Gulping / Piping Baby GF QT tank

Decided to keep a record on recent acquisition last week. Currently have a what I believe a baby or runt 1 inch (not including tail) fancy GF. He is currently in a 10 gallon QT tank that was previously used by a 6 inch Blood Parrot.

PH - 7
Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - <5

Temp - 74 F

He arrived at home and was introduced to the QT fairly easily. No signs of stress. No hiding. Was Acclimating nicely. First things noticed was that he is not the best swimmer. He was also one of the smaller ones in the lot but cute factor was pretty high. Eating and pooping first day.

By mid to end of first week noticed excessive surface gulping and bottom level yawning which signaled me an issue. This symptom has continued now onto the second week. If this continues with no resolution, then his fate of swim bladder disease is imminent.

Things that have been tried so far.

Aeration: I done different aeration setups from including manual water changes to reoxygenate. Adding more air stones. Playing with different level strengths of flow. Finding the right balance of flow and aeration is difficult with a smaller fish as it just completely levels him if he enters the air stream. I've also done a configuration where there is no tank current and just pure surface agitation causing a boiling pot look pointing inline tubes at the surface. So far no long term resolution.

I thought to myself....Maybe there's TOO much oxygenation....reduced surface agitation to no bubbling only slight ripple. Not much change.

For now I am sticking with 2 sponge filter and 1 airline tube for oxygenation. Will test with a HOB filter later but i do not expect any changes.

The race to resolve his issue continues....

Possible gill flukes or cross contamination?

Changed water. Took out all decorations. Began first dose of PaziPro. Noticed some shimmying and twitching to the medications. Is this just a reaction? or is the meds working to kill off any parasites. Not enough twitching to be conclusive.

4 days passed. Second Dose of Pazipro started Sunday night. This was the best I've seen him throughout the night. Minimized surface gulping...and the times that he did....were very quick gulps instead of gulps lasting for more than 10 seconds. Thinking we are getting somewhere.

Fast forward today....Gulping has resumed.....Not good. Decided to do a 50% water change and to clean up his poop. He is still surface gulping. Will do a third dose in 2 days.

He is still eating and still very active. Never been fed floating foods. I'm hoping time is not running out for me to figure something out. It could be he was just born with a genetic disadvantage and requires him to gulp excessively to regulate his swim bladder. I have decided to live stream the tank in hopes to share the QT journey and perhaps one of the community members can give some insights / input.

Below is the live stream.

View attachment 864373


Going offline for a few. Am going to lower the water level and change out inline tube for temp HOB as surface agitation.
*Update*
Stream is back online. Drip agitation made no difference with HOB....Took it back out as it was just taking up real estate and current was a bit too much even on lowest setting.

Update
I have added some pool filter sand to cover about 50% of the floor to rule out behavioral or learned gulping that he may have gotten from the LFS and giving him something to sift through and additional stimulation... It may be a bad call to add sand if it will irritate his already what seems to be weakened gills. Also if I notice any bottom sores on him, I will remove it right away.

 

11/2/2022 9:21 PM
Ambient Room temps getting higher tonight. Water Temp is 75 F. Decided to lower the water level to make it swim to the top a little easier. Also upped the surface agitation to deal with the warmer temps but it should cool down tonight. Little guy is now sifting through the sand as expected. Did see him twitch a few times from the sand most likely being flushed through the gills. Still piping frequently at the surface. Will see how he rests tonight. Tomorrow might do another water change and prepare for either 3rd dose of Pazipro or Fritz Paracleanse. Live stream will be up indefinitely just in case someone from the community decides to monitor his current condition and give some assistance.

 

11/3/2022 - 11:15 AM

Removed the sand. Noticed increased twitching perhaps from gill irritation. Also hacked one of the sponge filters to add in a airstone as he was getting tossed around from the larger bubbles. Gulping/Piping is still noticeable with sometimes gulping sessions lasting over 20 seconds associated with wide open mouth yawning. Am also wondering if he has some genetic issue with his swim bladder where he needs to gulp air regularly to regulate his buoyancy. Fear is long term piping/gulping will lead to swim bladder disease. Pazipro 3rd dose or fritz Paracleanse will probably start in a bit to rule out any gill flukes.

