Getting Cycle Going, Fish Loss, White Spot, Ammonia?

Its hard to know where to start, I've read a number of sources and I know I've made a number of mistakes, I don't mind you telling me so.

Setup: 10 gallon Aqeon kit with a quiet flow 10. Had it cycling for a week before fish. Added API Quickstart. Added 4 male Guppys and 1 female, and a african dwarf frog.

What ive done or added: I've done water changes every week and a half, first one 30%, next 25%. 1 'all in one' filter change. I add a little Quickstart with every water change or filter change. We went on vacation and a family member most definitely over fed our fish for just over a week plus a bit of green algae developed. Did a water change, light down to 7 hours.

4 days ago I noticed the female guppy had long stringy poop.
3 days ago I noticed the ADF had a small white/grey spot on its back.
yesterday added Imagitarium Parasite remedy, new filter with carbon cut out
today female guppy lost, males still swimming normally.

My numbers yesterday
pH 7.6
Ammonia 8ppm (this can't be right? My other fish all seem OK)
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 0ppm

Questions: It there any way to recover this, I now have all male guppys, should I add a female?
Are my fish at risk of what the female had? I don't have a QT. Is the grey spot on the ADF a parasite or ammonia burn? Fish can't survive with 8ppm Ammonia right? Did my cycle even start, is quickstart helping?

 

Cycle is nowhere near the start or end. The female died from stress and/or bulling because you CANNOT keep one female with 4 males, its either 3 females to 1 male or all males. ADF has ammonia burns and will not be able to properly live in the tank because its cycling and you have male guppies so you NEED to re-home it or get a 5 gallon tank for just the ADF. what test kit do you use? do you use water conditioner or prime? NEVER EVER EVER change your filter media especially when trying to cycle your tank because in order to have a cycled tank you need BB which lives in the filter and filter media mostly. When cycling a tank with or without fish you need to do daily %30 water changes. you also need more coverage (i.e plants and hiding places) if your going to have an all male tank.

 

Test kit is API. How do I do filter changes with this all in one filter? Can't never change it right?

Did I read that right, ADF can't live with male guppy's? What could it live with, females, or no guppy's?

My latest filter change was because of the parasite remedy, it states cannot use with carbon filter. The long white stringy poop was stress then, not a parasite?

 

Test kit is API. How do I do filter changes with this all in one filter? Can't never change it right?

Did I read that right, ADF can't live with male guppy's? What could it live with, females, or no guppy's?

the main problem is ADF are sensitive so its harder for it to live in an un-cycled tank, They can live with guppies but because you have all males its a little tricky so what you need to do is 1.get the tank cycled and established and 2. add more coverage. you should never change the filter/filter cartridge really unless its broken or not working properly, however after you get you tank cycled you will want to scrub the cartridge (not to much) in the fish tank water, and change the whole filter cartridge every year but leave the old one sitting in the tank for three days to give the new cartridge time to build up BB.

My latest filter change was because of the parasite remedy, it states cannot use with carbon filter. The long white stringy poop was stress then, not a parasite?

It could have been a parasite but I doubt it. was she eating and acting normal?

 

If the ammonia truly is up to 8 you need to do several back to back water changes to get it out of there. You also need to get a bottle of Prime water conditioner. It not only removes the chlorine in tap water but also binds low amounts of ammonia so it will protect your little boys during this fish in cycle.

Let the test be your guide as to when to do a water change after you get the ammonia down. When you run the ammonia test as long as it is below one just add a full tank dose of prime to bind it. It will still show up in the test after adding prime but it will be bound up and no longer harmful to the fish. If the ammonia goes to one or above do a water change to get it back below one and them add Prime to bind up what is left.

Some ammonia has to be there for the tank to cycle but you need to keep it as low as possible.

Please do not put another female guppy in this tank. I feel sure the one you had was stressed to death from all the attention she got from 4 males.

I don't know anything about frogs but I trust the information you have already got about yours.

Leave your filter media alone. Rinse it in some tank water removed during a water change but do not replace it. That is where the bacteria you are trying to grow is living.

 

So right now I'm doing the butchered filter for the parasite addition so either way its getting yet another new filter.

