Getting a dog. Advice needed.

Canacullus

Member
My family is getting an English Shepherd puppy in the beginning of January. Right now I am pretty confused about feeding. I want to not spend a fortune on food, but also not feed garbage. I know most of the big bags of dry food are fully of starchy fillers, and the ones that aren't cost a fortune. I am wondering if there are any dry foods that are good, or even wet food. Or would it just be better to feed it raw vegetables and meats? I like this idea, but my mom does not wan't to have to cook for more members of the family.

Now for training. I understand that their goal is to help and please their owner(s). We will be getting it at 12 weeks old, about the time it becomes 'adolescent'. This is when they establish who is the leader of the pack and who are followers, so I know rough play is not advised until week 16 or 18. I think what I will do for the first several days is just let it roam the house and kinda follow it around, disciplining it based on what it does. I will not start actual training sessions until ~week 13. I think for training it to go outside we have a decent plan. If it poops in the house, we rub it's nose in it. My parents have experience doing this, and they say it works real fast. Any suggestions?

Once it becomes time for actual training sessions, I will just do it for like 30 seconds at a time throughout the day.
 

CrazedHoosier

Member
Raw meat and veggies are always going to be superior, but it’s a very touchy diet. You can’t get it wrong or you can really put your dog’s health in danger.

Most high-quality foods are going to be expensive, and you have to be willing to spend the money if you want your dog to have a healthy, long life. Avoid the expensive dog foods that have vegetables as the first 5 ingredients, though. Those have recently been found to cause heart problems if used long-term. I use Eagle Pack’s lamb kibble coupled with Eagle Pack’s wet turkey. I avoid Science Diet, IAMs, Pedigree, Cesar, Purina, and Royal Canin.

The poop and nose rubbing thing, is obsolete and a bit abusive. It also just teaches your dog to be scared of you more than anything. A simple but firm “no” and a snap of your fingers if you see them pottying inside the house, is sufficient. Reinforce pottying outside by doing lots of “good doggy!!” whenever he/she goes potty outside. Follow that with treats.

Raising a puppy can be stressing, but the friend they become makes it all worth it. Don’t overthink things, and give lots of love.

Also, I find snapping your fingers whenever you want your dog to follow your command, really helps. After a long period of time, they’ll always respond to your snaps, and can usually assume what you want.
 
  • Thread Starter

Canacullus

Member
Thanks! That's all good to know. I actually just found the brand below.



That house training part makes sense. Again, we will be getting it at 12 weeks from a very reliable breeder. It will be living with other ESs until we get it, so it should now parts of some basic stuff like 'don't bite' and the breeders keep their dogs near chickens, so that is also great (we have 9 chickens). Any other suggestions?
 

CrazedHoosier

Member
aquanerd14 said:
Thanks! That's all good to know. I actually just found the brand below.



That house training part makes sense. Again, we will be getting it at 12 weeks from a very reliable breeder. It will be living with other ESs until we get it, so it should now parts of some basic stuff like 'don't bite' and the breeders keep their dogs near chickens, so that is also great (we have 9 chickens). Any other suggestions?
I love chickens! Such cute/interesting animals.

The food brand sounds like a pretty safe bet!

Remember to also introduce your pup to as many new things as possible, as this will reduce their stress towards the general outside world a lot. Whenever my pup was scared of something, I’d always run up to the thing he was scared of with him to show him it’s good to face your fears, and to not be scared of anything. Well, anything non-deadly. Socialize him/her around people, kids, cats, dogs, the elderly, the disabled, and everything in between! In a few years you’ll find you have a mature, content dog that is able to handle itself while you’re gone.

The fact you’re willing to ask questions and do research, shows how responsible of an owner you are. It’s hard to go wrong with a dog when you have an owner like that!
 

MrFishkeeper1

Member
I would recommend using taste of the wild- Pacific Stream Canine Recipe and I would "mix" the food with Ancient Prarie Canine Recipe, I would feed that and also raw meat diet once a day. Now the first five ingredients for both of these do contain a lot of plant matter but combining it with a raw meat diet would be very good for your dog. If you hunt I would recommend using meat from the animal you hunt. However, some meat may not be "safe" for your dog but look into that. Otherwise, I would use Salmon, Lamb, or Turkey. Make sure to mix up the meat as some dogs can get "tired" of the same meat. Also if you want info on any dog breed to use Vetstreet, Dog Breeds List, or Top Dog Tips.
 

PascalKrypt

Member
Congrats! Sounds like a warm home it is going to :)

Can't really help you with the brands because I live across the big pond.


However, training wise..

#1: Be. Consistent.
#2: Be. Consistent.
Seriously. Whatever kind of dog you have and whatever kind of things you want to teach it, this is the most important quality to have as an owner. Unlike with kids, you cannot explain to your dog what reasons you may have for doing something or wanting it to do something. Unlike with lots of other pets, dogs have developed human-oriented social skills over many thousands of years. They are intelligent enough to pay close attention to their owners and actively look to you for guidance.
So the only way you can make clear what you want is by making it simple for your dog; there is rule A and B, and these rules always apply. I don't want behaviour C, so I never find behaviour C acceptable. If you want to differentiate a behaviour in two different circumstances (e.g. the dog can be on the couch sometimes, but not always) then get some kind of visual marker, make this very clear, and *always* apply it.
E.g. the dog can go on the couch when there is a plaid on it. If you choose to make such a differentiation, never allow the dog on the couch when the plaid is not on it, even if it seems like a hassle this one time, or the plaid is in the washing machine, or whatever. Too bad for fido, no plaid = no couch. This rule is extremely important for food as well. NEVER allow your dog to eat from a table or off a plate. If you want it to eat, say, the remnants of your dinner, then wait until the humans are all done eating, go over to the kitchen, put your leftovers in its food bowl, and then put it down in the usual spot for it to eat. This is how you keep a dog from begging behaviour. Moreover if you are 100% strict in teaching a dog that a table is no place for dogs, you can also calmly keep your large dog unsupervised near, say a coffee table with some biscuits on it.
As that example shows, this may sound a little harsh but it actually makes your relationship way more pleasant in the long run, because the dog 'gets' the rules and you never have to tell it off or deal with unwanted behaviour.
#3: Think about what your behaviour is like from your dog's perspective.
As I said, dogs are intelligent. Some dogs more so than others can anticipate commands and even adopt new rules with just a single demonstration. While this may seem handy, if you have this kind of dog, you also need to be aware that the dog cannot tell when you are or are not setting a rule, so any random behaviour from you can be interpreted as a new one.
For instance, if you call your dog by its name and it doesn't come, you are effectively teaching your dog to ignore its name. If you ask it to sit and it doesn't, and you ask again and then it does, you are teaching it that it only has to sit if you ask twice. If you ignore your dog's silently begging for a walk, but then when it starts scratching the door you hurriedly get up and walk it to prevent damage to your door, you *are* effectively teaching your dog to scratch the door when it wants to go for a walk (because that was effective!).
So be aware, especially when your dog is young and the household 'rules' are not yet established, that your dog is reading your behaviour for cues constantly, even if you are not acting that way with any intention. Ignore any and all unwanted behaviour, and only give the dog what it wants when it stops doing what you don't want it to do to prevent endorsing begging/scratching/whining/etc.
If you want to teach it certain commands, only do so when you know the dog is likely to listen. Otherwise you risk teaching your dog to ignore the commands. (E.g. only call a puppy to come to you when it is already running towards you, to teach it to associate that word with coming towards you).

#4: Quick doggy life hack. This is a frequent misunderstanding, but dogs are actually more sensitive to physical cues (hand gestures, postures, leaning, etc.) than they are to verbal commands (presumably because of the great amount of nonsensical chatter your dog has to filter out every day). Combine verbal commands with hand gestures, your dog will listen way faster and more consistently so (and how cool is it when you can make it do tricks just by making hand gestures). They pay immense attention to this, to the point where I can make my dog stay or follow depending on whether I step away with my left foot or right foot first. Things like snapping your fingers or tapping your foot (sit), showing your flat palm (down), slapping your thigh on the outside (heel) and clapping the front of your upper thighs (come) are some examples of simple, well-understood gestures. You can mix and match however you like. Herding dogs like yours are exceptionally quick to catch up on this.
Again though, consistently is the key here.

#5: Think about how you want to correct your dog when he does something wrong. Physical or harsh verbal punishment risks teaching the dog most of all (beyond the behaviour being undesired) that it gets punished if you get a hold of it afterwards. This can make it impossible for instance, to catch your dog when it has escaped or when it has something it is not allowed to have, or to keep it from swallowing something in its mouth. If the dog did not understand the behaviour was wrong, it may associate anything randomly correlated (like nearby objects, or whatever it is doing at the time you catch it afterwards) as the wrong behaviour, which can lead to anxiety and other bizarre problems (like your dog thinking it is not allowed in the living room, or near the TV, etc.).
This is also a matter of getting to know your dog though. Some dogs are sensitive and best not scolded (usually for these dogs, ignoring them for an hour has a better effect), other dogs may little devils that won't be impressed unless you let them know who's boss. Never correct from a place of anger or frustration though, also do so calmly and with a purpose in mind.
Not to say you can never correct your dog, but think about how you do it and what kind of message it sends. Never punish a dog that has run away and came back, for instance, or you will be teaching it that "coming back" is a bad thing (however frustrating that may be at the moment).