 

Goldfish are so darn cute.

It is possible what you are seeing is stress? The tank is wide open, no background, deco or plants for security.

What made you choose to treat with Pazipro?

 

Goldfish are so darn cute.

It is possible what you are seeing is stress? The tank is wide open, no background, deco or plants for security.

What made you choose to treat with Pazipro?

I took out all decos to treat in preparation of medication. Originally there were 2 small silk plants and a cave. I also wanted to rule out any leeching of the decos to make sure that wasn't what was causing his gasping. He never really used it much to hide which was great in showing he was not stressed coming home. After the treatment I can put it back in since he is still gulping.

At this point it is just process of elimination:
No Ammonia or Nitrites - (Although i was not expecting any since one of the filters was taken out of a cycled tank.

Aeration - This included manual oxygenation with water changes. increasing surface agitation with pumps and drips. Lowering water levels by 2-3 inches. Symptoms persisted

Over-oxygenation - Reduced flow of pumps and surface agitation. Symptoms persists.

So now I am trying to rule out internal parasites or Gill Flukes or anything that's causing his gills to struggle. So I went with Pazipro. I have just replenished the tank and did a 3rd dose. Fed him half a pea also.

At this point it's pretty much a guessing game. Hence the live stream so that wonderful people like yourself can watch and possibly comment on something else I can try.

 

11/4/2022 - 8:43 AM

Just fed him breakfast. Also added his decos back since I doubt I will dose a 4th dose of prazi. Noticed he lost his 2 little nubbins he had in the beginning. His face and shape is slowly changing and growing in.








I saw a major flash/twitch yesterday as he banged into the bottom of the tank sideways. Was this just another reaction to the pazipro or was it fluke die off? Glass surfing has increased quite a bit but I am use to this with new fish. Surface Gulping is still happening and bouts can last for 20 seconds or more. However when he forages, I've seen him forage for what it seems to be 10 minutes or more without coming up for air.

10:15 AM
I removed the decos again. I noticed him starting to yawn more frequently since adding them back in.


11:05 AM
I unplugged one of the airline tubings that was directly agitating the surface just in case he decided to get caught in it and reduce the size of the bubbles. Jerry Rigged and replaced with an above surface pour from the top. Being held up by Shipping tape. Let's hope it doesn't fall off and flood the place. Seems to be holding

 

5:16PM
The duration of his gulping sessions seems to have decreased. Unfortunately he is now expelling bubbles at the surface when gulping on a consistent basis which means to me he is still having a hard time getting Oxygen in. Swimming pattern up and down up and down.

Quick Ammonia and PH check. Nothing out of the ordinary. Increased above surface pour just a tad bit. Current water temps are 73F which is adequate but maybe this QT tank is having a hard time with maintaining DO levels. Placed a fan to try and cool down water a few degrees to see if that helps him a bit. The struggle continues.

8:19 PM
Lights off. Gasping / Gulping has increased back again. Each interval is now lasting around 30 full seconds. So far all my attempts in saving/resolving his issue has failed. Going to begin a 24 hour fasting. Contemplating also on a 4 dose of Pazipro. Dosing wouldn't start for another 2 days. Might let him rest though for a few days. If anyone is out there or willing to look at the live stream....Any suggestions are welcome...

 

11:37 PM

powered off the top drip pump and went back to under surface airline tube for surface agitation. looks like the down pour at the current height in such a small tank was too stressful for him as I saw him stressing out with erratic glass surfing and restlessness. After the change, noticed he calmed down and about 30 min later, was able to go to sleep. Poor guy....Probably exhausted as well. Contemplating on moving him to a bigger QT, but unfortunately it's being taken up by a recovering bullied Blood Parrot. Looking into getting possibly a 105 qt. plastic container tomorrow with a wider surface area and keep at a lower water level to make him more comfortable while I continue to figure out what's wrong. At least he is resting now...

