Goldfish Ich

Discussion in 'Goldfish' started by Elvishswimmer, Dec 4, 2009.

  1. ElvishswimmerValued MemberMember


    I have a few problems.

    I just got my goldfish today. They were shipped here! Anyways, my large black moor seems to have Ich. It is a white spot on his back fin, and seems to be a little fuzzy.

    The tank has been treated with TSS, and so I can't do any water changes for 1-2 weeks to make sure my cycle doesn't die.

    Do I raise the temperature, or will that hurt them being goldfish? The temperature right now is 74F.

    Should I go and try to purchase some Ich treatment tomorrow? My other goldfish are white (2 of them), so I won't be able to tell if they get it too.

    Will the treatment hurt my TSS cycle??

    Also this same fish keeps going to the surface and eating the air. The other two seem perfectly fine (other than the one has swim bladder problems, but I'm treating that already too) Is this a problem?

  2. gremlinWell Known MemberMember

    Is it possible to separate the black moor from the two white ones? Although, it would actually be better to treat all three since they are all exposed to the ich. Ich Attack works great for goldfish. I'm not sure what it may or may not do to your cycle. Keeping the temp at a steady 83 degrees for two weeks can be hard on goldies since they do much better at lower temperatures with changes from day to night. If you do decide to raise the temperature, make sure to increase the air stones in your tank to compensate for the lower oxygen content of the warmer water. It may actually be worth it to treat with Ich Attack, then (if needed) redose with TSS to restart your cycle. Just my opinion, but that is what I would do.

  3. AquaristFishlore LegendMember

    Hello Elvish. So sorry to hear that your new fish is ailing. If indeed the fish does have ICH it will soon look like it's been sprinkled with salt. The entire tank will have to be treated so there is no need for quarantine.

    Does the Black Moor have ICH and Swim bladder issues or does another fish have the Swim bladder issues? Either way it's never a good sign. How are you treating it?

    My first priority would be to treat and cure the ICH. Chances are any medications or chemicals you may use will void the Tetra Safe Start (TSS) and it's capabilities.

    Option 1: Risk losing the TSS, treat with ICH Attack as Gremlin advised. (I've never used this product myself but I know Gremlin has and with success) Chances are you'll have to do daily water changes to prevent ammonia poisoning since your tank isn't cycled.

    Option 2: Raise the temperature to 83 or 84 degrees and leave it there for two weeks. Increasing the temperature will probably help your tank to cycle faster. It would be a good idea to have an air supply/pump/stone as warmer water requires more oxygen. However, the warmer waters may stress the Goldies for that long of a period. It's really hard to say. Too, it's not a good idea to do water changes while using TSS either and when treating for ICH the substrate should really be vacuumed during this time at least twice a week.

    So, I think I would do as Gremlin advised under these circumstances. I just can't see an easy way out of this one. :(

    Elvish, how long has it been since you added the TSS?
    I'm sure you'll get more responses so hang in there.

  4. ElvishswimmerValued MemberMember

    Thanks for the responses, I'll give a run down of each fish, I'm sorry I have no camera right now to take pictures of them.

    Black Moor:
    One white spot on dorsal fin, one white spot on caudal fin

    Ranchu: Swim Bladder Problems. Floating when he stops moving, but still very active.

    Pearlscale: Nothing wrong and very friendly.

    How I am treating the Ranchu is I have been feeding all of them peas. They have been eating it happily, but the Ranchu is having trouble competing for the pea. I tried taking him out and putting him in a bowl, but he was so bothered from the change he wouldn't even look at any food, so I just put him back and he went immediately back to scavenging.

    I got the Fish yesterday, and added the TSS yesterday.
    Buying more TSS isn't really an option, as it cost $40 and took 10 days to come, because you can't buy it here. Though if I do have an option called Superbac, which from reading this forum has been met with some successful results as well. Its like TSS with a one-time application as well, not a once a week deal.

    I'm going to the store today, so this is on my shopping list:

    Ich Medication
    Air Stone
    Breeder Basket (to separate Ranchu so he can actually get some food)
    Better Heater

    This way I will have all the materials to try both options. And then decide what I should do when I get back. Such a tough situation :\

    Edit: I just messaged the breeder about the fish. This is his first time trying to ship to Canada, and so he was happy to hear that they have arrived.

    He mentioned another customer had a floating Telescope too, but that they were all in perfect condition when they left his place. He thinks maybe the rough handling with the holiday rush at FedEx.
    He said though that if Ranchu doesn't pull through though that he will give me a full refund for it.
    I didn't mention the ICH, though I might later. Realistically, the Ich could happen at any time when a fish is stressed though, so I didn't think to say anything.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2009
  5. gremlinWell Known MemberMember

    The breeder basket may work, although maybe just temporarily dividing the tank with some plastic canvas might be cheaper. You can stick it in the tank at feeding time, then remove it the rest of the time. That way you aren't having to catch the Ranchu every time.