Oh and last but not least, since you've got quite a big dog - never allow yourself to be intimidated by your dog. It will know instantly and if has that kind of personality, immediately occupy that space that you've given up. You can check this regularly when your dog is still small by making small 'dominant' gestures (don't do this too often, just like 2-3 times a week) like occupying its space - is it sitting in a corner of the couch? Too bad, I want to sit there now. Linger/hover over the dog until it moves, or tell it to scoot over with a command. If it won't, physically push it away. If the dog gets mad at you (growling, snapping back at where you are pushing it), don't pull back your hand but tell it off with a short, sharp verbal command ("no" or "hey") and push it off the couch with some force - not to the side, but *off* the couch, on the ground, below you. If this reaction happens more occasionally, put the dog on its back by rolling it over and keep it there (gently) until it relaxes.
Another important one is to see if the dog accepts your touching its food bowl and moving its food bowl when you feed it. If it growls, see above. Don't let yourself get overruled (the pup is still small, so this is the moment to teach it rather than later), but tell the dog off and take the bowl.
(You can pre-emptively rule this behaviour out by teaching the dog to eat on command, but this may be a bit daunting for a first time owner as it can take a lot of patience in the beginning)
Not saying all dogs will do this, but this kind of thing is always a hazard with new owners of larger dogs. Too many people let their dog 'run the house', then are all mystified when it won't show respect for them later.

By the way, the #1 most effective way of getting your dog housetrained doesn't require any kind of correction at all and works from day #1 if you are consistent (see rule #1 above :D).
Feed your dog at set times of the day. For a puppy 3 to 4 times a small amount is best. Straight after your puppy finishes eating, put it in the yard (on a leash if it isn't fenced, otherwise just turn it loose) and watch for your puppy to do its thing - won't take long. Then while it does, praise your puppy and say a one word command (I use "pee" for both needs, but you can make up any word if you'd like to be less explicit). Then praise it enthusiastically.
If your puppy has slept for more than 20 minutes and wakes up, do the same - take it outside *immediately* and wait for it to do its thing. Repeat the command. Praise abundantly.
After two to three days, you will start to recognise the behaviour/stance of looking for a good spot to do their thing - use the command just a few seconds before they take their leak/dump. Then after about a few days to a week, the dog should have a good enough association that you can use the word as you put the puppy outside, it will understand what is expected of it, and look for a place to do its thing.

If you feed your dog at regular times, after its bladder has grown more than pea-sized (pun intended) it will have learnt to hold it until after the meal. Up to about 6 months though, it will still need to urinate noticably more frequently than an adult dog so pre-emptively put it outside after a long nap and just after a couple of hours (using your command at the door) if you don't feed it more than twice a day.
This command is really handy even when your dog is an adult if you need to go away for a long period of time or when you are travelling, because you have effectively taught your dog to empty its bladder and bowels on command.

As for the 'rubbing your dog's nose in it technique', most dogs that are not overly stressed or left indoors for far too much/long will teach themselves good toilet manners in time regardless of what you do. Nearly all dogs prefer a clean nest and so rather do their business outside than inside, if they have a choice. I strongly doubt that a dog will spontaneously understand from your pushing it into its poop that the lesson is "don't do this on my carpet" rather than say, "never defecate ever" or "if you ever drink from your bowl (or w/e the dog was doing when you spotted the mess and went to get it) I will rub your nose in poop!". Remember from what I wrote in the beginning that a dog cannot interpret the reasons you have for your actions, it can only try to judge by correlation and consistency what you want.

Hope some of that is useful! :3

Edit: Oh wow, what a wall of text. Sorry, hahaha xD I'm a tad too passionate about dogs.
 

Jakkie

Member
Everyone seems to have you covered on training, however if you're interested in Ollie dog food, also consider Honest Kitchen brand, I would go with one of the whole grain versions since grain free is being linked to heart problems. My dog does great on it the Whole Grain Chicken recipe. And whatever you choose with training, be consistent. That means everyone who comes in regular contact with the dog has to also be consistent with whatever you're doing. Good luck! Side note: puzzle toys are great for puppies!
 

Dunk2

Member
PascalKrypt said:
Congrats! Sounds like a warm home it is going to :)

Can't really help you with the brands because I live across the big pond.


However, training wise..

#1: Be. Consistent.
#2: Be. Consistent.
Seriously. Whatever kind of dog you have and whatever kind of things you want to teach it, this is the most important quality to have as an owner. Unlike with kids, you cannot explain to your dog what reasons you may have for doing something or wanting it to do something. Unlike with lots of other pets, dogs have developed human-oriented social skills over many thousands of years. They are intelligent enough to pay close attention to their owners and actively look to you for guidance.
So the only way you can make clear what you want is by making it simple for your dog; there is rule A and B, and these rules always apply. I don't want behaviour C, so I never find behaviour C acceptable. If you want to differentiate a behaviour in two different circumstances (e.g. the dog can be on the couch sometimes, but not always) then get some kind of visual marker, make this very clear, and *always* apply it.
E.g. the dog can go on the couch when there is a plaid on it. If you choose to make such a differentiation, never allow the dog on the couch when the plaid is not on it, even if it seems like a hassle this one time, or the plaid is in the washing machine, or whatever. Too bad for fido, no plaid = no couch. This rule is extremely important for food as well. NEVER allow your dog to eat from a table or off a plate. If you want it to eat, say, the remnants of your dinner, then wait until the humans are all done eating, go over to the kitchen, put your leftovers in its food bowl, and then put it down in the usual spot for it to eat. This is how you keep a dog from begging behaviour. Moreover if you are 100% strict in teaching a dog that a table is no place for dogs, you can also calmly keep your large dog unsupervised near, say a coffee table with some biscuits on it.
As that example shows, this may sound a little harsh but it actually makes your relationship way more pleasant in the long run, because the dog 'gets' the rules and you never have to tell it off or deal with unwanted behaviour.
#3: Think about what your behaviour is like from your dog's perspective.
As I said, dogs are intelligent. Some dogs more so than others can anticipate commands and even adopt new rules with just a single demonstration. While this may seem handy, if you have this kind of dog, you also need to be aware that the dog cannot tell when you are or are not setting a rule, so any random behaviour from you can be interpreted as a new one.
For instance, if you call your dog by its name and it doesn't come, you are effectively teaching your dog to ignore its name. If you ask it to sit and it doesn't, and you ask again and then it does, you are teaching it that it only has to sit if you ask twice. If you ignore your dog's silently begging for a walk, but then when it starts scratching the door you hurriedly get up and walk it to prevent damage to your door, you *are* effectively teaching your dog to scratch the door when it wants to go for a walk (because that was effective!).
So be aware, especially when your dog is young and the household 'rules' are not yet established, that your dog is reading your behaviour for cues constantly, even if you are not acting that way with any intention. Ignore any and all unwanted behaviour, and only give the dog what it wants when it stops doing what you don't want it to do to prevent endorsing begging/scratching/whining/etc.
If you want to teach it certain commands, only do so when you know the dog is likely to listen. Otherwise you risk teaching your dog to ignore the commands. (E.g. only call a puppy to come to you when it is already running towards you, to teach it to associate that word with coming towards you).

#4: Quick doggy life hack. This is a frequent misunderstanding, but dogs are actually more sensitive to physical cues (hand gestures, postures, leaning, etc.) than they are to verbal commands (presumably because of the great amount of nonsensical chatter your dog has to filter out every day). Combine verbal commands with hand gestures, your dog will listen way faster and more consistently so (and how cool is it when you can make it do tricks just by making hand gestures). They pay immense attention to this, to the point where I can make my dog stay or follow depending on whether I step away with my left foot or right foot first. Things like snapping your fingers or tapping your foot (sit), showing your flat palm (down), slapping your thigh on the outside (heel) and clapping the front of your upper thighs (come) are some examples of simple, well-understood gestures. You can mix and match however you like. Herding dogs like yours are exceptionally quick to catch up on this.
Again though, consistently is the key here.

#5: Think about how you want to correct your dog when he does something wrong. Physical or harsh verbal punishment risks teaching the dog most of all (beyond the behaviour being undesired) that it gets punished if you get a hold of it afterwards. This can make it impossible for instance, to catch your dog when it has escaped or when it has something it is not allowed to have, or to keep it from swallowing something in its mouth. If the dog did not understand the behaviour was wrong, it may associate anything randomly correlated (like nearby objects, or whatever it is doing at the time you catch it afterwards) as the wrong behaviour, which can lead to anxiety and other bizarre problems (like your dog thinking it is not allowed in the living room, or near the TV, etc.).
This is also a matter of getting to know your dog though. Some dogs are sensitive and best not scolded (usually for these dogs, ignoring them for an hour has a better effect), other dogs may little devils that won't be impressed unless you let them know who's boss. Never correct from a place of anger or frustration though, also do so calmly and with a purpose in mind.
Not to say you can never correct your dog, but think about how you do it and what kind of message it sends. Never punish a dog that has run away and came back, for instance, or you will be teaching it that "coming back" is a bad thing (however frustrating that may be at the moment).

