German Blue Ram Wigglers Die Before Free Swimming

Hello,

I have had several spawns from my German Blue Rams (Thanks coralbandit for the beautiful ,healthy fish with fantastic size and color - 1 pair is spawning like clockwork every 7 Days (the other ones spawned once in gravel and I will let them try 3 times before attempting to take the eggs), but the wigglers never make it into the free swimming state. I started following AquaticJ's Ram Guide and tried so far
- 1L white Plastic container in 55Gal Tank (LED Light on) with RO Water and Air Stone at 84 Degrees , 1ml peroxide per Gal. = (well over 90% Eggs hatch in approx 48hrs , Most Wigglers survive 48 hrs (some 72-96hrs) then die (even the 96hr wigglers were not free swimming
- 5 Gal Tank filled with 2 Gal Tap Water (No light) (PH7.0 / no Nitrate/Nitrite or Ammonia) and HOB with pre-sponge set to very low Flow, 1ml peroxide per Gal. = (over 95% Eggs hatch in approx 48hrs , Wigglers survive 48-60 hrs then die
- 1L white Plastic container in 55Gal Tank (LED Light on) with Tank Water (same as fish spawned in) and Air Stone at 84 Degrees , 1ml per Gal. peroxide per Gal. = (approx. 70% of Eggs hatch in approx 48hrs , Wigglers survive only 24 hrs then die

I have taken 3 x half spawns (let them begin on one stone, half way through take stone and replace with very similar stone) and they continued to spawn on the second stone. Fish ate all the eggs after guarding them for approx. 36-48hrs , believe right before or after they hatched.

Are there any more suggestions on what to try, or just continue to play with Air amount/Height of Airstone and Temperature when hatching the eggs? It looked like results between Tab Water and RO were similar. I took another batch this week, again with 1 Liter Plastic , Tap Water , Peroxide but this time switched off the light assuming the light could have caused issues before. Any additional Tip would be appreciated.

 

why do you use Reverse Osmosis water? I breed rams, and really, you should just you your aquariums water. the matured water with all the microbes is what you need for a healthy system. Also, throw in some indian almond leaves to combat fungus. I also want to add, that I normally just leave the eggs with the adults now. I've gotten good results both leaving and removing the eggs.

 

Pierre O
As mentioned by DutchAquarium you have a lot going on.
coralbandit the "Ram" Guru IMHO will be along.

Good Luck!

 

Thanks for the replies and I am glad to hear that leaving the eggs with your fish works out for you. To your questions/comments.
As you can see above, I tried Tank Water, RO and Tap Water. RO was recommended in the Ram Guide written by AquaticJ (most likely because Tap Water did not work for him), but I wanted to give it a try since Tap Water did not work during my attempt. My Tank has a lot of Driftwood and Almond leaves, which I tried as well with the same results. In addition, I have left 1 complete and 3 partial spawns with the parents and all eggs were eaten before or right after eggs hatched. My second pair spawned and did the same, therefore I was trying the artificial way. Since the wigglers never made it into the free swimming state, feeding or cleaning routines can be ignored in my opinion. Unless you (more experienced) breeder suggest continuing the same routine and there might be chances that egg quality are substantially different from batch to batch , I wanted to see if I should try something different. Just did not make much sense to me to continue the same without some adjustments to the process. DutchAquarium Is your recommendation to leave the peroxide out and just rely on Tannins against fungus on the eggs? FYI - I am stopping to add Peroxide as soon as first wigglers hatch.