    What type of food are you feeding? Flakes? Floating Pellets? Sinking Pellets? I prefer the floating pellets as they float just under the surface of the water so the goldies have less of a chance of gulping air (which contributes to swim bladder) but you can still easily remove (and dry out to reuse) any leftover pellets. In my opinion, the flakes allow the goldies to gulp too much air when they feed.

    When you get the Ich medication, try to get Ich Attack. There are others out there, but the Ich Attack works the best of the ones that I have tried. I have helped friends of mine rescue tons of goldfish. I have several friends that are school teachers. They always seem to end up with the "extra" goldfish that are bought for carnival prizes, or science class tanks, or whatever. Without fail, every one of these fish have had Ich when I first see them. Treated with Ich Attack, we have only lost a few of them over the years, and those ones were usually too far gone already to save.

    Positive note - since your goldies seem to be basically healthy, they should pull through their bout of Ich with no problems. Catching it early and treating it is the best way to pull them through.

    Looking forward to seeing pics of you new babies! Any names picked yet?
  6. ElvishswimmerValued MemberMember

    I tried looking for Ich Attack, but it wasn't there. I took the one that the fish store person recommended. its called Ick Ease.

    I fed Ranchu with the breeder basket and he ate all his pea that I gave him.

    I'm feeding them a mix of veggies, homemade gel food, and Hikari Lionhead Sinking pellets. So all sinks and no air gulping. He came floating in the bag, so it wasn't anything I did to cause the swim bladder.

    I also bought an aerator and dropped the water level down a bit so the HOB filter causes more disturbance, and am slowly raising the temperature. I'm thinking 1-2 degrees per day will be ok right?

    I'm going to start treating now, and I hope it will all work out ok!

    Should I do water changes when treating with Ich medication? My nitrites are still high (~0.4ppm), because the TSS has only been in for 24 hours.

    And right now, the Ranchu is called Meeko, and the Pearlscale is called Leon. The moor doesn't have a name yet.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2009
  7. MeenuFishlore VIPMember

    Hi, could you update your aquarium info please? I'm so sorry about the ich!!
  8. gremlinWell Known MemberMember

    I'm not familiar with Ich Ease, but hopefully it should do the job. As for water changes, read what it says on the Ich Ease. Usually you do have to do partial water changes when you medicate. You may not need to raise the temp with the medication - does it say to on the bottle/container? The extra air is good and should help the goldies handle the round of medication and the higher temperatures. There shouldn't be any problem with raising the temp a couple of degrees a day. You could probably even raise it a couple of degrees in the morning then another couple of degrees in the evening. Considering my pond goes from 48 degrees first thing in the morning up to the high 60's to low 70's in the middle of the afternoon, then back down to upper 40's the next night with no problems for my fishies.

    I'm glad Meeko is getting his pea now. That should help some with the swim bladder issues. The fancy goldies are more likely to get swim issues than the normal goldies. The rest of the diet sounds great. Sinking foods will help to prevent the goldies from gulping any air when they eat. I was just trying to eliminate anything that might add to the swim bladder issues. Sounds like you are doing everything here just fine.

    Meeko and Leon - cute names. Can't wait to hear what you name the Black Moor. Hmm, Moor - maybe something Scottish? McTavish. Mac for short...
  9. ShawnieFishlore LegendMember

    awww after all that time and finally finding tss, now you got this!!!! im sorry !!! :(

    but im with ken..treat the ich if you think its really ich...I know its a waste of your money and tss, but the goldies wont handle the cycle process and ich IMO...and tss only goes 10 days max and if the tank isnt cycled then, you do water changes...dont let it go over 10 days ever.....

    but make sure its ich and not just injuries from being shipped....they arent treated very well when shipped so it could be something else...ich isnt fuzzy and its more like grains of salt.....

    good luck!!!!!!
  10. ElvishswimmerValued MemberMember

    I based my Ich diagnosis off of what Redlessi said a few posts down. He now has a few spots, so I think it might be ich, and not an injury.

    I'll update my aquarium info right away! Just to let you know that Ammonia is at 0 and Nitrites are at <0.5ppm

    From reading, and from what the breeder said, the Swim bladder problems may be from an injury in transit, and if that is the case, Meeko may not be curable. Just the fact that he was fasted for a few days before transport, and then didn't eat for a day while in transport, and that he left fine, and came here with the problem makes me think it is an injury.
    But the fact that he is happy and still eager to swim around with the other fish and scavenge for food is a good thing, and I don't think it would be a reason to euthanize him or anything. If he has problems swimming the rest of his life but is still happy that's ok. I'll just hope that he recovers!