Oh and last but not least, since you've got quite a big dog - never allow yourself to be intimidated by your dog. It will know instantly and if has that kind of personality, immediately occupy that space that you've given up. You can check this regularly when your dog is still small by making small 'dominant' gestures (don't do this too often, just like 2-3 times a week) like occupying its space - is it sitting in a corner of the couch? Too bad, I want to sit there now. Linger/hover over the dog until it moves, or tell it to scoot over with a command. If it won't, physically push it away. If the dog gets mad at you (growling, snapping back at where you are pushing it), don't pull back your hand but tell it off with a short, sharp verbal command ("no" or "hey") and push it off the couch with some force - not to the side, but *off* the couch, on the ground, below you. If this reaction happens more occasionally, put the dog on its back by rolling it over and keep it there (gently) until it relaxes.
Another important one is to see if the dog accepts your touching its food bowl and moving its food bowl when you feed it. If it growls, see above. Don't let yourself get overruled (the pup is still small, so this is the moment to teach it rather than later), but tell the dog off and take the bowl.
(You can pre-emptively rule this behaviour out by teaching the dog to eat on command, but this may be a bit daunting for a first time owner as it can take a lot of patience in the beginning)
Not saying all dogs will do this, but this kind of thing is always a hazard with new owners of larger dogs. Too many people let their dog 'run the house', then are all mystified when it won't show respect for them later.

By the way, the #1 most effective way of getting your dog housetrained doesn't require any kind of correction at all and works from day #1 if you are consistent (see rule #1 above :D).
Feed your dog at set times of the day. For a puppy 3 to 4 times a small amount is best. Straight after your puppy finishes eating, put it in the yard (on a leash if it isn't fenced, otherwise just turn it loose) and watch for your puppy to do its thing - won't take long. Then while it does, praise your puppy and say a one word command (I use "pee" for both needs, but you can make up any word if you'd like to be less explicit). Then praise it enthusiastically.
If your puppy has slept for more than 20 minutes and wakes up, do the same - take it outside *immediately* and wait for it to do its thing. Repeat the command. Praise abundantly.
After two to three days, you will start to recognise the behaviour/stance of looking for a good spot to do their thing - use the command just a few seconds before they take their leak/dump. Then after about a few days to a week, the dog should have a good enough association that you can use the word as you put the puppy outside, it will understand what is expected of it, and look for a place to do its thing.

If you feed your dog at regular times, after its bladder has grown more than pea-sized (pun intended) it will have learnt to hold it until after the meal. Up to about 6 months though, it will still need to urinate noticably more frequently than an adult dog so pre-emptively put it outside after a long nap and just after a couple of hours (using your command at the door) if you don't feed it more than twice a day.
This command is really handy even when your dog is an adult if you need to go away for a long period of time or when you are travelling, because you have effectively taught your dog to empty its bladder and bowels on command.

As for the 'rubbing your dog's nose in it technique', most dogs that are not overly stressed or left indoors for far too much/long will teach themselves good toilet manners in time regardless of what you do. Nearly all dogs prefer a clean nest and so rather do their business outside than inside, if they have a choice. I strongly doubt that a dog will spontaneously understand from your pushing it into its poop that the lesson is "don't do this on my carpet" rather than say, "never defecate ever" or "if you ever drink from your bowl (or w/e the dog was doing when you spotted the mess and went to get it) I will rub your nose in poop!". Remember from what I wrote in the beginning that a dog cannot interpret the reasons you have for your actions, it can only try to judge by correlation and consistency what you want.

Hope some of that is useful! :3

Edit: Oh wow, what a wall of text. Sorry, hahaha xD I'm a tad too passionate about dogs.
Well written! And consistent.
 

FitSoldier

Member
I backyard potty trained my Beagle named Ranger. I never did the "rub its nose in his/her poop" thing because it'll probably just confuse the dog. I never even said "no!" to the dog when he had an accident cause I don't think he would understand English lol

I just kept taking him to the backyard whenever I saw signs he needed to "go". Very quickly, around 3-4 months of age (I got him at 9 weeks old), he learned to scratch the door whenever he needed to use the washroom. Might not be as fast for every dog, but I got him used to it and he learned fast.
 
  • Thread Starter

Canacullus

Member
PascalKrypt, thanks to you especially I know feel very confident in the training part. Thank you all so much! I am just kinda concerned because my family members are all honkys, so if the dog met a black person after only meeting white people, would it react aggressively? I don't live in a very racially diverse part of the country either. I have looked into other dog foods to, and decided the Ollie brand is kinda spendy. This dog will eat ~30 lbs of food a month. Are any of these brands any good?

Purina Beyond Simply 9
Natural balance Ultra 1

Blue buffalo
Taste of The Wild

The purina stuff is the cheapest at ~$1 per pound, but it also has canola is the first ingredient, followed by chicken meal. Is this stuff acceptable? If not, the other stuff is all similar pricing. I think Taste of The Wild is the best quality, but I thought I'd ask first.

Another major concern I have is my grandparents dog. They live on the property with us, along with a 4 lbs multise. He is untrained, has many many many bad habits, and is a spoiled brat. He runs away whenever he is let out, he eats scraps off the table to. Would our dog learn bad habits from him?
 

CrazedHoosier

Member
What does it mean to be honky? I’ve honestly never thought of race through a dog’s eyes, but I sort of doubt they care. They deal with different colored dogs all the time, so what’s the difference with humans?

I honestly would avoid Purina like the plague. They have such a bad reputation among the dog-keeping community. From carcinogens being found in their food, to their food causing premature death, Purina has suffered a lot of rumors. Blue Buffalo has suffered similar critiques, but I believe their ingredients are of higher quality, and they generally know what they’re doing. I don’t know about the others.

Yes, dogs are one of the most socially intricate animals on earth, so they’ll learn things from each other as well as you. It’s extremely hard to teach your dog to act a certain way when other dogs he/she is close to, are acting different. It’s in their nature to coordinate with the pack. You probably either shouldn’t expose your dog to the unruly dog while he displays these behaviors, or maybe should avoid the dog altogether. You can try to train him differently when they’re together, but it’ll really be difficult.
 

PascalKrypt

Member
aquanerd14 said:
my family members are all honkys, so if the dog met a black person after only meeting white people, would it react aggressively?
That made me crack up a little! :D No, dogs don't do racial profiling. However! (big however), as mentioned dogs are extremely sensitive to physical cues from their owners. If you (often subconsciously) meet someone you are hesitant or a teeny bit uncomfortable about or scared of, the dog will sense it - as you will do little things like shift ever so slightly to a defense/less open pose, tense up, hesitate in approaching, etc. - and he will react accordingly, which for some dogs is to also get nervous and for other dogs to get defense of you. This is most common reason why dogs can get aggressive seemingly 'out of nowhere' on the street, either due to your own body language or that of the person approaching you or passing by. Never pull on a leash and keep pressure 'preventatively' as this signals nervousness/tenseness to your dog that can translate in it wanting to lurch forward and get more aggressive. Instead just insist on it walking by your side (heel), keep the leash loose but still relatively short so you can reign it in quickly if necessary and if you are worried about a possible encounter block your dog from other people/dogs approaching by having it walk on the other side of you, like the inside of the sidewalk etc. I wouldn't be too worried though, as I think your dog breed is not really prone to these issues.
On the other hand, some dogs just don't like some people. The breeder of one of my dogs refused a buyer because the mother just really hated that man's guts for some reason, from the moment he set foot in the house (but was okay with his wife). She (the dog) is usually extremely friendly and an attention hog, so the breeder was worried about the dog's instincts. Well you never know, but just like some people just instinctively dislike some people so dogs do with other dogs and sometimes, other people. My smallest dog hates one of the kids we have over during the holidays, she won't allow the girl to pet her and always runs away when she comes near. Even though the other kids are okay and that one girl has no specific history of being bad with dogs. One time the girl lured her with a treat and then finally managed to pick her up. My little dog yelped like her life depended on it, I was across the room and thought someone had stepped on her! Immediately took her back, had to console the poor, disappointed girl. It happens.

aquanerd14 said:
Another major concern I have is my grandparents dog. They live on the property with us, along with a 4 lbs multise. He is untrained, has many many many bad habits, and is a spoiled brat. He runs away whenever he is let out, he eats scraps off the table to. Would our dog learn bad habits from him?
Yep, that happens with small lap dogs. If you have bad luck, he won't look kindly on that big fellow trying to take his golden spot (but he'll be put in his place since your dog gets way bigger). His behaviour won't 'rub off' but it can be a challenge to tell your dog not to do things the other dog is allowed to do. Same thing though, just be consistent and it will be okay. I would be more worried about the 'running away', you may not want to walk the dog of them together in the first crucial phase when your dog is still learning, as they do copy that kind of behaviour from each other. Dogs always dare to go further from their owners if they are with companions.
Just be wary of two things. First, jealousy. Since the lap dog will be allowed tasty snacks and indulgences that your dog won't, this could be a source of bad blood between them. Personally the biggest jealousy problems I have encountered have to do with placing though. The lap dog is allowed up high, which is a more dominant/superior position to being on the ground. This can trigger some instincts between the two dogs, with the way that goes depending on their personalities. Either the small dog can start feeling superior and try to exert that superiority on your dog (which again I wouldn't worry about, because yours gets way larger so not much competition there). On the other hand your dog may at some point decide to claI'm the smaller dog's spots for himself. I don't know if they would ever share a couch or living room, or an outdoor table set? This could spell some trouble. There is a balance to be had between allow the dog to have some claims of his own (he should be allowed to claI'm a chair and tell the other dog he can't sit there is there isn't space) and being a jerk about it (he should not be allowed to claI'm the whole couch if there is plenty of space left, or claI'm a chair but sit next to it and chase the other dog off when he tries to sit there).
The same goes for claiming of objects, in the beginning when your dog is young there may be some skirmishes over who gets to have a toy or a ball. You need to give them some space to sort this out, but don't allow either dog (especially yours that will be more powerful) to be a jerk about claiming stuff.