Will do some more water changes and get the prime. I have been conditioning water before it goes in with the aqueon stuff.

Male guppy's haven't been bothering the frog at all, never seen them even close. Will get some more cover for my males. Don't have a new tank for frog, is there anything I can do?

 

So right now I'm doing the butchered filter for the parasite addition so either way its getting yet another new filter.

Will do some more water changes and get the prime. I have been conditioning water before it goes in with the aqueon stuff.

Male guppy's haven't been bothering the frog at all, never seen them even close. Will get some more cover for my males. Don't have a new tank for frog, is there anything I can do?

Try and keep ammonia and nitrite as low as possible and keep a close on on the ADF

 

So right now I'm doing the butchered filter for the parasite addition so either way its getting yet another new filter.

Will do some more water changes and get the prime. I have been conditioning water before it goes in with the aqueon stuff.

Male guppy's haven't been bothering the frog at all, never seen them even close. Will get some more cover for my males. Don't have a new tank for frog, is there anything I can do?

When you feel it is time to replace the filter cartridge just cut the fiber off the cartridge and put that fiber along with a new cartridge in the filter housing. This way you are not throwing away all your work (growing bacteria) each time you change the cartridge and by doing it this way the old cartridge fiber will help seed the new cartridge with bacteria.

I could be wrong but I think the main concern about the frog is the fact that an uncycled tank is very hard on them. I feel sure your frog will be alright with guppies once the tank is cycled. They are even more sensitive to ammonia burns than fish are. If you truly do not have any other choice just be sure to use prime and do water changes as often as necessary to keep the ammonia level down as low as possible.

 

Ok thanks for the help. I hope with some water changes and hoping for a more mature tank, the ADF may make it. I was only able to get API Stresscoat+, they didnt have any Prime left so we will see if that helps. I had the Aqueon water conditioner anyway so I'm not sure the stress coat will be adding anything to the mix. I have seen conflicting answers that it does and does not convert ammonia so I'm not sure what it does beyond neutralizing chlorine and chloramine which I was already doing anyway.

 

You need to do daily water changes and keep that ammonia as low as possible, it’s killing all your fish.

Don’t feed them too much, in fact, don’t give them anything the next 2/3 days.

You need to find seachem prime, or something else at the pet store that turns your ammonia in a non harmful version of it.

Your tests will still indicate ammonia but it won’t be deadly to your fish anymore.

Do a 50% water change , then 20% every day after and test every day until your levels are healthy.

Get tetra safe start if you can and add that if you can.

 

You need to do daily water changes and keep that ammonia as low as possible, it’s killing all your fish.

Don’t feed them too much, in fact, don’t give them anything the next 2/3 days.

You need to find seachem prime, or something else at the pet store that turns your ammonia in a non harmful version of it.

Your tests will still indicate ammonia but it won’t be deadly to your fish anymore.

Do a 50% water change , then 20% every day after and test every day until your levels are healthy.

Get tetra safe start if you can and add that if you can.

Ok will do. I presume the safe start is the same as the API quick start ive been using? Ive been using that since the beginning plus with every water change. Everything tells me ammonia of 8 should have my fish dead already, I don't understand that reading, maybe the parasite stuff was throwing it off, will do another one tonight.

 

What presh said is not what you need to do, by not giving them food they can't produce much ammonia which means the tank will take LONGER to cycle, and by not feeding them you are stressing them out even more. and no presh that's not at all what killed the female, the female died from stress and bulying by the males, they do it all the time when numbers aren't correct. Silum what you need to do is find some prime or AMMO lock by API like this one API Ammo-Lock Freshwater & Saltwater Aquarium Ammonia Detoxifier if you get prime use it every time you do a water change which should be daily %30 changes. If you use the AMMO lock then use it when ammonia gets about 5ppm and then normal water conditioner and the stress coat you have. Quick start helps the cycle go faster while Safe start makes the tank livable for fish. IMO you should do this: feed them a little extra (but not to much) to help BB get started faster, add quick start twice a week, do daily %30 water changes with either prime or AMMO lock and normal water conditioner, add the stress coat 3 times a week, your fish could have acclimated to the ammonia since guppies are hardy fish, but the ADF got ammonia burns from the 8ppm.