    The bottle says to put 10 drops per gallon every other day for no more than 4 treatments. And to do a partial waterchange before and after every treatment. Does that mean immediatley after putting the drops in, or every day, or after the 4 treatments?? It is really vague. What do you guys recommend?
    The fish store guy said it is safe for bacteria, and even though the TSS was just added, my ammonia bacteria have been around for a good 2 weeks already, so I think I will probably be ammonia safe, I just have to watch for nitrites.
    He also said that the medication kills only the free swimming form of Ich and by increasing the temperature, the lifecycle of the Ich will progress faster, making the medication more efficient.
    He also said to treat it for 2 weeks because that is how long the cycle is, but the bottle only says 4-ever-other-day treatments (aka 8 days).
    Can anyone with experience in Ich back up or refute LFS man? He seemed to know his stuff, but you can never really tell.

    I have a camera now, so I'll try to get my pics uploaded and see if the diagnosis is easier
  11. ElvishswimmerValued MemberMember

    Yay Pictures!

    I only have them of the moor right now, because he is the one with immediate illness. I have others, but I don't have time to upload them right now

    I've circled the problem areas, but you can see a white spot on his caudal fin, and there also seems to be a white protrusion from the anal vent (if that is the right word for it!) There is one very similar to the caudal fin spot on his dorsal fin, hard to see, but exactly the same.

    Does it look like Ich to you guys? Should I do a water change and stop treatment?

  12. Tony G.Fishlore VIPMember


    sorry about your situation. That doesnt really look like ich to me... :;dk

    Above i posted a picture of what it looks like. Does it resemble it? i cant really tell on the pics...
  13. AquaristFishlore LegendMember

    Hello Elvish. Here is a link (WARNING: Graphic photos of fish disease) that may help you to diagnose the problem:  The first several photos are of ICH.
  14. redlessiWell Known MemberMember

    My spot looked like the pic Tony posted............Sorry to hear of the problems you are having with your new fish. Hope everything works out.
  15. ElvishswimmerValued MemberMember

    Dang. So I might have been treating for the wrong thing.
    I'll do a partial waterchange right away.

    Is there anything you guys think it might be? Would injuries cause raised white bumps?? They aren't so much fluffly outwards, but more they don't have a defined edge to them, it just kind of peters out. But all the bumps are raised in the centre. Doesn't look like anything I noticed in those pictures Ken.

    Again, he seems to have no behavioural signs of illness. He swims well, and loves his food. But the fact that he does have something there, makes me want to try and get rid of it as soon as I can, instead of just leaving him be.

    They just ate, and he had a long white poop. Everyone else has been having short poops the same colour as the food they've been eating. And that raised white area by his anus is really worrying me.

    I'm so glad I have you guys! Cause really I would have no clue what to do right now! I have a 10G tank that I could use to quarantine if needed.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2009
  16. Red1313Fishlore VIPMember

    Hmmm... Stress suppresses immune systems (which is a good reason why all new fish should be QT'd regardless of source). It could just be that once you're guys settle in their immune systems will perk back up again. I'd suggest adding some garlic guard to their tank. Also it's possible that stress may have aggravated a previously sub-clinical condition. Would parasites be a possibility? That's one of the first things that comes to my mind...
  17. ElvishswimmerValued MemberMember

    I purchased my fish directly from the breeder.
    I've heard really good things about this breeder. He says that his fish are quarantined for 2 days before shipping, to make sure they have a clean bill of health. He wouldn't ship fish that were ill or injured in any way.
    All these fish got shipped together and put into my new tank, with no new fish planned to add.
    But you are right, the travel from Hawaii to Canada I could imagine being very stressful, which might be how he got this illness. I'm starting to lean towards bacterial infection, but I'm not sure.
    I think I will get the Q tank set up, and put him on his own tonight. Make sure his water is pristine and all until all these symptoms are gone. I don't want my other fish to catch what he has.
  18. Red1313Fishlore VIPMember

    The two day QT is probably more for observation (to make sure they look healthy) then a true QT.
    However being shipped from Hawaii to Canada would definitely be stressful.

    Good Luck.
  19. ElvishswimmerValued MemberMember

    I just thought I would update.

    I got some great advice from a goldfish forum, and seperated the black moor into the hospital tank, and treated her with a dab of iodine for all of her spots. And I'm pleased to say that all the spots have cleared up today, and the tear in her pelvic fin has healed too!

    I'm going to keep her in the hospital tank for another week or so to just make sure that there are no reoccurances to her spots, but otherwise she looks like a healthy goldfish again.

    And after talking with the Goldfish forum, and looking up pictures, the white bulge at the anus looks like it might just be a mature female. It looks a lot like the pictures on this site:

    I've decided to name her Vesper, like the Bond girl XD
  20. bolivianbabyFishlore LegendMember

    Wow, that's some pretty cool information!

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