Edit: Oh, and you may want to really drill it through your grandparents' skull that they will have a problem if they start feeding your dog scraps off the table. Though dogs will adjust their behaviour depending on who is near them, it is very much possible for other people to ruin your dog's upbringing. Because they can ruin your consistency.
 

MomeWrath

Member
Jakkie said:
Everyone seems to have you covered on training, however if you're interested in Ollie dog food, also consider Honest Kitchen brand, I would go with one of the whole grain versions since grain free is being linked to heart problems. My dog does great on it the Whole Grain Chicken recipe. And whatever you choose with training, be consistent. That means everyone who comes in regular contact with the dog has to also be consistent with whatever you're doing. Good luck! Side note: puzzle toys are great for puppies!
Absolutely 100% on all of this...with one add (which I may have missed because honestly TL;DR I skimmed the main points...but...
WALK your dog. On a leash, twice a day. It is the single most important thing you can do to bond with him, and research good walking technique, i.e. you walk the dog he does not walk you. This reinforces YOU as the leader every single day, gives him the exercise he needs, and best of all he gets to be with his person. I had the BEST dag following all of the above advice. Our dog would not eat a steak if you left it on the coffee table because he just never got people food and he always ate after us. He would not go on the furniture, or into the kids' rooms, and when someone knocked on the door he would bark once and then go into his crate and sit down. Regarding potty training, your puppy can wait about the number of months in age between potty breaks. 2 mos. = 2 hours between potty breaks, 6 mos. 6 hours... (to a point obviously but it's a good rule of thumb for puppies). If you follow that rule between potty breaks, you will probably not have any accidents. Our dog had one accident as a puppy. It's a lot of work at first, but it eliminates the need for even considering any kind of punishment for accidents (which you should never do).
There's an addage I love about potty training:
If your dog makes a mess in the house, take a rolled up newspaper and hit yourself in the head with it because you weren't paying enough attention. :D
 

Beneful1

Member
Rubbing a dogs nose in its poop is animal abuse.
 
  • Thread Starter

Canacullus

Member
Our grandparent live on the same 3 acres as us, but they live in what used to be the guest house, which is adjacent to the main house (where we are). They also travel very frequently, and the dog often goes to my grandpa's sister to be taken care of while they are away, so the don't really live together.
Also, let it be known I couldn't care less what the Multise thinks, as long as he doesn't get hurt. If he is insulted by the new dog, so be it.
 
  • Thread Starter

Canacullus

Member
So I have interpreted, from various sources, that dogs need to be socialized while still very young. Except of our dog is socialized with the Multise while very young, it might cause problems. What is the solution?

Magicpenny75 said:
Absolutely 100% on all of this...with one add (which I may have missed because honestly TL;DR I skimmed the main points...but...
WALK your dog. On a leash, twice a day. It is the single most important thing you can do to bond with him, and research good walking technique, i.e. you walk the dog he does not walk you. This reinforces YOU as the leader every single day, gives him the exercise he needs, and best of all he gets to be with his person. I had the BEST dag following all of the above advice. Our dog would not eat a steak if you left it on the coffee table because he just never got people food and he always ate after us. He would not go on the furniture, or into the kids' rooms, and when someone knocked on the door he would bark once and then go into his crate and sit down. Regarding potty training, your puppy can wait about the number of months in age between potty breaks. 2 mos. = 2 hours between potty breaks, 6 mos. 6 hours... (to a point obviously but it's a good rule of thumb for puppies). If you follow that rule between potty breaks, you will probably not have any accidents. Our dog had one accident as a puppy. It's a lot of work at first, but it eliminates the need for even considering any kind of punishment for accidents (which you should never do).
There's an addage I love about potty training:
If your dog makes a mess in the house, take a rolled up newspaper and hit yourself in the head with it because you weren't paying enough attention. :D
Great info! Does that apply to the middle of the night though? When are puppies able to sleep through the night? Anything else that I am missing?
 

Momgoose56

Member
Okay, I HAVE to rant a little here!
A lack of taurine in dog foods is what researchers have found was causing the dilated cardiomyopathy in dogs, some even at a young age. Eggs are high in taurine, so is red algae, so are some grains. Removing grains from dog foods contributed to the problem. Barley, wheat, sorghum, rye, and corn are all grains that wild canines and foxes will eat, in the wild. They get these grains by eating the stomach contents of their prey, or by outright 'grazing' on plants. I live in the Sonoran Desert and have spent a lot of time in this desert watching the wildlife Just on my street this week, there has been 2 piles of coyote poop (scat) I looked at that contained some of the unusual plants we have growing here. One pile contained mostly mesquite "beans" or the seeds from the native Mesquite trees here. These beans grow in pods (see picture) are very high in protein, and contain tons of trace nutrients and fiber! Native Americans used the ground these dried bean and used them as a flour for 'breads' and in soups and stews. Mesquite flour is sold locally here. My dogs all eat these beans and horses LOVE them. The 'sap' surrounding the fresh beans is very sweet.

Mesquite bean and pod

The other pile of scat was almost all Hackberries, another native wild bush that grows here. See picture. Hack berries and seeds are also high in protein, vitamins and were also used by native Americans for medicinal purposes and as food.

Hackberries on bush
I've watched foxes in Colorado, eat fresh corn off the stalks and coyotes gorge themselves on watermelon and knock over sorghum stalks to get at the sorghum.
Grain and vegetables aren't the problem. The balance of these nutrients available in commercial dog foods is the problem. All of my dogs have received commercial dog foods and not one of my dogs (7 rescues-in my lifetime) died of any illness caused by a nutritional deficiency. HOWEVER-all my dogs also got high quality protein (meat and eggs), fruits and vegetables, algae and seaweed, and fish (mostly skins and fins) in limited quantities in addition to commercial dogfoods. Two dogs were killed by cars (age 10&12), one dog died from lymphatic cancer (age 7), one dog died of disseminated Valley Fever (12), one of chronic pneumonia and lung damage acquired at birth (age 4), our long-haired minI dachshund died of old age (we rescued her at estimated age 1-2, and we had her 19 years!) My current dog, (a yellow lab) is healthy except for really bad hip dysplasia (age 14 1/2) I feed her, same as I did my other dogs, a high quality, meat based commercial dog food (first 3 ingredients meat and meat meal) peas, carrots, 1/2 cup of meat (chicken, beef, game or fish) and an egg every day. She also gets dried seaweed snacks an occasional algae wafer when I feed the fish (lol!) and seasonal fruits and she loves apples.
The problem isn't commercial dog food UNLESS that's the only thing your dog ever gets.
Okay, I'm done. I hope that rant helped aquanerd14!
 

PascalKrypt

Member
aquanerd14 said:
So I have interpreted, from various sources, that dogs need to be socialized while still very young. Except of our dog is socialized with the Multise while very young, it might cause problems. What is the solution?
Take your pup to a puppy class at a dog school. Seriously, this is the easiest way to socialise your dog (and if it is a good school, you get some pro tips as well).
If you can't do this, make a point of taking your puppy to a public park or some other place where you expect other dogs to be (but don't pick a dog park for a young puppy unless it has a designated area, not everyone is in full control of their sometimes huge and less-than-friendly large dogs and a bad experience at that age can cause lifelong problems).
Btw socialisation is not just about exposing your dog to other dogs, but also to other people. Dogs can have problems with strange people just as they can with strange dogs.

Edit: Also what Momgoose56 said. All our puppies get lukewarm 'oatmeal' (it isn't oatmeal exactly, not an American product, but ground up whole grains that are used as a basis for baby food) with goat milk poured over their kibble once a day when young, up until about 6 months of age (then it becomes an ocassional treat). Other occasional treats include apple, pear, carrot, plain white rice and greek yoghurt, as well as pure beef heart and cooked, sliced beef every once in a while. Just don't feed your dog pork, or any kind of raw leek or onion-type vegetable.
 

CrazedHoosier

Member
Momgoose56 said:
Okay, I HAVE to rant a little here!
A lack of taurine in dog foods is what researchers have found was causing the dilated cardiomyopathy in dogs, some even at a young age. Eggs are high in taurine, so is red algae, so are some grains. Removing grains from dog foods contributed to the problem. Barley, wheat, sorghum, rye, and corn are all grains that wild canines and foxes will eat, in the wild. They get these grains by eating the stomach contents of their prey, or by outright 'grazing' on plants. I live in the Sonoran Desert and have spent a lot of time in this desert watching the wildlife Just on my street this week, there has been 2 piles of coyote poop (scat) I looked at that contained some of the unusual plants we have growing here. One pile contained mostly mesquite "beans" or the seeds from the native Mesquite trees here. These beans grow in pods (see picture) are very high in protein, and contain tons of trace nutrients and fiber! Native Americans used the ground these dried bean and used them as a flour for 'breads' and in soups and stews. Mesquite flour is sold locally here. My dogs all eat these beans and horses LOVE them. The 'sap' surrounding the fresh beans is very sweet.

Mesquite bean and pod

The other pile of scat was almost all Hackberries, another native wild bush that grows here. See picture. Hack berries and seeds are also high in protein, vitamins and were also used by native Americans for medicinal purposes and as food.