 

11/5/2022 - 8:28 AM

It is morning. Gulping seems less severe at the moment but still there. Also still see him expelling bubbles at the surface whenever he comes up. Past 15 minutes saw him yawn twice as well. Also, plan on getting a DO test kit. I understand the chemical tests are not the most reliable, but it maybe it would help me confirm if it's really a DO issue or not.

 

3:34 PM

Moved him to a sterilite plastic container. Added an additional water volume so he's now in about 18-19 gallon QT. No difference with the extra surface area. He seems to be still gulping air. Doing a DO test shortly.

4:02 PM
Performed Salifert O2 twice. Took water from top of surface and from bottom. O2 reads around 8. Didn't think it was an oxygen issue but needed some backing that it wasn't. The struggle continues

 

Prematurely started his 4th dose of praziquantel a day early by mistake. But he also got double the water volume today and the Pazipro on the 3rd dose should have started taping off considerably so I am not too worried. Decided to go with paracleanse as the 4th dose. This will be the final dose.

If he still exhibits behavior then I can only conclude either he was injured by getting batted around from water flow or he came with a genetic issue. However I will keep digging and looking for therapeutic treatments. I may get a bottle of MB just to have in hand for the future to aid him in his oxygen intake and see if that has any improvements. Will also see if possibly a bacterial infection in the swim bladder.

So far he has shown no signs of physical illness that I can see, nor any clamping of fins.

 

Fed him a tiny bit today. He attacked the food. Will resume normal feeding schedule for now. After this week, will look into MB treatment. Still excessive surface gasping and gill flushing. Will perform WC in 4 days to take out meds.

 

Head is starting to point downwards while in stationary position while he's chewing. Healthy appetite still even with the meds. Symptoms still seem to be unchanged.

 

did a 50% WC this morning. Will do another 50% tonight to take out/dilute remaining meds. Heavy expelling of bubbles at surface this morning especially after WC. New water was pre-dechlorinated yesterday with API essentials and aerated for 12+ hours. Temp was within 1 degree of current tank water.
Will break up the remaining 50% in 2x25% sessions about a few hours apart to minimize any WC stress

 

Completed his 100% WC tonight He might just be a perpetual gulper. Didn't see this behavior with the last couple of fancies. At least he's eating and active.... I may keep him past 4 weeks in QT to try and grow him out a bit to give him a fighting chance in the destination tank.

 

That is one huge exercise you have been through, WOW!

 

Saw him piping/gulping at surface excessively last night. sessions were over 1 min long. he needs to learn he will never be given floating food. After a couple days break, slowly introduced aquarium salt into his water to help him with his gill functions. Under dosed about 20-30% due to his size. Will remove 50% of the salt after 4 days since there will be no care taking for about a week. Otherwise, still active and eating.

Off topic, the BP in another hospital/QT is still stationed there. Wounds have not fully healed yet after a month. Scales not 100% yet with still the white area on both sides that was damaged. Most of his black stress marks are gone except for a small black dot. Still extremely shy and skittish whenever anyone approaches the tank. wonder if it remembers the bullying/attack from the rest of the group....

 

Seeing some improvements. Reacting well to the light supplemental salt dose. Wondering if he will need this permanently or have some salt dosage in the other tank after QT. He's transitioned more from in place surface gulping to more surface skimming. He's starting to look more like a healthy GF. Also appeared to be able to sleep well at night.