 

Hey Pierre !
I would want to know the TDS of the water the fish spawn in . From my understanding after the eggs get fertilized water does not really matter much . I do try to keep it the same always while raising fry but the need for special water is basically to get fertile eggs . So if your eggs hatch then you should not be changing the parameters [I only test TDS] from the tanks value .
How much are you circulating air for the eggs . I have seen too many people putting the air right on the eggs .That is completely unnecessary and IMO a problem ..After the eggs hatch are they allowed to rest in hatching tank or are they still circulating in bubbles ? Once eggs hatch I pull the airstone [which was on other side of my hatching container from eggs ] all the way up near the top of the hatching tank . This keeps water oxygenated but not circulating and cause the fry distress.
Need t

 

I still have to get me a TDS Meter and only have GH (90) and KH (2) "I test very infrequently for these". PH is 6.7-6.8 and Nitrate usually between 5-15ppm. I indeed used very strong flow from my airstone right over the eggs, pulling the airstone up to about half after they hatched, but due to the small container size (Round tall 1L measurement Cup basically) there is still a lot of turbulence in it. The Trial in 5Gal Tank with HOB "even though adjusted to lowest setting" might have had the same problem. I lowered the air and moved the airstone in current container just now. I also set-up an airstone instead of the HOB in the 5 Gal and might try that that instead of the 1L if the Rams spawn again next week. (hopefully). Will try again with tank water after that if the other 2 options don't work. Thanks coralbandit DutchAquarium for the feedback

 

If you would like, by all means try your tap and only tannins to keep off fungus, your hatch rate will plummet. Coralbandit uses the same technique of RO water, only difference is he uses meth Blue instead of hydrogen peroxide. My guide will steer you in the right direction, I can promise you that.

Clearly a 95% hatch rate means you’re creating a superb environment, and I would not change it. Address the next step, keeping the fry alive. As coralbandit said, try lowering the air flow. You could pull it up like he said, or at this time is when my little sponge filter usually goes in. The flow is then directed to the top and the water level is also right above it, this creates very gentle flow.

Here’s the black/blue crossed frys tank

 

Thank you Sir. Without your guide (and Coralbandits Fish) I probably would have struggled getting this far, definitely appreciated having all Tips and Requirements in one spot. I will try all your recommendations and report success or failure. I will continue using peroxide, especially with using tank water. I realized during the last tank water trial (even though my water looks pretty much crystal clean) that there is tiny debris floating around and attaching itself to the eggs. Without the parents cleaning this off, I can see fungus would build up quickly. I do have one more questions to AquaticJ and coralbandit . Are you guys introducing fresh strains into your selected breeds after a few generations or just generally pick the strongest and continue with those over and over?

 

I pick best and keep breeding the fish I have . I pull breeders from same fish I sell every year .
In 7 years I have outcrossed from my originals 3 times now .
It is tough to find good unrelated fish .
I have to say with every time I add a new line [Yunites was my first out cross ,then rams from Kansas ,then ram from Israel ] I find a new genetic defect . Yunites had the Iridovirus IMO, the Kansas rams were real good with moderate fin defects and the Israel rams have short bodies like balloons and more fin deformities ...
It is important to keep the best and pull the odd ones from your breeding selling stock .
I understand when new breeders keep most fish , but myself bad ventral fins are the end of the show for rams in my fish room .
I only keep and sell the best that I can breed and raise .

 

I can see fungus would build up quickly.

coralbandit
Just checking - Don't you use a few drops of Meth Blue to combat fungus on the eggs?

 

Mine have been crossed with coralbandit’s and the same line that he got from Israel, I can imagine we’ll swap again and he can use my line too. But the whole point of culling in the first place is to get those defects out of the line, otherwise you’re usually fine. This would be quite a while down the road until you’d have to think about this. And as Tom said, it’s tough to find good ones, I don’t trust most people’s fish, I’ve seen way too much. With his I didn’t quarantine them because I knew it wasn’t necessary. But I don’t think I’d do that with anyone elses Rams.

jmaldo yeah he uses meth blue, I use peroxide, same results. I tend to spill things so I stay away from meth blue.

 

That makes sense. I figured that besides the visual/obvious trades you could accidentally promote other unwanted characteristics/weaknesses you won't see but later in the fishes lives while you already have chosen that line to breed further, but based on your feedback that is not of concern or can be corrected by good culling practice to promote only the best trades to breed further. (and most likely good documentation of lines chosen). Thanks a bunch. Obviously I am a decade (or more if I don't get the wigglers to survive) away from worrying about that - It's my understanding free swimming to 6 weeks old is the most critical phase and I can't even make it through the easier one. I will stay on it though and am sure by fine adjustments from previous mistakes will get there.