Hackberries on bush
I've watched foxes in Colorado, eat fresh corn off the stalks and coyotes gorge themselves on watermelon and knock over sorghum stalks to get at the sorghum.
Grain and vegetables aren't the problem. The balance of these nutrients available in commercial dog foods is the problem. All of my dogs have received commercial dog foods and not one of my dogs (7 rescues-in my lifetime) died of any illness caused by a nutritional deficiency. HOWEVER-all my dogs also got high quality protein (meat and eggs), fruits and vegetables, algae and seaweed, and fish (mostly skins and fins) in limited quantities in addition to commercial dogfoods. Two dogs were killed by cars (age 10&12), one dog died from lymphatic cancer (age 7), one dog died of disseminated Valley Fever (12), one of chronic pneumonia and lung damage acquired at birth (age 4), our long-haired minI dachshund died of old age (we rescued her at estimated age 1-2, and we had her 19 years!) My current dog, (a yellow lab) is healthy except for really bad hip dysplasia (age 14 1/2) I feed her, same as I did my other dogs, a high quality, meat based commercial dog food (first 3 ingredients meat and meat meal) peas, carrots, 1/2 cup of meat (chicken, beef, game or fish) and an egg every day. She also gets dried seaweed snacks an occasional algae wafer when I feed the fish (lol!) and seasonal fruits and she loves apples.
The problem isn't commercial dog food UNLESS that's the only thing your dog ever gets.
Okay, I'm done. I hope that rant helped aquanerd14!
Your base examples of foxes and coyotes, are a bit flawed. Foxes aren’t very closely related to dogs, and are in the genus vulpes. Coyotes are in the same genus, but aren’t a specialized predator like the gray wolf - which is where canis lupus familiaris comes from. I wouldn’t base a canis lupus diet off any other canid diet for that reason.
 

MomeWrath

Member
aquanerd14 said:
So I have interpreted, from various sources, that dogs need to be socialized while still very young. Except of our dog is socialized with the Multise while very young, it might cause problems. What is the solution?



Great info! Does that apply to the middle of the night though? When are puppies able to sleep through the night? Anything else that I am missing?
We got up during the night as well to take our dog out when he was a puppy. I am also a strong believer in crate training, but I won't go into that here as it is a very controversial subject. But the idea with the scheduled breaks is to establish the habit of going to the bathroom outdoors, such that it never really occurs to them to do it inside. Again, as PascalKrypt put it, consistency is key. Also, I meant to quote his/her post rather than the one that I did quote lol, but that one was also good.
If you have one dog already with bad manners, then the parents apply the same tactics to the new dog...yes, it will learn bad manners from its roommate. I wish you luck with your puppy. SHepherds of any kind are incredibly intelligent dogs that truly need to be "worked" and I would recommend obedience or obstacle course training/competition to keep that mind occupied. They can get really neurotic if they are bored.
 

Momgoose56

Member
PascalKrypt said:
Take your pup to a puppy class at a dog school. Seriously, this is the easiest way to socialise your dog (and if it is a good school, you get some pro tips as well).
If you can't do this, make a point of taking your puppy to a public park or some other place where you expect other dogs to be (but don't pick a dog park for a young puppy unless it has a designated area, not everyone is in full control of their sometimes huge and less-than-friendly large dogs and a bad experience at that age can cause lifelong problems).
Btw socialisation is not just about exposing your dog to other dogs, but also to other people. Dogs can have problems with strange people just as they can with strange dogs.

Edit: Also what Momgoose56 said. All our puppies get lukewarm 'oatmeal' (it isn't oatmeal exactly, not an American product, but ground up whole grains that are used as a basis for baby food) with goat milk poured over their kibble once a day when young, up until about 6 months of age (then it becomes an ocassional treat). Other occasional treats include apple, pear, carrot, plain white rice and greek yoghurt, as well as pure beef heart and cooked, sliced beef every once in a while. Just don't feed your dog pork, or any kind of raw leek or onion-type vegetable.
Oh yeah! The yogurt! Here's Mazie eating her yogurt and 'steel cut' oats this morning! My hubby always makes a half cup extra for her in the morning.
 
  • Thread Starter

Canacullus

Member
Momgoose56 said:
Okay, I HAVE to rant a little here!
A lack of taurine in dog foods is what researchers have found was causing the dilated cardiomyopathy in dogs, some even at a young age. Eggs are high in taurine, so is red algae, so are some grains. Removing grains from dog foods contributed to the problem. Barley, wheat, sorghum, rye, and corn are all grains that wild canines and foxes will eat, in the wild. They get these grains by eating the stomach contents of their prey, or by outright 'grazing' on plants. I live in the Sonoran Desert and have spent a lot of time in this desert watching the wildlife Just on my street this week, there has been 2 piles of coyote poop (scat) I looked at that contained some of the unusual plants we have growing here. One pile contained mostly mesquite "beans" or the seeds from the native Mesquite trees here. These beans grow in pods (see picture) are very high in protein, and contain tons of trace nutrients and fiber! Native Americans used the ground these dried bean and used them as a flour for 'breads' and in soups and stews. Mesquite flour is sold locally here. My dogs all eat these beans and horses LOVE them. The 'sap' surrounding the fresh beans is very sweet.

Mesquite bean and pod

The other pile of scat was almost all Hackberries, another native wild bush that grows here. See picture. Hack berries and seeds are also high in protein, vitamins and were also used by native Americans for medicinal purposes and as food.

Hackberries on bush
I've watched foxes in Colorado, eat fresh corn off the stalks and coyotes gorge themselves on watermelon and knock over sorghum stalks to get at the sorghum.
Grain and vegetables aren't the problem. The balance of these nutrients available in commercial dog foods is the problem. All of my dogs have received commercial dog foods and not one of my dogs (7 rescues-in my lifetime) died of any illness caused by a nutritional deficiency. HOWEVER-all my dogs also got high quality protein (meat and eggs), fruits and vegetables, algae and seaweed, and fish (mostly skins and fins) in limited quantities in addition to commercial dogfoods. Two dogs were killed by cars (age 10&12), one dog died from lymphatic cancer (age 7), one dog died of disseminated Valley Fever (12), one of chronic pneumonia and lung damage acquired at birth (age 4), our long-haired minI dachshund died of old age (we rescued her at estimated age 1-2, and we had her 19 years!) My current dog, (a yellow lab) is healthy except for really bad hip dysplasia (age 14 1/2) I feed her, same as I did my other dogs, a high quality, meat based commercial dog food (first 3 ingredients meat and meat meal) peas, carrots, 1/2 cup of meat (chicken, beef, game or fish) and an egg every day. She also gets dried seaweed snacks an occasional algae wafer when I feed the fish (lol!) and seasonal fruits and she loves apples.
The problem isn't commercial dog food UNLESS that's the only thing your dog ever gets.
Okay, I'm done. I hope that rant helped aquanerd14!
Thanks for the rant! It is very fascinating! I am now leaning even more towards Taste of The Wild Ancient Grains!

PascalKrypt said:
Take your pup to a puppy class at a dog school. Seriously, this is the easiest way to socialise your dog (and if it is a good school, you get some pro tips as well).
If you can't do this, make a point of taking your puppy to a public park or some other place where you expect other dogs to be (but don't pick a dog park for a young puppy unless it has a designated area, not everyone is in full control of their sometimes huge and less-than-friendly large dogs and a bad experience at that age can cause lifelong problems).
Btw socialisation is not just about exposing your dog to other dogs, but also to other people. Dogs can have problems with strange people just as they can with strange dogs.

Edit: Also what Momgoose56 said. All our puppies get lukewarm 'oatmeal' (it isn't oatmeal exactly, not an American product, but ground up whole grains that are used as a basis for baby food) with goat milk poured over their kibble once a day when young, up until about 6 months of age (then it becomes an ocassional treat). Other occasional treats include apple, pear, carrot, plain white rice and greek yoghurt, as well as pure beef heart and cooked, sliced beef every once in a while. Just don't feed your dog pork, or any kind of raw leek or onion-type vegetable.
We would prefer to not send our dog to a puppy class. Here in Oregon they are real spendy. The 'oatmeal'
idea is really good!

Magicpenny75 said:
We got up during the night as well to take our dog out when he was a puppy. I am also a strong believer in crate training, but I won't go into that here as it is a very controversial subject. But the idea with the scheduled breaks is to establish the habit of going to the bathroom outdoors, such that it never really occurs to them to do it inside. Again, as PascalKrypt put it, consistency is key. Also, I meant to quote his/her post rather than the one that I did quote lol, but that one was also good.
If you have one dog already with bad manners, then the parents apply the same tactics to the new dog...yes, it will learn bad manners from its roommate. I wish you luck with your puppy. SHepherds of any kind are incredibly intelligent dogs that truly need to be "worked" and I would recommend obedience or obstacle course training/competition to keep that mind occupied. They can get really neurotic if they are bored.
That is what I thought. I don't think my parents will mind *too* much taking it out in the middle of the night. They already understand what this is like and that it will be necessary. And yes, I know these dogs really want to help their owners and herd animals. I also understand that they are very intelligent I am looking into puzzle toys, and we will probably build an obstacle course outside.
 

PascalKrypt

Member
aquanerd14 said:
Thanks for the rant! It is very fascinating! I am now leaning even more towards Taste of The Wild Ancient Grains!



We would prefer to not send our dog to a puppy class. Here in Oregon they are real spendy. The 'oatmeal'
idea is really good!