 

So many additives yikes. Ok, I will feed them. I have a plant now too, should I add that? Then I feel like I open up a can of worms with ammo lock and plants...

 

So many additives yikes. Ok, I will feed them. I have a plant now too, should I add that? Then I feel like I open up a can of worms with ammo lock and plants...

The plants can only help so by all means go ahead and put them in there if you have them but keep an eye on them and if they start melting (dying) pull them out because they will add to the ammonia level.

Folks have reported odd ammonia readings while using ammo-lock so for that reason alone I would not recommend using it.

 

So you were told 50% WC, followed by 30% daily.

Several other recommendations.

My suggestion is to test for ammonia, then do your water change based on that information.

If ammonia is at 8ppm, I would do a 80-90% water change. If it’s at 2ppm, I would do a 50%.

Goal is to get ammonia to, or lower than 1ppm.

This will save your fish.

But test your tap water for ammonia too. If you have .5ppm ammonia in your tap water, the math will change.

Good luck.

 

Ok will do. I presume the safe start is the same as the API quick start ive been using? Ive been using that since the beginning plus with every water change. Everything tells me ammonia of 8 should have my fish dead already, I don't understand that reading, maybe the parasite stuff was throwing it off, will do another one tonight.

The fish food, and fish poop cause amonia. The tetra safe start plus kinda makes the tank water safe for your fish while the tank cycles. By frequent water changes, you are keeping the ammonia at a low level. The filter media should never be changed. Just the filter once a month. But wait for tank to cycle. Once the nitrogen cycle starts. The ammonia will change to nitrites. Both ammonia and nitrites are bad for fish. Then your filter media will change the nitrites to nitrates. Which at low levels are safe for fish. Ideally you want 0 amonia,0 nitrites, and low nitrates. That’s a cycled tank. Look up how the nitrogen cycle works. Remember that frequent water changes will keep ammonia low. As well as keep your water from getting the other fish sick. Use prime to get the chlorine out of tap water. Before adding tap water to tank. Best of luck to you.

 

What presh said is not what you need to do, by not giving them food they can't produce much ammonia which means the tank will take LONGER to cycle, and by not feeding them you are stressing them out even more. and no presh that's not at all what killed the female, the female died from stress and bulying by the males, they do it all the time when numbers aren't correct. Silum what you need to do is find some prime or AMMO lock by API like this one API Ammo-Lock Freshwater & Saltwater Aquarium Ammonia Detoxifier if you get prime use it every time you do a water change which should be daily %30 changes. If you use the AMMO lock then use it when ammonia gets about 5ppm and then normal water conditioner and the stress coat you have. Quick start helps the cycle go faster while Safe start makes the tank livable for fish. IMO you should do this: feed them a little extra (but not to much) to help BB get started faster, add quick start twice a week, do daily %30 water changes with either prime or AMMO lock and normal water conditioner, add the stress coat 3 times a week, your fish could have acclimated to the ammonia since guppies are hardy fish, but the ADF got ammonia burns from the 8ppm.

You do realize there is 8!!!!! ppm of ammonia in the water at the moment right? I think he/she has quite enough ammonia for the next while lol. You need to cut the feeding down because more food in an uncycled tank and fish that eat a lot creates more ammonia yes true, that’s not good in this case. It’s killing the fish. Get the ammonia down first. Stop feeding for a few days, anything can set off more ammonia spikes at the moment. Which is deadly at these amounts and there is nothing in your tank to turn in into something less harmful.

Cut down on feeding, do water changes according to the reading every day, get tetra safe start plus, get seachem prime. Make sure you do seachem first, take at least 10/15 minutes before putting in the tetra safe start. You can worry about bullying later, right now they are dying from being poisoned.

Oh and also, don’t ever change the filter out the same day you’re cleaning the tank. Clean tank first, wait three days, leaving the old filter in, then replace the filter and leave a bit of old filter in there for the next couple of days. That way you won’t start another minI cycle because you took away all the good bacteria in your old filter.

