Gourami, over population key to peacefulness?

I was watching this youtube video, where hundreds of bettas, mostly if not all female in a 55 gallon tank , with no noticeable aggressions. That led me to think back on other gourami in fish shops in Asia, always way over populated but also few noticeable aggressions. We are talking about 30-40 dwarf gourami in a 20 g tank or something like that. Those gourami, say dwarf, once moved from that overpopulated shop tank to our home, with just another or another couple of gourami? Fights, sometimes, fight to kill.

Could shoulder to shoulder overcrowd be the key to gourami peacefulness? When one was surrounded by so many potential enemies, one would think three times before starting a fight? Also with whom to fight as there are so many.

OK I have no hands on knowledge or experience, but had a tank with 3 blue gourami that was never ending aggressions, chasing and fighting til one was killed.

 

I was watching this youtube video, where hundreds of bettas, mostly if not all female in a 55 gallon tank , with no noticeable aggressions.

To be fair, that particular tank was at a fish show booth. Usually they are simply for display for short periods of time.

 

Would not recommend.

 

To be fair, that particular tank was at a fish show booth. Usually they are simply for display for short periods of time.

True! On the other hand, wouldn't that be the time to fight for terrorizes, and hierarchy?

 

I think when lots of male gourmami are together in a small tank at fish stores they don't establish a territory and stay in more of a schoal mentality.

 

I think when lots of male gourmami are together in a small tank at fish stores they don't establish a territory and stay in more of a schoal mentality.

As stated in another forum allmost all fish live a certain period (after being born) of their life in a school. So as newborn / juvenile they're used to living this way for some period. In an LFS often fish are sold that are at the end of this period and their natural behaviour to
make a territory / to mate / to get a territory takes over and even can be supressed by the amount of fish in an LFS-tank. DG's that arrive a bit bigger in an LFS will often not swim / school but get in a certain corner of the tank.

On the other hand all bettas over thr years are transported in seperate bags and even sold in tiny cups (which is a shame to me). Why if transporting them in huge quantities in the same bag would be an option? The most economic way ? Bettas are transported and kept over 100 years now !

I get tired/annoyed about vids in which so called "experts" tell us that has been impossible / a disaster over the years (all over the world) is possible. Several people / newbies will search the internet till the point they get green light something that isn't advisable at all.

Threads that start with "but people tell / but the internet says" are countless nowadays and arguments start allmost every day when more experienced people (excluding myself here) tell it isn't advisable at all.

Nothing on the internet is what is seems to be ("wildcaught" bettas in a pond with South American Angels ?????) , often marketing is causing "colored" advises, etc etc.....

BTW : nothing against this thread nor the OP (great you started a thread like this) but that's my opinion.

 

Unnatural conditions begat unnatural behaviors.

 

I'm surprised again and again how a video with lots of colourful fish can make people not listen. They even say in the video it is far from easy and there are lots of K.O. criteria against this.

Usual problems with such videos:
- The material you get to see is a momentary snapshot. It might not have been like this 10 min before filming or 10 min afterwards.
- Many tanks are setup only temporarily like this one for a show or other ones just for filming that video and getting taken down only a month or so later.
- If you know something about fish behaviour you will often see fish being stressed, but before you can realize they cut to a different angle.
- Very popular among fishtubers first show the tank, proudly with a lot of Wow! and then two weeks or a month later: "Yeah, fish didn't do so well, lost half of them, made me not want the tank anymore, took it down, tried again." On the one hand, ok, they show when something didn't work out. It gets depressing when you notice that this happens to more than 50% of that person's tanks and they don't tell you what actually went wrong.
And for sure, many HAVE TO bring something new regularly, because the usual viewer wants new stuff all the time or they get bored, lose interest and watch somebody else.

On the hobbyist side I see another thing:
In some countries it is kind of a sport to push limits. Sometimes rightly so, when the potential of a thing hasn't been fully explored. But often times I see people (especially here) try and do something many, many people tried before and failed doing so. It must be something cultural that this is often ignored and they say "They didn't try hard enough!" People that go that approach should be reminded again and again: The animals pay the ultimate price if it fails. And everyone that says they did it for the animals lies, everyone that cries about fish they technically sentenced to death themselves cries just crocodile tears.
People like that don't need to be shamed publicly, but to all those that react to this with sympathy and pity enable these people. Sometimes it is absolutely necessary to tell people they messed up, tell them what they did wrong and get them back on track with less high goals. If they can't see that, they better leave the hobby.

 

I don't see how overstocking wouldn't be stressful, even if you can't see any particular fish being picked on. How can a fish get a good nights sleep or even rest for a bit when there's always someone poking around within an inch or two?