That is what I thought. I don't think my parents will mind *too* much taking it out in the middle of the night. They already understand what this is like and that it will be necessary. And yes, I know these dogs really want to help their owners and herd animals. I also understand that they are very intelligent I am looking into puzzle toys, and we will probably build an obstacle course outside.
You could also look up tutorials on youtube about how to teach your dog to track scents and find hidden objects. My hunting dogs have a ton of fun with that, and it's actually a fun exercise for yourself to make them increasingly hard (and you don't have to spend anything).

If you find puppy classes too expensive try seeing if there are any dog clubs or facebook pages near you, that organise some meet-ups or whatever. I make a point of taking my young dogs on lots of public, busy outings before their first year, first to places like the exit of supermarkets or busy shop areas, sightseeing areas or scenic parks or a lake or pond in summer (remember a young puppy has a short attention span and will be tired from mentally challenging tasks, don't overexert it), then later to louder places like a local band playing outdoors, or a festival or something.
Personally I also take my dogs with me in public transport, train and bus, but this might not be necessary to teach them in your environment. Take them on visits to other people and other people's homes, all of these are part of socialisation too.
And car rides, take a young dog on lots of short car rides where there is something fun at the end or nothing happens at all (like a walk in a nearby park, or to pick someone up, or just drive around town for 10 minutes). Many people make the mistake of not getting their dog used to a car, then only put it in the car when the dog needs to go to the vet when it is ill or gets shots. Result: cars are terrifying.
 

Momgoose56

Member
PascalKrypt said:
You could also look up tutorials on youtube about how to teach your dog to track scents and find hidden objects. My hunting dogs have a ton of fun with that, and it's actually a fun exercise for yourself to make them increasingly hard (and you don't have to spend anything).

If you find puppy classes too expensive try seeing if there are any dog clubs or facebook pages near you, that organise some meet-ups or whatever. I make a point of taking my young dogs on lots of public, busy outings before their first year, first to places like the exit of supermarkets or busy shop areas, sightseeing areas or scenic parks or a lake or pond in summer (remember a young puppy has a short attention span and will be tired from mentally challenging tasks, don't overexert it), then later to louder places like a local band playing outdoors, or a festival or something.
Personally I also take my dogs with me in public transport, train and bus, but this might not be necessary to teach them in your environment. Take them on visits to other people and other people's homes, all of these are part of socialisation too.
And car rides, take a young dog on lots of short car rides where there is something fun at the end or nothing happens at all (like a walk in a nearby park, or to pick someone up, or just drive around town for 10 minutes). Many people make the mistake of not getting their dog used to a car, then only put it in the car when the dog needs to go to the vet when it is ill or gets shots. Result: cars are terrifying.
We have two puppys in the family, from the same litter. One gets sick (pukes) and is nervous in the car, the other one plays, sleeps and acts like it's a lark. We are hoping River gro
aquanerd14 said:
My family is getting an English Shepherd puppy in the beginning of January. Right now I am pretty confused about feeding. I want to not spend a fortune on food, but also not feed garbage. I know most of the big bags of dry food are fully of starchy fillers, and the ones that aren't cost a fortune. I am wondering if there are any dry foods that are good, or even wet food. Or would it just be better to feed it raw vegetables and meats? I like this idea, but my mom does not wan't to have to cook for more members of the family.

Now for training. I understand that their goal is to help and please their owner(s). We will be getting it at 12 weeks old, about the time it becomes 'adolescent'. This is when they establish who is the leader of the pack and who are followers, so I know rough play is not advised until week 16 or 18. I think what I will do for the first several days is just let it roam the house and kinda follow it around, disciplining it based on what it does. I will not start actual training sessions until ~week 13. I think for training it to go outside we have a decent plan. If it poops in the house, we rub it's nose in it. My parents have experience doing this, and they say it works real fast. Any suggestions?

Once it becomes time for actual training sessions, I will just do it for like 30 seconds at a time throughout the day.
Rubbing dogs nose in it's own waste only teaches the dog to mistrust and fear the abuser. Raise a dog as you would a child. Limit it's areas of access in the house at first. Even a puppy won't poop and pee where it eats and sleeps. As it gets older, expand the areas it is allowed to explore. Make every part of the house a place that the puppy can eat and sleep, snack rewards everywhere, for coming when called, for 'look'ing at you when you say it, and for taking naps. If you gradually expand its territory, then nowhere in the house is a place that's okay to relieve him/herself. When you first get a new pup, take it out every hour (until you know how long he can go without peeing) and give it a command to "potty" or whatever word you choose-and TIME to do it. Then a reward (happy praise, a treat, a little fun play) for doing the deed. If he doesn't 'potty' repeat in another hour. Be patient! A well trained dog will be confident, know what you expect of him, and know what to expect from you. It takes a lot longer to train a good dog than to cycle an aquarium lol!
 

PascalKrypt

Member
Momgoose56 said:
We have two puppys in the family, from the same litter. One gets sick (pukes) and is nervous in the car, the other one plays, sleeps and acts like it's a lark. We are hoping River gro
Think your message got cut off there?

Naturally individual dog personality makes a difference, but good upbringing and exposure also helps. Though indeed it can only get you so far. Even with doing all this, we still have one dog (out of 6) that hates riding in a car, but she tolerates it - up to about an hour - and gets in the car willingly every time.
Two of them drive with me to Austria and back twice a year, an 11 hour straight trip that they have no issues with whatsoever. Then a couple years back I got involved in the breed club of my small dog and the subject of car rides came up and all of the members were talking about what pills they fed to their dogs to prevent it puking in the car for a 20 minute trip... they were convinced it was a breed-related thing. We have had a total of eight dogs of this breed, and none of them had car sickness or hated riding in it. You can have bad luck and not everything is preventable, but the right preparations can go a long way in skewing the odds in your favour.
 

Momgoose56

Member
CrazedHoosier said:
Your base examples of foxes and coyotes, are a bit flawed. Foxes aren’t very closely related to dogs, and are in the genus vulpes. Coyotes are in the same genus, but aren’t a specialized predator like the gray wolf - which is where canis lupus familiaris comes from. I wouldn’t base a canis lupus diet off any other canid diet for that reason.
My "base examples" CrazedHoosier are regarding what animals, that are primarily carnivores, eat besides meat. It has nothing to do with the genus or species of carnivore. It has to do with meeting nutritional needs if a variety of foods are available. There is no shortage of prey animals out here this year. We have an over abundance of jack rabbits, cotton tails, rats, mice, gambel quail, doves etc. But the coyotes are eating berries and seeds. Why is that? Just like any human child, if the only thing available is candy, the child will eat candy and ultimately suffer for it. But research has shown that if a wide variety of quality foods are available along with the candy, the child will eat a balanced diet. You've heard the phrase "eat like a child"? I believe the same applies to domestic carnivores-eat like a fox, or wolf or coyote. Is there a problem with that CrazedHoosier? My point is, there is nothing wrong with feeding domestic canines a quality commercial dog food as long as a variety of other quality foods are offered as well. As recent events have shown, we humans, in our desire to make our canine companions more 'human' don't always make the best choices for them and would do well to let them make more choices (at least as far as their diet goes) for themselves. My dogs were not forced to eat carrots, or cooked pumpkin, or squash or apples etc. They are offered those foods. If they like them and eat them, those foods are made available fairly regularly. My dogs have always snacked on mesquite beans and occasionally on hackberries and I've even seen them (rarely) eating the leaves of those bushes.
 

PascalKrypt

Member
Momgoose56 said:
My "base examples" CrazedHoosier are regarding what animals, that are primarily carnivores, eat besides meat. It has nothing to do with the genus or species of carnivore. It has to do with meeting nutritional needs if a variety of foods are available. There is no shortage of prey animals out here this year. We have an over abundance of jack rabbits, cotton tails, rats, mice, gambel quail, doves etc. But the coyotes are eating berries and seeds. Why is that? Just like any human child, if the only thing available is candy, the child will eat candy and ultimately suffer for it. But research has shown that if a wide variety of quality foods are available along with the candy, the child will eat a balanced diet. You've heard the phrase "eat like a child"? I believe the same applies to domestic carnivores-eat like a fox, or wolf or coyote. Is there a problem with that CrazedHoosier? My point is, there is nothing wrong with feeding domestic canines a quality commercial dog food as long as a variety of other quality foods are offered as well. As recent events have shown, we humans, in our desire to make our canine companions more 'human' don't always make the best choices for them and would do well to let them make more choices (at least as far as their diet goes) for themselves. My dogs were not forced to eat carrots, or cooked pumpkin, or squash or apples etc. They are offered those foods. If they like them and eat them, those foods are made available fairly regularly. My dogs have always snacked on mesquite beans and occasionally on hackberries and I've even seen them (rarely) eating the leaves of those bushes.
Oh I think it would hugely surprising to people how much plant matter dogs choose to eat naturally. Our dogs roam outside freely (large, fenced in area with varied vegetation) and they eat loads of stuff including plants (grass blades from a particular plant) and dirt (they eat dirt in a particular spot in a particular season, we *think* they are consuming ant eggs but not 100% sure) as well as, in the summer and fall, a huge assortment of berries. They go so far as to pluck the apples from the apple trees, and sniff out the ripe ones. Same with berries, they sniff out which ones are ripe and pluck raspberries, blackberries, redcurrant and blackcurrant right off the brambles.
They also eat acorns and even crack the walnut husks that have fallen off our two walnut trees to get to the nuts. I presume they also eat our hazelnuts but I've never caught them at it.