 

Ammonia was 8, did a 50% water change, down to, wouldn't you know it, 4. Can I do 90% changes!? My tap water is 0.5. Should I keep doing large water changes? I need to leave 24hrs between these correct? 90% seems like it would be very stressful but then, they are living in ammonia.

I know the nitrogen cycle, I don't know how to keep fish and use the multitude of products to keep the cycle in check.

I'll feed the fish, just less. Ammo lock later today, we will see.

 

Ammonia was 8, did a 50% water change, down to, wouldn't you know it, 4. Can I do 90% changes!? My tap water is 0.5. Should I keep doing large water changes? I need to leave 24hrs between these correct? 90% seems like it would be very stressful but then, they are living in ammonia.

You can do back to back 50% water changes. I personally wouldn't do a 90% water change but I think doing smaller water changes more often is better than one big one.

I know the nitrogen cycle, I don't know how to keep fish and use the multitude of products to keep the cycle in check.

I'll feed the fish, just less. Ammo lock later today, we will see.

You do not need a multitude of products. You need one product and that one product is prime. Water changes to keep the ammonia levels low (less than 1.0) and prime to bind/neutralize what is left is ALL you have to do.

I think the majority of the folks here on this thread are telling you the same thing. We can only advise. Only you can read what we are saying and then it is your choice as to what to actually do. Most of us have been where you are right now and are trying to tell you the easiest and yes, the best way to get this tank on track.

If you don't want to do this and go ahead and buy and use ammo-lock DON'T be surprised to start seeing high levels of ammonia 'specially if you don't keep up with the much needed water changes. If I understand correctly while using ammo-lock the ammonia is just converted to the less harmful ammonium but it is still there and will continue to rise. But then no matter what product you use the ammonia will continue to rise if you don't keep up with the water changes.

If you do decide to try again with the bottled bacteria and go with Tetra Safe Start Plus you just have to get the ammonia as low as possible with water changes before adding the TSS+ and then do nothing for 14 days other than lightly feeding you fish.

 

I'll have to find somewhere that has Prime in stock or get it online then. Ammo lock was suggested previously, don't have it yet, don't need to get it. Lets see where frequent changes and prime gets me.

The tss vs quickstart thing I can't confirm what was said in this thread, both seem to have the same nitrifying bacteria. Didn't mean to suggest there isn't one product, only that it is dizzying the number of suggested products, some of which appear to do the same thing? Even this forum gives conflicting advice when I search, for example the stresscoat+ was listed as a good alternative to prime when I was in the store, the plus part being the ammonia, I see that was probably incorrect. I would like to stop buying chemical additions lol.

 

I'll have to find somewhere that has Prime in stock or get it online then. Ammo lock was suggested previously, don't have it yet, don't need to get it. Lets see where frequent changes and prime gets me.

The tss vs quickstart thing I can't confirm what was said in this thread, both seem to have the same nitrifying bacteria. Didn't mean to suggest there isn't one product, only that it is dizzying the number of suggested products, some of which appear to do the same thing? Even this forum gives conflicting advice when I search, for example the stresscoat+ was listed as a good alternative to prime when I was in the store, the plus part being the ammonia, I see that was probably incorrect. I would like to stop buying chemical additions lol.

I do understand how confusing it can all be since there are so many products on the market. A lot of them claim to do a lot of things but in my humble opinion the majority of the products are useless and the only thing they do is make huge profits for the ones that put it out there for us to buy.

At this point in your fish in cycle the only thing you really need to do is the water changes, lightly feed your fish and use Prime to keep them safe until the cycle is finished.

It is my understanding that the plus in stress coat plus is the addition of aloe. That is one more thing that is a totally unnecessary addition to a water conditioner. Companies make more money if they can convince us that it is good and necessary for keeping our water pets healthy. Shouldn't hurt them but I really don't think it helps either. It is just one more gimmick to get us to buy this product instead of another brand.

Life and experience has made me very suspicious of unproven/unprove-able claims so I try to just make recommendations on products that I have actually used and products that have actually worked for me.

I do spend a lot of time here on this forum and others and take note of problems others have had with some of the products available. Some just plain don't work so one may as well just throw their money in the trash bin than to put it in the pocket of those that are selling a useless product. In my humble opinion the majority of the products sold to those of us that have gotten into this hobby are snake oil but they know we will at least try it because we want the best for our water pets.