Higher stocking levels require extra maintenance and leave a greater chance of having problems of some sort. Plus it adds stress to the fish. No thanks.

 

I recently read an article about maintaining paradise fish (definitely a quarrelsome gourami) under laboratory settings. They found that the ideal stocking density for their purposes was 10-12 adult fish per a 30 liter (just shy of 8 gallon...actually a partially filled 10 gallon) tank; less than that caused territorial aggression that stressed the fish out, and more than that stressed the fish out from sheer overcrowding. Even at this 'ideal' stocking density, though, they had major problems with water quality...the water quickly (within a few days of the weekly water change) lost its buffering capacity and crashed from a PH of 7.5 to a PH of 5.8 (they had to add crushed coral and limestone pebbles to the tank to offset the acidity added by the nitrogen cycle), and they were regularly (monthly or bimonthly) adding nitrifying bacteria cultures to maintain the filters (with that said, they never hit dangerous levels of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate). The article contains helpful information on keeping paradise fish, but I don't think you should keep them at such high densities (except temporarily in grow out tanks). Here is the article if you are curious;
Housing, Husbandry and Welfare of a “Classic” Fish Model, the Paradise Fish (Macropodus opercularis)

 

I was watching this youtube video, where hundreds of bettas, mostly if not all female in a 55 gallon tank , with no noticeable aggressions. That led me to think back on other gourami in fish shops in Asia, always way over populated but also few noticeable aggressions. We are talking about 30-40 dwarf gourami in a 20 g tank or something like that. Those gourami, say dwarf, once moved from that overpopulated shop tank to our home, with just another or another couple of gourami? Fights, sometimes, fight to kill.

Next time you are in a fish store have a good look in those overpopulated Dwarf Gourami tanks and tell me they are fine. Plenty have shredded fins, colour loss and there is usually one or two on the bottom. Diluted aggression is a factor however this isn't something that should be maintained long term especially with the very frail tank bred Dwarf Gourami.

Something to keep in mind is that most commonly kept Gourami are social fish and should be housed with others of the same species. Keeping them in adequately sized groups allowing them to express that natural "aggressive" behaviour. This is just part of normal social interactions.

Overcrowding isn't the answer. Keeping them in adequate sized social groups in adequately sized aquariums with plants and branches is.

 

I hear ya, dwarf gouramis in fish shops' overstocked tank couldn't be having a good time as most were quite motionless, almost like they were standing their ground and surviving with minimum movements. That said, my three star gourami, those that were relentlessly chased to death by another three star might trade place with them.

Joshaeus's post about that research paper, 10 paradise in 8 gallon, was a good read. There are just so much we still don't fully understand about our gourami.

I recently read an article about maintaining paradise fish (definitely a quarrelsome gourami) under laboratory settings. They found that the ideal stocking density for their purposes was 10-12 adult fish per a 30 liter (just shy of 8 gallon...actually a partially filled 10 gallon) tank; less than that caused territorial aggression that stressed the fish out, and more than that stressed the fish out from sheer overcrowding. Even at this 'ideal' stocking density, though, they had major problems with water quality...the water quickly (within a few days of the weekly water change) lost its buffering capacity and crashed from a PH of 7.5 to a PH of 5.8 (they had to add crushed coral and limestone pebbles to the tank to offset the acidity added by the nitrogen cycle), and they were regularly (monthly or bimonthly) adding nitrifying bacteria cultures to maintain the filters (with that said, they never hit dangerous levels of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate). The article contains helpful information on keeping paradise fish, but I don't think you should keep them at such high densities (except temporarily in grow out tanks). Here is the article if you are curious;
Housing, Husbandry and Welfare of a “Classic” Fish Model, the Paradise Fish (Macropodus opercularis)

10-12 paradises in 30 liter tank would be difficult to upkeep, but it's still a fascinating research. Their behaviors changed with population density? Come to think of it, 10-12 in 30 litre would be not unlike those poor gourami in fish shops.

 

10-12 in 30 litre would be not unlike those poor gourami in fish shops.

pretty spot on.