... naturally they also prey on and catch young birds in our yard as well as mice. But those are pretty high effort compared to the sweet berries, I'm guessing. Pretty sure that their digestive tracts are well adapted to a very varied diet. The grass blades seem to be eaten as an alternative to fiber, to help with digestion (if they feel sick, they will eat huge amounts of them on purpose to throw up).
 

Momgoose56

Member
PascalKrypt said:
Think your message got cut off there?

Naturally individual dog personality makes a difference, but good upbringing and exposure also helps. Though indeed it can only get you so far. Even with doing all this, we still have one dog (out of 6) that hates riding in a car, but she tolerates it - up to about an hour - and gets in the car willingly every time.
Two of them drive with me to Austria and back twice a year, an 11 hour straight trip that they have no issues with whatsoever. Then a couple years back I got involved in the breed club of my small dog and the subject of car rides came up and all of the members were talking about what pills they fed to their dogs to prevent it puking in the car for a 20 minute trip... they were convinced it was a breed-related thing. We have had a total of eight dogs of this breed, and none of them had car sickness or hated riding in it. You can have bad luck and not everything is preventable, but the right preparations can go a long way in skewing the odds in your favour.
I totally agree. The pup in question has had, so far, an identical upbringing as the other one but gets sick in the car. So far, we've NOT resorted to medication to treat it but rather prepare him for even short trips by planning ahead, withholding food for 4 hours before a trip and water for an hour. He does much better with an empty stomach! We also bring along familiar objects-a blanket, a toy, the other dog--a large calm fox hound. My daughter drives him around the corner, to a neighbor with a lawn and dog pool he loves to visit, rather than walking out the back door and across the bridge to get there. He is doing much better. He now at least will walk up to the car (and not run and hide) and allow us to lift him in, and he's not drooling and shaking any more during the ride. He's only rarely 'losing his cookies' now at 16 weeks, so we're hoping he'll eventually, at least get to where he's not totally uncomfortable in the car. Patience, preparation as you said, and a little calm distraction go a long way.
 

PascalKrypt

Member
Momgoose56 said:
I totally agree. The pup in question has had, so far, an identical upbringing as the other one but gets sick in the car. So far, we've NOT resorted to medication to treat it but rather prepare him for even short trips by planning ahead, withholding food for 4 hours before a trip and water for an hour. He does much better with an empty stomach! We also bring along familiar objects-a blanket, a toy, the other dog--a large calm fox hound. My daughter drives him around the corner, to a neighbor with a lawn and dog pool he loves to visit, rather than walking out the back door and across the bridge to get there. He is doing much better. He now at least will walk up to the car (and not run and hide) and allow us to lift him in, and he's not drooling and shaking any more during the ride. He's only rarely 'losing his cookies' now at 16 weeks, so we're hoping he'll eventually, at least get to where he's not totally uncomfortable in the car. Patience, preparation as you said, and a little calm distraction go a long way.
Sounds like you are giving it your all!
Yes, that sounds a lot like our girl that hates rides (she is now 2.5 years old). We picked her up in a storm when she puppy and she puked her guts out in the car, that seems to have imprinted her hatred (if it wasn't in her character naturally). The first few months it was 5-10 minutes rides down the lane only, and like you said on an empty stomach or she would throw up in the car. It took nearly the whole first year for it to be completely normalised so don't get discouraged. She'll still be a bit uneasy off the main roads and she demands to lay in the same place (trunk, stretched out against the back), if she can't lay like that she'll be very restless and she refuses to even get near the back door. Only the trunk.
But she very happily walks to the trunk since rides are always to good places. It's just the ride there that she has to put up with, haha.
 

Momgoose56

Member
Thought you might be interested
 

LeahsTank

Member
aquanerd14 said:
My family is getting an English Shepherd puppy in the beginning of January. Right now I am pretty confused about feeding. I want to not spend a fortune on food, but also not feed garbage. I know most of the big bags of dry food are fully of starchy fillers, and the ones that aren't cost a fortune. I am wondering if there are any dry foods that are good, or even wet food. Or would it just be better to feed it raw vegetables and meats? I like this idea, but my mom does not wan't to have to cook for more members of the family.

Now for training. I understand that their goal is to help and please their owner(s). We will be getting it at 12 weeks old, about the time it becomes 'adolescent'. This is when they establish who is the leader of the pack and who are followers, so I know rough play is not advised until week 16 or 18. I think what I will do for the first several days is just let it roam the house and kinda follow it around, disciplining it based on what it does. I will not start actual training sessions until ~week 13. I think for training it to go outside we have a decent plan. If it poops in the house, we rub it's nose in it. My parents have experience doing this, and they say it works real fast. Any suggestions?

Once it becomes time for actual training sessions, I will just do it for like 30 seconds at a time throughout the day.
If it poops or pees in the house, you should rub your own nose in it. The puppy can’t get outside on his own. It is never the puppy’s fault. Never!

Crate the puppy. Dogs by nature, will choose not to sit in their own waste. Let him out to eat and play. Before and after each eat and play session, he goes out to pee. When he does his business, praise him as if he just dug up a gold nugget for you. If he has an accident inside, chalk it up to the fact that you should’ve gotten him out sooner. If you catch him in the act, yell loudly to startle him, then quickly get him outside to finish. Accidents will happen, but if the puppy has very little opportunity to go inside, he will never choose to go inside. The more he uses your house as a toilet, the more inclined he will be to do it again.

Please. Never punish your puppy for an accident. If you punish him when you find pee/poop, he will try to hide it. And that is the last thing you want. Only correct when he is caught in the act. He will then associate the act of peeing in the house as bad. Not the “product.”

Sorry. I’ll climb off my soapbox now.
 
  • Thread Starter

Canacullus

Member
Guys I scrapped the rub the nose in poop idea days ago. The reason my parents and their families did it was because they had doggy doors, so the dogs could go outside whenever. We met with the breeder today and saw the puppies and the mom. We talked to her for a bit about training, however I was not really paying attention to the conversation (puppies are kinda distracting), but I caught bits of it. For example, she said she lets the dog play bite (which is fine) but if it hurts, she physically disciplines it. Her dogs are 100% outside, so she does 0 potty training on them. So for the house training, we just take the dog out every three hours, even in the middle of the night. How do we know it can hold it all night? The puppy will be 12 weeks old when we get it. Also, LeahsTank, what I am interpreting from your post is to keep it crated up all day except for meal times and bathroom breaks? An more suggestions on food?
 

LeahsTank

Member
aquanerd14 said:
Guys I scrapped the rub the nose in poop idea days ago. The reason my parents and their families did it was because they had doggy doors, so the dogs could go outside whenever. We met with the breeder today and saw the puppies and the mom. We talked to her for a bit about training, however I was not really paying attention to the conversation (puppies are kinda distracting), but I caught bits of it. For example, she said she lets the dog play bite (which is fine) but if it hurts, she physically disciplines it. Her dogs are 100% outside, so she does 0 potty training on them. So for the house training, we just take the dog out every three hours, even in the middle of the night. How do we know it can hold it all night? The puppy will be 12 weeks old when we get it. Also, LeahsTank, what I am interpreting from your post is to keep it crated up all day except for meal times and bathroom breaks? An more suggestions on food?
I was told that a puppy can hold his bladder 1 hour for every month of age up to 8-10 months/hours. So a 3 month old puppy should be able to hold it for about 3 hours. And yes, crate the puppy at all times unless he is eating, going potty, or you are actually playing and interacting with him. Much like a toddler, if you can’t watch him, you need to make sure he isn’t getting into trouble. As long as the crate is in an area of the house where he can be a part of the goings on, he will be fine.

My dog’s breeder recommended Diamond Naturals food. Not the regular Diamond, but make sure it is the Diamond Naturals. When I get my next dog, I think I will try to feed it raw meats.

FYI, Buy chicken necks for your dog as treats. They’re cheap and will help scale his teeth and keep them clean. As long as it is raw, the bones will not harm him. Cooked bones though, are VERY dangerous.

good luck! Puppies are so much fun and will be your best friend for a very long time.

Here is a link to the AKC’s guide to houstrsining. Lots of good information...

edit to add... we’re gonna need to see those puppy pictures soon.
 
  • Thread Starter

Canacullus

Member
We are getting the puppy the first week of January. A new year with a new family member! Thank you all so much. I think I have the training thing mostly down.
 

JustAFishServant

Member
Wait...I thought Fishlore was only fish!! Since when could you post about other animals? And where?
 

PascalKrypt

Member
JustAFishServant said:
Wait...I thought Fishlore was only fish!! Since when could you post about other animals? And where?
If you look above the thread at the top of this page, between the title and the top post you can see the location of the thread on the forum.
It says ... -> our other pets -> dogs.
Clicking on any of these categories takes you to the respective subforum.
 
  • Thread Starter

Canacullus

Member
My parents are against the crate training method someone suggested earlier, they don't want it crated all day. It will sleep in the crate at night until it is house trained though. Any suggestions for doing it this way?
 

LeahsTank

Member
aquanerd14 said:
My parents are against the crate training method someone suggested earlier, they don't want it crated all day. It will sleep in the crate at night until it is house trained though. Any suggestions for doing it this way?
if they are completely against crate training, then use a leash and keep him tethered to a person all day. Otherwise, I would suggest just getting a cat.
 