 

I used the peroxide on last couple batches .1ml per large dip and pour 2x a day till wigglers .
It is easier and no need to remove water to get rid of the MB. When I use MB it is1 drop max to a large dip and pour and that may last through hatching .
If you use MB you need to remove it as soon as eggs become wigglers.
The toughest time is free swimming to 14 days .
In most cases if you keep ram fry alive 14 days you are out of the real tough time .
At 6 weeks you should be looking at your final count if you can keep them in a large enough tank as they grow.
Buy 4 months if you have a good sized batch survive you need a 40b minimum for them .

 

I used the peroxide on last couple batches .1ml per large dip and pour 2x a day till wigglers .
It is easier and no need to remove water to get rid of the MB. When I use MB it is1 drop max to a large dip and pour and that may last through hatching .
If you use MB you need to remove it as soon as eggs become wigglers.
The toughest time is free swimming to 14 days .
In most cases if you keep ram fry alive 14 days you are out of the real tough time .
At 6 weeks you should be looking at your final count if you can keep them in a large enough tank as they grow.
Buy 4 months if you have a good sized batch survive you need a 40b minimum for them .

Didn’t know you tried it! I agree, much easier and breaks down on its own.


Be mindful not to add your sponge filter while using the peroxide, you will knock your bacteria out, I made that mistake my first time.

 

Wigglers hatched (have about 70-80). I had substantial amount of fungus on the stone on remaining eggs when I came home. Not sure if I messed up the dosing of peroxide or less air did promote it, but believe I had at least 25-35 eggs left on the stone this time. (all white though and I might have pulled the stone to early from the tank before the male could fertilize all - was 10pm and light went off). Using Air Stone running on surface "as suggested" in the 5 Gal with dechlorinated tap water. We'll see how it goes this time. Next trial would be with Tank Water and same air set-up if this is not successful. Did you guys ever had Ram Pairs switch females? Weirdest thing, but for some reason did the females change corners today (males stayed in their territory) and instead of pushing the females away, they both get along with the other female now.....

Thanks for letting me know about the sponge filter. Peroxide should be broken down after 24-36hrs, so I should be fine adding it tomorrow afternoon - would you suggest to wait till they are free swimming? (which might not be that much longer then 36-48hrs I assume)

 

Wigglers hatched (have about 70-80). I had substantial amount of fungus on the stone on remaining eggs when I came home. Not sure if I messed up the dosing of peroxide or less air did promote it, but believe I had at least 25-35 eggs left on the stone this time. (all white though and I might have pulled the stone to early from the tank before the male could fertilize all - was 10pm and light went off). Using Air Stone running on surface "as suggested" in the 5 Gal with dechlorinated tap water. We'll see how it goes this time. Next trial would be with Tank Water and same air set-up if this is not successful. Did you guys ever had Ram Pairs switch females? Weirdest thing, but for some reason did the females change corners today (males stayed in their territory) and instead of pushing the females away, they both get along with the other female now.....

Thanks for letting me know about the sponge filter. Peroxide should be broken down after 24-36hrs, so I should be fine adding it tomorrow afternoon - would you suggest to wait till they are free swimming? (which might not be that much longer then 36-48hrs I assume)

Yeah no rush on sponge filter, you won’t have readable ammonia until you start feeding them and they grow, which is when theyre free swimming

 

I can confirm, my Rams are not swingers . Both females back in their corners as of this afternoon. Wigglers clustered up into 5-6 bunches. I see some movement, but they are for sure not darting around. Tested Ammonia and Nitrite just to be sure and all is well (I got some debris from the spawning stone I just can't get out). They are sitting in clusters (just wiggling every once in a while). Is this normal? This is exactly what I had seen the last few times before they all died the next day. (See attached 2 examples) "Sorry for the bad pictures, difficult to focus"

 

All good like that .
They should be like that for same amount of time it took to hatch . Then they will start to free swim .