 

I recently read an article about maintaining paradise fish (definitely a quarrelsome gourami) under laboratory settings. They found that the ideal stocking density for their purposes was 10-12 adult fish per a 30 liter (just shy of 8 gallon...actually a partially filled 10 gallon) tank; less than that caused territorial aggression that stressed the fish out, and more than that stressed the fish out from sheer overcrowding. Even at this 'ideal' stocking density, though, they had major problems with water quality...the water quickly (within a few days of the weekly water change) lost its buffering capacity and crashed from a PH of 7.5 to a PH of 5.8 (they had to add crushed coral and limestone pebbles to the tank to offset the acidity added by the nitrogen cycle), and they were regularly (monthly or bimonthly) adding nitrifying bacteria cultures to maintain the filters (with that said, they never hit dangerous levels of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate). The article contains helpful information on keeping paradise fish, but I don't think you should keep them at such high densities (except temporarily in grow out tanks). Here is the article if you are curious;
Housing, Husbandry and Welfare of a “Classic” Fish Model, the Paradise Fish (Macropodus opercularis)

Interesting read. Thanks for sharing Joshaeus. But indeed "ideal for their purposes".

 

Local fish shops' overcrowd gourami tanks, the paradise fish research paper, and that hundred female betta sorority tank all sort of indicate population density has an effect on aggression, higher the density, lower aggression? Sounded like a rock and hard place? One trades less aggression for high maintenance. Sigh.

 

Local fish shops' overcrowd gourami tank, the paradise fish research paper, and that hundred female sorority all sort of indicate population dense has an effect on aggression, higher the density, lower aggression. Sounded like a rock and hard place? One trades less aggression for high maintenance. Sigh.

I think that is a much too simplified statement to make. Overcrowding in shops is usually down to cost effectivity, it makes little sense to not keep them in overcrowded tanks when turn over for popular fish like Gourami is high. And once again, this is usually not a pretty sight in stores. Though I'm referring to Dwarf Gourami specifically here.

That said, my three star gourami, those that were relentlessly chased to death by another three star might trade place with them.

For me 3 isn't enough to establish a healthy social hierarchy and I'm not sure how big the aquarium was that you kept them in but they are a larger species and need space. Also if there was multiple males in such a small group it really wouldn't be surprising.
My group of 9 was kept successfully in a 63 gallon(4ft) aquarium including 3 males, until I moved country. While they weren't kept for the longest period of time, they were mature fish the largest male building several bubble nests within the community.

 

I think that is a much too simplified statement to make. Overcrowding in shops is usually down to cost effectivity, it makes little sense to not keep them in overcrowded tanks when turn over for popular fish like Gourami is high. And once again, this is usually not a pretty sight in stores. Though I'm referring to Dwarf Gourami specifically here.

For me 3 isn't enough to establish a healthy social hierarchy and I'm not sure how big the aquarium was that you kept them in but they are a larger species and need space. Also if there was multiple males in such a small group it really wouldn't be surprising.
My group of 9 was kept successfully in a 63 gallon(4ft) aquarium including 3 males, until I moved country. While they weren't kept for the longest period of time, they were mature fish the largest male building several bubble nests within the community.

May be a 3' tank? Lol it was well over fifty years ago. I was very young and that tank seems to be rather large, but the relentless gourami chase was non stop.

 

Local fish shops' overcrowd gourami tanks, the paradise fish research paper, and that hundred female betta sorority tank all sort of indicate population density has an effect on aggression, higher the density, lower aggression? Sounded like a rock and hard place? One trades less aggression for high maintenance. Sigh.

In a certain stage of their life. Breeding took place seperated. Anxious to know what had happened if fish were kept as such in the breedingperiod. I think it would be a battlezone with multiple casualties.

This research had as purpose to find other fish than zebra danios to do certain research on them. I seriously doubt such results can and should be copy/pasted to out communitytanks.

Think we should prevent to interpretate certain scientific research (seen this more often lately) as a guideline to keep fish in our hobby.

 

Next time you are in a fish store have a good look in those overpopulated Dwarf Gourami tanks and tell me they are fine. Plenty have shredded fins, colour loss and there is usually one or two on the bottom. Diluted aggression is a factor however this isn't something that should be maintained long term especially with the very frail tank bred Dwarf Gourami.

Something to keep in mind is that most commonly kept Gourami are social fish and should be housed with others of the same species. Keeping them in adequately sized groups allowing them to express that natural "aggressive" behaviour. This is just part of normal social interactions.

Overcrowding isn't the answer. Keeping them in adequate sized social groups in adequately sized aquariums with plants and branches is.

I have literally never seen a Dwarf Gourami tank in a fish store that looked good. It's the saddest sight. Typically several of them have tattered fins and pale color, roughly half of them are on death's door and trying to hide, one or two are dead, and the rest look.... okay. I'm so scared to even purchase anything sharing a tank with the Dwarf Gouramis.

 

Tanks that are overstocked to spread out the aggression have fish that live in a constant state of stress. They may not get beaten to death, but the stress is not good for them.