Growth On Neon Tetra Eye

Tyrant

Active Member
Tank

What is the water volume of the tank?
30 gal
How long has the tank been running?
Two years
Does it have a filter?
Yes, canister rated for 60g
Does it have a heater?
Yes
What is the water temperature?
78
What is the entire stocking of this tank? (Please list all fish and inverts.)
5 (was 10 before yesterday I'm going to cry) neon tetras, 5 platys, 1 really juvenile guppy I randomly got with other fish, 1 rhino pleco (8 inch)

Maintenance
How often do you change the water?
Every other week, something like 4 gallons
How much of the water do you change?
oh, yeah 4 gallons
What do you use to treat your water?
API stress coat thing
Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water?
Both

*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish?
Yes (very established before I added these)
What do you use to test the water?
API "master test kit"
What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.

Ammonia: 0 - 0.25 (Never have seen what is exactly 0 on the card, maybe I'm just not seeing it against a correct background but it's never remotely green)
Nitrite: always light blue (0)
Nitrate: Hovers constantly around 40
pH: 7.4-7.6 (too high for normal pH but too low for high range pH lol...)

Feeding
How often do you feed your fish?
Daily
How much do you feed your fish?
Pinch and several blood worms, sometimes extra daphnia
What brand of food do you feed your fish?
HikarI and Tetra Color (live foods and flake respectively)
Do you feed frozen or freeze-dried foods?
Freeze-dried is what it says on the packaging

Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this fish?
3 Months
How long ago did you first notice these symptoms?
2 days ago
In a few words, can you explain the symptoms?
Some of my neon tetras first developed fin rot, I changed the water immediately after that but lost 3 the night after I saw it :c before my older ones died, it seems like they had these small extrusions or growths on their eyes? I couldn't find anything that looks remotely like it online, kinda like a dot that protrudes outwards. They also breath very fast near the bottom of the tank
Have you started any treatment for the illness?
Stress coat, paraguard, general cure (seems like it's all wasted though)
Was your fish physically ill or injured upon purchase?
No, well one had a somewhat damage gill flap, another was genetically weak (skinny), the rest were great neon's I had for 3 months and grew rather large (1-2inch, rather fat too)
How has its behavior and appearance changed, if at all?
Most of them breath faster now and they don't seem to school anymore, but that might be because both there is a lot of cover in the tank, and there's only 5 left



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Tyrant

Active Member
**** it, the second I thought that my tank was finally complete I lose half of my stock. Another tetra seems like it's just sitting in the jungle Val's breathing really heavily and not really moving, the last four don't seem to have it but they're probably going to die for some stupid reason too. I guess the actual question I have here, is what kills fish this quickly and sometimes has a weird protrusion growing on their eyes?
 
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Tyrant

Active Member
Any clues?? I've lost nearly all my neons to this it's so stupid. I only have three left... It's not affecting my platies or guppy fry at all.
 

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DoubleDutch

Fishlore Legend
Sorry to hear Tyrant.
Thing that puzzles me is that you had them for 3 months now and suddenly this happens. It rules out Ph-shock or even Columnaris to me (wouldn't expect them to die within days). What did you feed ?
 
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Tyrant

Active Member
Sorry to hear Tyrant.
Thing that puzzles me is that you had them for 3 months now and suddenly this happens. It rules out Ph-shock or even Columnaris to me (wouldn't expect them to die within days). What did you feed ?

Tetra Color tropical flakes (it says it's good until 9/2020) and blood worms from Hikari, which I also bought recently (2021 due date). I did do some decorating the tank over the weekend that was last Saturday, (well really just adjusted the pots of my plants, I stupidly left vals in rock wool for around a year in a pot and finally removed that from the tank, but there was no ammonia spike from that)...and it's the only thing that happened differently this week. Could a 20% water change kill them? It is a 30 gallon tank, but the common theme I see in the dead ones is that they have this strange growth on one or both of their eye lids right before they die...
Edit: They also always sit on the bottom of the tank and breath really rapidly before passing, you can also kinda see the thing on their eye in the second photo of my last comment, it's kinda hard to tell but if you see that gray thing, it is that.
 