 

Yes they’re attached via egg sac/after birth idk what to call it. Awesome!!

 

At this point in time they are still all sitting like shown in Sat pictures on the bottom. I see a few wiggling slowly around the floor. This usually has been the day I have lost them all in the past, so curious to see what happens. (I can tell one difference already, the last couple times those clusters were broken up due to the water or air flow, which then could have caused the issue with fry dying if they are naturally attached with the egg sacks I guess). With the adjustments you guys suggested this is not the case, so I am hopeful. Saturday I was reporting my Rams are not swingers, but as it seems, the smaller female not frequently laying, put eggs in the gravel and the "wrong" male fertilized them. This is the second time she laid and even though there are stones right beside the spot, this is the second time she dropped eggs into the gravel. Aren't Rams normally bonding with a female and not switching unless the other female is gone? It seems the other female is getting ready to drop eggs today or tomorrow and as it seems changed the male as well. Thanks for all the help so far, I feel I am making Progress this time.

 

I have seen most pairs stay together but I guess if one male is really alpha over the other then he may try to be a mate to more females .

 

I see, I will continue to have an eye on that playboy. Whohoo - as of this afternoon there are approx. 30-40 (little more than half) free swimming fry in the tank. I added a very seasoned sponge filter and some freshly hatched brine shrimp. I do not see them eating yet and assume I should try to clean the tank bottom after a few hours to remove any dead brine shrimp and debris from the old eggs, correct? Was planning on using airline tubing to suction the bottom unless you guys can suggest anything better. Even though the tubing is small, I am kind of afraid to suck up the fry . Are you doing large 70-80% Water changes daily or less but twice a day?

 

Airline /rigid tube the same size or turkey basters are the choice tools .
Change as much as you think you need .If you are not overfeeding then more then a normal tank but not crazy. If there is lots of debris larger changes .
I found using an airstone as a 'strainer / fry filter guard' allowed me to leave the hose in the tank without sucking up fry and having to hold and watch it the whole time ..
Congrats on the free swimmers !

 

Yep, the turkey baster is a "Great" tool.
Congrats and Good Luck!

 

Thanks. I still cannot see them feeding and it seems some of the first free swimming ones died. I used coralbandits suggestion of using an airstone as strainer to change water. Awesome idea, worked great! I just hope they start eating at some point. I realized I put way to many brine shrimp in this morning, but will remove dead ones immediately.

 

If you don't see them eat anything try grinding up flake till it like dust /flour . bizaliz3 was having issue with rams not eating live BBS and got them to eat flake for first couple days till they could eat the BBS. Others may use vinegar eels or micro worms but I have never needed anything but BBS.

 

Yes. After many fails for me, the key ended up being dry food. But they only needed it for 3 meals over the course of less than 24 hours and they were able to eat the BBS. That was it! I was so blown away by that. Especially since so many breeders have had no trouble feeding BBS from day one. I didn't believe it was the size of the BBS causing the issue. Which is why it took me so long to try dry food. My angelfish fry will not touch dry food. So I just assumed the same would be true for the rams.

I also tried micro worms before switching to the dry food. That didn't work either. Never tried vinegar eels.

What I did was grind up some fry food until it was powder and placed it right in front of their faces and they ate it. I did a very very tiny amount to avoid fouling the water. Like...the tip of a toothpick sized serving.

 

I have 100-200 micron golden pearls and will try those. (was wanting to add them later after they grew a little originally) I will continue to add some brine shrimp as well and see how it goes.

 

I have 100-200 micron golden pearls and will try those. (was wanting to add them later after they grew a little originally) I will continue to add some brine shrimp as well and see how it goes.

I don't know how small that size is...but if it isn't pure powder, it may be too big. So you should crush it up even more if it isn't. At least at the beginning.