DoubleDutch

Member
aquanerd14 said:
My parents are against the crate training method someone suggested earlier, they don't want it crated all day. It will sleep in the crate at night until it is house trained though. Any suggestions for doing it this way?
Simply make it its Safe Haven and close it when you'll leave the house or go to bed.
 

Momgoose56

Member
aquanerd14 said:
Guys I scrapped the rub the nose in poop idea days ago. The reason my parents and their families did it was because they had doggy doors, so the dogs could go outside whenever. We met with the breeder today and saw the puppies and the mom. We talked to her for a bit about training, however I was not really paying attention to the conversation (puppies are kinda distracting), but I caught bits of it. For example, she said she lets the dog play bite (which is fine) but if it hurts, she physically disciplines it. Her dogs are 100% outside, so she does 0 potty training on them. So for the house training, we just take the dog out every three hours, even in the middle of the night. How do we know it can hold it all night? The puppy will be 12 weeks old when we get it. Also, LeahsTank, what I am interpreting from your post is to keep it crated up all day except for meal times and bathroom breaks? An more suggestions on food?
NO! You ABSOLUTELY should NOT keep a puppy crated all day! That's cruelty too! I was a training assistant and trained ALL my dogs including the 7 rescues I've had AND my physical service dog. A 12 week old puppy that has never had any house training done will need to go out more often, at first, than every three hours until you know how long it can hold it's urine. It has never been expected to do that. So not only is his behavior untrained, his bladder is untrained as well! If you walked around and could urinate anytime the urge even slightly hit you, your bladder capacity would be very small too. Take the puppy out every hour at first. Keep the pup with you, on a leash or get gates and keep him in a confined area that is tiled or where urine won't damage anything.
Crate training is extremely useful and a crate should be a place your dog feels comfortable and safe. However, it needs to be done right or a crate can become a nightmare for you AND the dog. A crate should not be used as a 'holding cell' because it's inconvenient for you to pay attention to the puppys needs. And crating a dog should NEVER be used as a punishment. If you are home, a new puppy should be with you, on a leash or confined in the room within eyesight or within hearing all the time. Get the puppy used to being in the crate, getting treats and playing in the crate and spending gradually longer periods in it before you ever lock him in it overnight or for extended periods.
We start by confining the pups to one end of a tiled hall with gates and an open crate with their bed and some toys (including a chew toy) in it. They willingly sleep in it at night but are not confined in it at first. See picture-I am puppy sitting one of the 12 week old pups and don't have his crate but the bed is where his crate usually sits.

He usually sleeps there but because he now knows that he can ask to go out to relive himself, and he is having no accidents in his 'privelege' areas, he gets to sleep in my room at night (a brand new 'privelege' starting tonight)-we'll see how it goes:

During the day, the pups are confined to a large tiled family room with a door to outside. We have gates EVERYWHERE.



Once a new dog or puppy has expanded his privelege areas throughout the house and no longer has accidents, the gates come down. I have never had to confine any of my many dogs in a crate at night or during the day when I was at work. They were all crate trained, but unless I was traveling, they just used the crate as a 'den' and a bed.
 

LeahsTank

Member
Momgoose56 said:
NO! You ABSOLUTELY should NOT keep a puppy crated all day! That's cruelty too! I was a training assistant and trained ALL my dogs including the 7 rescues I've had AND my physical service dog. A 12 week old puppy that has never had any house training done will need to go out more often, at first, than every three hours until you know how long it can hold it's urine. It has never been expected to do that. So not only is his behavior untrained, his bladder is untrained as well! If you walked around and could urinate anytime the urge even slightly hit you, your bladder capacity would be very small too. Take the puppy out every hour at first. Keep the pup with you, on a leash or get gates and keep him in a confined area that is tiled or where urine won't damage anything.
Crate training is extremely useful and a crate should be a place your dog feels comfortable and safe. However, it needs to be done right or a crate can become a nightmare for you AND the dog. A crate should not be used as a 'holding cell' because it's inconvenient for you to pay attention to the puppys needs. And crating a dog should NEVER be used as a punishment. If you are home, a new puppy should be with you, on a leash or confined in the room within eyesight or within hearing all the time. Get the puppy used to being in the crate, getting treats and playing in the crate and spending gradually longer periods in it before you ever lock him in it overnight or for extended periods.
We start by confining the pups to one end of a tiled hall with gates and an open crate with their bed and some toys (including a chew toy) in it. They willingly sleep in it at night but are not confined in it at first. See picture-I am puppy sitting one of the 12 week old pups and don't have his crate but the bed is where his crate usually sits.

He usually sleeps there but because he now knows that he can ask to go out to relive himself, and he is having no accidents in his 'privelege' areas, he gets to sleep in my room at night (a brand new 'privelege' starting tonight)-we'll see how it goes:

During the day, the pups are confined to a large tiled family room with a door to outside. We have gates EVERYWHERE.



Once a new dog or puppy has expanded his privelege areas throughout the house and no longer has accidents, the gates come down. I have never had to confine any of my many dogs in a crate at night or during the day when I was at work. They were all crate trained, but unless I was traveling, they just used the crate as a 'den' and a bed.
I agree with everything you said. When I say crate them all day, I mean when they are not eating, and playing, and interacting with the family. But, if a puppy’s time in a crate is “excessive,” that means the owners are not spending enough time with it... therefore, they need to get a cat, instead.
 
  • Thread Starter

Canacullus

Member
Momgoose56 said:
NO! You ABSOLUTELY should NOT keep a puppy crated all day! That's cruelty too! I was a training assistant and trained ALL my dogs including the 7 rescues I've had AND my physical service dog. A 12 week old puppy that has never had any house training done will need to go out more often, at first, than every three hours until you know how long it can hold it's urine. It has never been expected to do that. So not only is his behavior untrained, his bladder is untrained as well! If you walked around and could urinate anytime the urge even slightly hit you, your bladder capacity would be very small too. Take the puppy out every hour at first. Keep the pup with you, on a leash or get gates and keep him in a confined area that is tiled or where urine won't damage anything.
Crate training is extremely useful and a crate should be a place your dog feels comfortable and safe. However, it needs to be done right or a crate can become a nightmare for you AND the dog. A crate should not be used as a 'holding cell' because it's inconvenient for you to pay attention to the puppys needs. And crating a dog should NEVER be used as a punishment. If you are home, a new puppy should be with you, on a leash or confined in the room within eyesight or within hearing all the time. Get the puppy used to being in the crate, getting treats and playing in the crate and spending gradually longer periods in it before you ever lock him in it overnight or for extended periods.
We start by confining the pups to one end of a tiled hall with gates and an open crate with their bed and some toys (including a chew toy) in it. They willingly sleep in it at night but are not confined in it at first. See picture-I am puppy sitting one of the 12 week old pups and don't have his crate but the bed is where his crate usually sits.

He usually sleeps there but because he now knows that he can ask to go out to relive himself, and he is having no accidents in his 'privelege' areas, he gets to sleep in my room at night (a brand new 'privelege' starting tonight)-we'll see how it goes:

During the day, the pups are confined to a large tiled family room with a door to outside. We have gates EVERYWHERE.



Once a new dog or puppy has expanded his privelege areas throughout the house and no longer has accidents, the gates come down. I have never had to confine any of my many dogs in a crate at night or during the day when I was at work. They were all crate trained, but unless I was traveling, they just used the crate as a 'den' and a bed.
Makes sense. We are unable to put gates everywhere. So the crate will stay in the great room where everybody hangs out. When we give it treats, the treats will go in the kennel. One it is hanging out in the kennel and napping there, we can put it in the bedroom where it will be sleeping normally. What if the puppy takes a while to get used to the crate? We can't have it wandering the house at night. Should we keep it in a bedroom that has the door closed?
 
  • Thread Starter

Canacullus

Member
We have been watching Brandon McMillan's show 'Lucky Dog' and I got his dog training book from the library. My family all really likes his style and techniques, so I think that is the way it will be trained. Thanks yall for the helpful tips.
 

PascalKrypt

Member
aquanerd14 said:
We have been watching Brandon McMillan's show 'Lucky Dog' and I got his dog training book from the library. My family all really likes his style and techniques, so I think that is the way it will be trained. Thanks yall for the helpful tips.
I looked him up and watched some videos, seems like a good choice!
 
  • Thread Starter

Canacullus

Member
Well we have had the puppy since last Friday. She is so beautiful. I will post some pics ASAP. She is also super smart. She learned the ’sit’ command within 24 hours. She hardly ever barks and is super chill. She spends at least have the day laying on the ground and sleeping. When it comes to playtime though, she is really fun. We are getting close to finishing house training.
 

LeahsTank

Member
aquanerd14 said:
Well we have had the puppy since last Friday. She is so beautiful. I will post some pics ASAP. She is also super smart. She learned the ’sit’ command within 24 hours. She hardly ever barks and is super chill. She spends at least have the day laying on the ground and sleeping. When it comes to playtime though, she is really fun. We are getting close to finishing house training.
I need to see puppy photos!
 
  • Thread Starter

Canacullus

Member
This is Remi. She is 14 weeks and weighs ~16 pounds.
 

LeahsTank

Member
aquanerd14 said:
This is Remi. She is 14 weeks and weighs ~16 pounds.
Oh my gosh! How cute is she?!
 

lesley

Member
Aww she is beautiful!
 
  • Thread Starter

Canacullus

Member
Here she is a few months later. She has grown quite a bit.
 

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