DoubleDutch

Fishlore Legend
Tetra Color tropical flakes (it says it's good until 9/2020) and blood worms from Hikari, which I also bought recently (2021 due date). I did do some decorating the tank over the weekend that was last Saturday, (well really just adjusted the pots of my plants, I stupidly left vals in rock wool for around a year in a pot and finally removed that from the tank, but there was no ammonia spike from that)...and it's the only thing that happened differently this week. Could a 20% water change kill them? It is a 30 gallon tank, but the common theme I see in the dead ones is that they have this strange growth on one or both of their eye lids right before they die...
Edit: They also always sit on the bottom of the tank and breath really rapidly before passing
Mmmm I expect the water(change) to be treated. Strange.
 
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Tyrant

Active Member
Mmmm I expect the water(change) to be treated. Strange.
Well yes, I used API water conditioner/stress coat with them. Perhaps even too much of it, but I tend to add a little more because it says it helps with the slime coat and all that.
I'm thinking perhaps it was a few degrees colder water or the pH may have been slightly higher? I sometimes get different readings out of the tap but regardless, if I did around 5 gallons it shouldn't impact a tank like this, that fast non?
 
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Tyrant

Active Member
It doesn't look like it, but he's acting like he's going to die soon (breathing really quickly, swimming rather sporadically and staying away from the rest of them...in the first you can kinda see the growth I'm talking about on the left eye (from the camera's perspective, not the fish)...it just doesn't make any sense to me
 

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Tyrant

Active Member
Ok I just tested pH again and I am so confused. IT'S 6.4 NOW???? WHAT THE...I did two checks to be sure and i'm certain it's 6.4 how the ****...the only other thing I can imagine is these weird ferts used with java fern I got my have done something to them? There's like these yellow balls in the rock wool that java fern I got was included with...could that have dropped the pH so much? Also rock wool might have gotten loose in the water but from what I know it is inert so that shouldn't do anything...
 

DoubleDutch

Fishlore Legend
Terrible. Sorry I can't be of any help.

Only the neons being affected and the symptoms cou)d point towards columnaris but I don't understand why it took 3 months and then suddenly kills in days.
 
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Tyrant

Active Member
I understand, thank you for trying to help though. Just a quick question, but do these neons look healthy?
Also what seems to be the pH here, I'm testing my faucet source again and I'm trying to see if it could possibly swing it too much.
 

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Tyrant

Active Member
I'm so f... done with this. Literally lost 10 tetras in 3 days for god knows what reason right after just about finishing up my tank. What can do this it doesn't make any sense
 

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Tyrant

Active Member
The only other random thing I can think of is that the fertz that came with my java fern, which I added last Saturday, somehow gave them a disease or something idek and there's these shrimp-like organisms around the tank I don't really know what they are (Attached picture)
 

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Redshark1

Fishlore VIP
That's a Freshwater Shrimp (a crustacean known as an amphibod).

Neons get a strain of Columnaris which affects them but not usually other fish (possibly a few other tetra species). This grows on the gills (hence rapid breathing), body and fin surfaces and internally too especially in the muscle. However, as DoubleDutch indicated this usually devastates the fish soon after purchase not 3 months later.

Total Ammonia of 0-0.25 is OK. None of my tanks have ever been clear yellow and I believe they are all under 0.25.
 

DoubleDutch

Fishlore Legend
That's a Freshwater Shrimp (a crustacean known as an amphibod).

Neons get a strain of Columnaris which affects them but not usually other fish (possibly a few other tetra species). This grows on the gills (hence rapid breathing), body and fin surfaces and internally too especially in the muscle. However, as DoubleDutch indicated this usually devastates the fish soon after purchase not 3 months later.