 

The 100-200 may be big . I always rub/grind GP between my fingers when feeding small fry so maybe that grinds it up a little . The GP are not as hard as pellet food which is good .
I would try a small amount .

 

I tried to grind up some of the GP yesterday and saw a few of the fry take some. As of this morning (even though I did not actually see them swallowing it ) most of the fry have orange bellies. I started doing approx. 30% Water changes and try to clean of debris at least twice a day (still a lot of debris from hatching floating around which over night the fry gather around) and I am having trouble removing without sucking up fry. Definitely the furthest I have made it, thanks to you guys!

 

You are not alone sucking fry even with air line ! Funny is rams are dumb when young ? Apistos on the other hand [another South American dwarf cichlid] have fry that are smart from day one ! They run from the airline while rams seem to almost want to check it out just a little closer !
Next tip ; clean white bucket for vacuuming fry tank and turkey baster to catch the fry and add them back to tank . It happens ! A flashlight is also the breeders secret weapon ..They can be hard to see !
They definitely look like they have eaten which is great . Even I usually have more over feed then in your pic so you are doing good .It is hard to get them enough and not over feed ..
Looks like you are doing great !

 

Tips noted and on the list to do for tonight's cleaning! Thanks.

 

Looks like I got most of it out without sucking up fry this go around. Most fish are eating brine shrimps now. Based on your recommendation (coralbandit) I started using Kens #3 as soon as I got your fish in the 55Gal. Do you grind it up and start introducing it to your fry after 6-8 weeks in addition to Brine Shrimp as well or do you use GP as step in between? Plan is to set up a 40 Breeder as grow tank and get them in after 6 weeks (I believe $ per Gal. sale is coming up in June).

 

I start fry with Golden pearls 100-200 micron within 1-2 weeks .I offer all prepared foods before BBS and keep feeding BBS until 8weeks at least and often much longer just cause I hatch 3 batches a day !
For the kens grow food you could grind it I think . I buy all 4 sizes 0 ,1, 2, 3 so I just feed the size that fits the fish ! 0 is pretty small but the golden pearls are more enticing and a little smaller and softer for the fry .
Golden pearls first ,then the 0 and maybe 300 micron golden pearls ,next #1 and 300-500 GP . Once fry can eat #2 they can eat most any food I offer. The #3 is best for adults it is a little bigger then #2 ..
Again your tank looks nice and clean and the fry look to have nice full bellies !
You're doing great !

 

Thank you Sir, I appreciate it.

 

Hello , fry has been free swimming 7 Days now. Lost a few on the way (a lot of the dead looked very healthy and big compared to some of the tiny once still swimming around alive and well) but majority is still good - Got approx 110-120 left. Had a SNAFU and basically ran out of brine shrimp tonight as the last hatch of brine shrimp did not work out for whatever reason. I started a new batch around Lunch Time today and hope I get a decent hatch by Lunch tomorrow, so have to try Golden Pearls for the morning feeding.
Not sure why, but yesterday Rams laid in the gravel again instead on any of the stones they normally did in the past. (and ate all eggs tonight) The next time they do lay in gravel, I will try to remove eggs with turkey baster.

 

 

The fry look good !
14 days free swimming is the next big milestone .
After it should be easier .
I don't I get more then 100 fry to live even on huge spawns ..
They may also eat frozen BBS if your LFS has them [or rotifers ] ..

 

Unfortunately they do not carry BBS, just the large Spirulina Brine Shrimp. Some of fry ate 100-200 micron GPs , so I hope if they are hungry they all will. At least till 1pm tomorrow which marks 24hrs after I started the next batch BBS , so they will get their usual dose by then. Fingers crossed..... I know everyone is ordering from Brine Shrimp Direct , so I will get me 8oz from them going forward instead of relying on the OSI Packs I have. Just the $14 shipping cost stopped me from ordering there before. I also have to set me up a second cone to avoid the issue with starving everyone in case one of the BBS hatches does not work out.