All of this rambling to say ..... Get a bottle of Prime and keep the ammonia low with water changes and you can store for now any other products you have purchased. Any of the water conditioners you have on hand that takes care of chlorine and heavy metals can be used after you get through the cycle and no longer have the ammonia problem.

 

Got prime, done another 50% change. I realize now that my Aqueon Water conditioner uses the exact same language as Prime including detoxifying ammonia so I've probably been using it all along. Who knows if my ammonia readings are accurate and how much is free ammonia. I will wait and see and keep up with the advice given in this thread, thank you all.

I do understand how confusing it can all be since there are so many products on the market. A lot of them claim to do a lot of things but in my humble opinion the majority of the products are useless and the only thing they do is make huge profits for the ones that put it out there for us to buy.

At this point in your fish in cycle the only thing you really need to do is the water changes, lightly feed your fish and use Prime to keep them safe until the cycle is finished.

It is my understanding that the plus in stress coat plus is the addition of aloe. That is one more thing that is a totally unnecessary addition to a water conditioner. Companies make more money if they can convince us that it is good and necessary for keeping our water pets healthy. Shouldn't hurt them but I really don't think it helps either. It is just one more gimmick to get us to buy this product instead of another brand.

Life and experience has made me very suspicious of unproven/unprove-able claims so I try to just make recommendations on products that I have actually used and products that have actually worked for me.

I do spend a lot of time here on this forum and others and take note of problems others have had with some of the products available. Some just plain don't work so one may as well just throw their money in the trash bin than to put it in the pocket of those that are selling a useless product. In my humble opinion the majority of the products sold to those of us that have gotten into this hobby are snake oil but they know we will at least try it because we want the best for our water pets.

All of this rambling to say ..... Get a bottle of Prime and keep the ammonia low with water changes and you can store for now any other products you have purchased. Any of the water conditioners you have on hand that takes care of chlorine and heavy metals can be used after you get through the cycle and no longer have the ammonia problem.

Sorry, I was writing a reply at the same time of you. Thank you for your advice, I will keep up with the Prime. I think you nailed what I was talking about, I don't want to buy into the hype of all these different products, but I realize there is a lot to get my aquarium cycled and keep these little guys alive at the same time. My last ammonia is still around 4 despite the water change and additions but I know I am meant to wait 24hrs before reading with prime.

 

Most bacteria starters do the same yes. But not all of them contain the right bacteria to stay alive and active once dumped into the water. I believe a lot of them use “land” bacteria instead of bacteria that thrive in water. Which means they won’t survive long enough to do the job properly. Tetra safe start is one that has shown better results if done the right way, because they use a better strand of bacteria. Not all products are equal in the fishkeeping world unfortunately.

It is so hard to sift through all the “ buy me were the greatest!” Stuff and not get overwhelmed with it all. Fish keeping is not that hard, you just have to learn the solid basics. Then research what the best product for a problem is and read some more. After a lot of trial and error you will find it wasn’t that hard. But as a newbie it seems like too much.

If you do the basics right, you’ll have a lot less trouble down the road. If you have to fix the basics it becomes a juggling act, if not, it sure feels like it lol.

If your rating says 8ppm or 4 that is how much ammonia is in your water. A prime or anything else that makes it less harmful or turns it into a less harmful version won’t affect that rating. This means although part of it is now less harmful, it still needs to get the **** out of your water and quick.

Don’t ever do 90% water changes, you’ll just risk starting another cycle because you just don’t have enough bacteria left.

You can do that when you have an established tank for example, or good seeded( full of bacteria) filter media to catch the “blow”. But only in dire cases.

Just keep on doing water changes until the levels are as low as you can get.

I would still get tetra safe start in there to boost bacteria and help cycle your tank quicker. But that’s me. I’m a bit cautious when it comes to living beings. I feel so bad whenever I make a mistake. I tend to go overboard.