Total Ammonia of 0-0.25 is OK. None of my tanks have ever been clear yellow and I believe they are all under 0.25.
Agree with RS. The top fish in the pic looks to have that strain (ragged fins and appearance).
 

Redshark1

Fishlore VIP
I can't remember seeing a protrusion on the eyes as described so don't know what this is without seeing it for myself.
 
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Tyrant

Active Member
I can't remember seeing a protrusion on the eyes as described so don't know what this is without seeing it for myself.

It's too late to do anything about it but I was just able to take a picture that kind of shows white specks that don't look like ick, but also don't look normal obviously...the eye thing might just be a side effect of that. But doesn't columnaris make infected fish turn white in large patches?
 

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Redshark1

Fishlore VIP
Thanks the first one is a better picture of what appears to be a Columnaris ravaged Neon Tetra hanging at the surface.

I still don't notice much wrong with the eye but you have the fish not me.

Regarding the white patches, the Columnaris is crawling all over the body and fins and will attack wherever the fish is unable to defend itself. Therefore the symptoms vary widely. This is what I believe through reading a number of scientific papers. I know DoubleDutch is very interested in this area too.

Sometimes the bacteria will be restricted to a small area and appear as a white spot. Other times it will move through the interior muscle and make the blue stripe disappear. Columnaris on the gills cannot be seen, except through the behaviour of the fish gasping for air.

Scientists used to studying Columnaris with microscopes say that it is not always possible to diagnose it with the naked eye in Neons unlike the saddleback disease symptoms seen in some cases.

In fact it is also very difficult to diagnose with a microscope because once a fish is dying various other microorganisms opportunistically attack the fish and it then becomes difficult to see what caused the problem in the first place.

Neon Tetra Disease is caused by another agent and is found comparatively rarely and is diagnosed by looking for the distinctive spores under the microscope.
 
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Tyrant

Active Member
Thanks the first one is a better picture of what appears to be a Columnaris ravaged Neon Tetra hanging at the surface.

I still don't notice much wrong with the eye but you have the fish not me.

Regarding the white patches, the Columnaris is crawling all over the body and fins and will attack wherever the fish is unable to defend itself. Therefore the symptoms vary widely. This is what I believe through reading a number of scientific papers. I know DoubleDutch is very interested in this area too.

Sometimes the bacteria will be restricted to a small area and appear as a white spot. Other times it will move through the interior muscle and make the blue stripe disappear. Columnaris on the gills cannot be seen, except through the behaviour of the fish gasping for air.

Scientists used to studying Columnaris with microscopes say that it is not always possible to diagnose it with the naked eye in Neons unlike the saddleback disease symptoms seen in some cases.

In fact it is also very difficult to diagnose with a microscope because once a fish is dying various other microorganisms opportunistically attack the fish and it then becomes difficult to see what caused the problem in the first place.

Neon Tetra Disease is caused by another agent and is found comparatively rarely and is diagnosed by looking for the distinctive spores under the microscope.

Well that makes sense, combined with just how **** fast it kills the fish it basically seems like that's the culprit. I'm down to one neon and at this point getting proper meds doesn't seem likely in time...it's a bummer too, I tried raising the water temp because I first thought it was ich but on further reading apparently that just makes this specific parasite spread faster... Well I did lie about having one tetra, there's another one in there and he's holding on...what do you recommend to do in terms of possible treatment? Seems like a fighter
 
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Tyrant

Active Member
Current readings...I think the ammonia is a bit higher right now for...obvious reasons. Is this water that I should be keeping neon's in? I was thinking about cardinals but I have NYC water right out of the tap so that might not be a great idea... (the readings for pH *general, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are attached, respectively)
 

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Redshark1

Fishlore VIP
All your test readings look good to me. I don't think you'll cure this with meds as the disease is med resistant, having originated in the fish farms that routinely use meds.

