole family live in or near London and until she passed, I used to spend half my time there with her after she moved back to London from BC. It is quite a nice city.

 

My Mom’s whole family live in or near London and until she passed, I used to spend half my time there with her after she moved back to London from BC. It is quite a nice city.

And now I’m a bit South of BC around Seattle lol

 

And now I’m a bit South of BC around Seattle lol

A very small world.