 

Get some sponge filter media. You can get a huge sheet of it on Amazon for around $12. Since you’re using a cartridge filter and will periodically need to replace that cartridge (as infrequently as possible), you want more permanent media to augment it so you don’t completely undo your cycle every time. What I did was cut a big block of the sponge and then cut a slit in the block and shoved my intake tube into it. I also cut some pieces to wedge into the space in front of the cartridge where the intake water spills into the filter chamber. You basically want to get as much surface area as you can into your filtration for the BB to grow on. Sponge will give you lots of BB to not only speed up your cycle but also protect you from undoing your cycle when you replace your cartridge.

 

You can do back to back 50% water changes. I personally wouldn't do a 90% water change but I think doing smaller water changes more often is better than one big one.


You do not need a multitude of products. You need one product and that one product is prime. Water changes to keep the ammonia levels low (less than 1.0) and prime to bind/neutralize what is left is ALL you have to do.

I think the majority of the folks here on this thread are telling you the same thing. We can only advise. Only you can read what we are saying and then it is your choice as to what to actually do. Most of us have been where you are right now and are trying to tell you the easiest and yes, the best way to get this tank on track.

If you don't want to do this and go ahead and buy and use ammo-lock DON'T be surprised to start seeing high levels of ammonia 'specially if you don't keep up with the much needed water changes. If I understand correctly while using ammo-lock the ammonia is just converted to the less harmful ammonium but it is still there and will continue to rise. But then no matter what product you use the ammonia will continue to rise if you don't keep up with the water changes.

If you do decide to try again with the bottled bacteria and go with Tetra Safe Start Plus you just have to get the ammonia as low as possible with water changes before adding the TSS+ and then do nothing for 14 days other than lightly feeding you fish.

WATER CHANGES are the most important right now! That’s the only way to get ammonia down. Keep it under 1 ppm. I agree, just use prime and frequent water changes. But first do 2-3 water changes ( small ) under 50% until your ammonia is less than 1 ppm. Prime every time you add tap water. It might take 8 weeks or so to cycle the tank. Be patient, you can do this.

 

I used TetraSafeStart successfully. Don’t know about QuickStart.

I regularly do 50-60% water changes but would not hesitate to do an 80-90% if my ammonia was at 8ppm, or even 4ppm.

My water changes are all to reduce nitrates that will not kill fish even at 100 ppm. But ammonia or nitrites, wouldn’t think twice about getting the water as low as possible.

But with .5 ammonia, you’ll still have ammonia.

The recommendation to use Prime is a good one.

My only additive except for ferts for the plants.

 

I realize now that my uses the exact same language as Prime including detoxifying so I've probably been using it all along.

A number of products work basically the same as Prime. Aqueon, Amquel, Aqua Safe, will all detoxify ammonia and nitrite. The only reason I prefer Prime is because it's more concentrated. For example 1/5 teaspoon (20 drops) per 10 gallons vs. 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons. Cost-wise I'm not sure how they compare, but I think Prime may be more economical as well. A product like API Tap Water Conditioner looks like a good deal, but doesn't detox ammonia. I know, it's confusing, and I like to keep it simple. There's a ton of snakeoil in this industry.

 

Thank you again for the additional advice all.

I am doing 50% ish water changes every day. Someone previously said to do back to back changes, I have interpreted this as every day, not literally over and over to get ammonia down, else I may aswell do the 90% change. My ammonia numbers have gone from 8ppm to 4, to 2. After 24hrs they go up 2ppm before the change. For example, it was 4ppm, and now sitting at 2. I know this is high still.

I have been using the Prime so if it is detoxifying the ammonia, that chemical reaction is still leaving it to be read by my liquid test kit though and I am not seeing the effect. I can only hope the amount of free ammonia is less than my readings thanks to the Prime. I am going to continue with the water changes, getting out the ammonia and the presumably detoxified ammonia.

Kjeldsen, thank you for your post. I will be honest though and tell you I couldn't careless as a beginner about the concentration and cost savings. I look at the these bottles and how they will treat 500 gallons and think woopde doo while I solve my problems with yet another product suggested.

Riff- Aqueon say that the bio media of their filter is actually all the plastic components, and not the filter itself, which is why the filter can be changed, does this seem logical? I will invest in some good sponge filter media anyway.