I don't medicate I just provide the best conditions possible for my Neons, the stronger fish will make it if you pay attention to aeration, flow rate (gentle but definite flow), temperature (low 70s F), lack of competition/stress from other fish and plenty of plant cover for security (they might not use it much but they like it to be there in case). These are a few examples of improvements you can make.

I also collect rainwater as my tap water is rather hard. I mix it and the water is softer.

Here's a pic of my setup for Neons:

19.03.10 Cube Steve Joul.jpg

19.02.07 Cube Aquarium Steve Joul (9).jpg
 
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Tyrant

Active Member
All your test readings look good to me. I don't think you'll cure this with meds as the disease is med resistant, having originated in the fish farms that routinely use meds.

I don't medicate I just provide the best conditions possible for my Neons, the stronger fish will make it if you pay attention to aeration, flow rate (gentle but definite flow), temperature (low 70s F), lack of competition/stress from other fish and plenty of plant cover for security (they might not use it much but they like it to be there in case). These are a few examples of improvements you can make.

I also collect rainwater as my tap water is rather hard. I mix it and the water is softer.

Well I lost my 2nd to last neon and my last one seems like he's doing fine, like the last time this happened to me 3 yrs ago I had a similar situation but I'm pretty sure that was from actual NTD (this was a 10 gal tank), and now I'm going to feel bad about leaving a lone tetra in the tank...

I was thinking, and yeah I guess I kinda got desensitized to these things over time, but if I were to get a school of cardinals (my lfs doesn't carry neons atm but have a bunch of cardinals for $2 each), do you think they could work in it? it's a 29 gal and I'll attach a picture of it...mostly just worried about the pH differences, even though my tank is established at around a pH of 6.7, the water from the tap seems to be high 7's. I do prefer their higher temperature preferences, especially since my room gets a lot warmer during the summer.

Also kinda thinking about adding a juvenile angelfish but I read that they don't exactly get along with small tetras, which makes sense...I guess it's mostly me looking for a centerpiece fish for a 29 gal, any recommendations? If the columnaris was in the tank already not too sure what I can do before getting new fish besides overhauling the whole system and I don't have the physical time for that/nor space anymore ugh.
 

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Tyrant

Active Member
Sorry to hear Tyrant.
Thing that puzzles me is that you had them for 3 months now and suddenly this happens. It rules out Ph-shock or even Columnaris to me (wouldn't expect them to die within days). What did you feed ?
Thanks the first one is a better picture of what appears to be a Columnaris ravaged Neon Tetra hanging at the surface.

I still don't notice much wrong with the eye but you have the fish not me.

Regarding the white patches, the Columnaris is crawling all over the body and fins and will attack wherever the fish is unable to defend itself. Therefore the symptoms vary widely. This is what I believe through reading a number of scientific papers. I know DoubleDutch is very interested in this area too.

Sometimes the bacteria will be restricted to a small area and appear as a white spot. Other times it will move through the interior muscle and make the blue stripe disappear. Columnaris on the gills cannot be seen, except through the behaviour of the fish gasping for air.

Scientists used to studying Columnaris with microscopes say that it is not always possible to diagnose it with the naked eye in Neons unlike the saddleback disease symptoms seen in some cases.

In fact it is also very difficult to diagnose with a microscope because once a fish is dying various other microorganisms opportunistically attack the fish and it then becomes difficult to see what caused the problem in the first place.

Neon Tetra Disease is caused by another agent and is found comparatively rarely and is diagnosed by looking for the distinctive spores under the microscope.

Do you think it would be wise to add more tetras about now? I still have one alive and I don't think he's showing any symptoms (could be an immune carrier I guess?), but would that be wise? Thinking of a mix of cardinals and neons to learn about how to take care of both
 

Redshark1

Fishlore VIP
I added more to bump up the numbers again when I didn't suffer any more deaths and the white marks on the fish weren't getting any bigger. Luckily I got healthy fish the second time.
 

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