 

Maybe it's your GH (fix it with epsom salt,) maybe there's something in the air entering the tank, or maybe the possible gill flukes that he's endured have damaged the gills. Gills are pretty resilient and can grow back, but sometimes flukes cause permanent gill damage, in which the fish will never recover. A very small, consistent dose of salt will probably be fine; it'll add and retain salt and a few other electrolytes which helps breathing, but too much can cause significant stress on the kidneys, potentially leading to kidney failure which almost always kills. Epsom salt adds essential minerals, raises GH to a more suitable level, and keep his digestive tract rollin' along smoothly in case the compacted body is [very likely] causing stress.

 

Maybe it's your GH (fix it with epsom salt,)

That did cross my mind so I had put a small media bag of crushed coral in there to see if there were any improvements. It's still in there. I did not consider epsom but may try it since I do have some on hand.

maybe there's something in the air entering the tank

It is an open tank, but then again there's also another open tank and another half open tank in the area, Could be my vaping. I try to be mindful but I should stop it when i'm around there.

or maybe the possible gill flukes that he's endured have damaged the gills. Gills are pretty resilient and can grow back, but sometimes flukes cause permanent gill damage, in which the fish will never recover.

For sure. It's really expect the worst and hope for the best. I did treat him for flukes but had no way of confirming since I don't have a scope. Because I didn't see any darkness or swelling his gills externally...I'm hoping I did treat it in time if he did have. If he ends up having permanent damage then it's just support care from here on out I suppose.

A very small, consistent dose of salt will probably be fine; it'll add and retain salt and a few other electrolytes which helps breathing, but too much can cause significant stress on the kidneys, potentially leading to kidney failure which almost always kills.

Are you referring to aquarium salt? If so, I'm thinking keep it maybe 50-75% of manufacturers recommended dosage for general use if I'm going to continue to use it.

Epsom salt adds essential minerals, raises GH to a more suitable level, and keep his digestive tract rollin' along smoothly in case the compacted body is [very likely] causing stress.

Are you suggesting to TREAT the tank with Epsom as opposed to a bath? That is interesting. What would be the dosage you recommend?

 

That did cross my mind so I had put a small media bag of crushed coral in there to see if there were any improvements. It's still in there. I did not consider epsom but may try it since I do have some on hand.

It is an open tank, but then again there's also another open tank and another half open tank in the area, Could be my vaping. I try to be mindful but I should stop it when i'm around there.

For sure. It's really expect the worst and hope for the best. I did treat him for flukes but had no way of confirming since I don't have a scope. Because I didn't see any darkness or swelling his gills externally...I'm hoping I did treat it in time if he did have. If he ends up having permanent damage then it's just support care from here on out I suppose.

Are you referring to aquarium salt? If so, I'm thinking keep it maybe 50-75% of manufacturers recommended dosage for general use if I'm going to continue to use it.

Are you suggesting to TREAT the tank with Epsom as opposed to a bath? That is interesting. What would be the dosage you recommend?

I once rescued a goldfish with permanent fluke damage. I used a continuous dose of aquarium salt (50% initially, then 25% to reduce the risk of kidney damage), epsom salt at 50% strength to keep his mineral balance, digestive system, and swim bladder in check, foods high in vit C & D to support his immune system, kept his tank temp to 80°F to up his metabolism, reduce the risk of disease/parasites, and keep him generally much healthier, and frequent water changes for all the same reasons. Due to severe gill stress from his fryhood and the high temps which increased his metabolism and ability to fight disease, but also decreased his lifespan, I believe he only lived to 5 or 7 years. Unfortunately, this might be similar to your guy too

 

Have returned from my trip. Happy thanksgiving all. Took the little guy out and began drip acclimating him. Also gave him a a few minutes of Methylene blue dip/bath. Introduced him to new tank Much better results compared to my last attempt to introduce which I ended up having to donate due to constant chasing and stressing from the new GF. I believe since this one is smaller and younger, they are adjusting easier to the fish. He is still surface gulping and yawning/gill flushing but at least is active and exploring. I had to baffle the filter and lower airstones as he was getting blown around considerably anytime he entered the stream. Increased filter flow output while baffled to increase surface agitation.