German Black Ram Breeding

I'm new to breeding German Rams. I have bred discus for over 30 years so I figured I would mess with these a little. I have a collection of really nice Black Rams that are starting to pair off. Two laid last night on a flat rock. I removed the rock and currently have it with Methylene Blue with an aerator to try and hatch the eggs. Was really wanting to see if they were a fertile pair right now. Looking for advice......very skilled with discus.......but a complete novice to German Rams or Black Rams.

 

The blacks are either the best parents or homicidal maniacs IME.
Good for you taking first spawn , I always did also .
Just looking for one good egg!
I would let the pair attempt to do all the work if they can have their own tank .
I used 10 and 5 g tanks for my pairs .
VERY NICE LOOKING BLACK !
Good luck you should have this easy .
They are just like discus but you need to have the fresh BBS ready after 24 hours of free swimming .

 

The blacks are either the best parents or homicidal maniacs IME.
Good for you taking first spawn , I always did also .
Just looking for one good egg!
I would let the pair attempt to do all the work if they can have their own tank .
I used 10 and 5 g tanks for my pairs .
VERY NICE LOOKING BLACK !
Good luck you should have this easy .
They are just like discus but you need to have the fresh BBS ready after 24 hours of free swimming .

I think you should have to take a lot of credit for how good these look. I just recognized your user name and I went back and checked.....I think you were the original owner/breeder of these. I got a group of (8) of these from Liz Streithorst and she told me they were from your line. I had tried and tried to get Black Rams but I didn't like how they looked.......more greyish and not solid black. Then I ran into the ones she was selling and I bought them in a second!!

The blacks are either the best parents or homicidal maniacs IME.
Good for you taking first spawn , I always did also .
Just looking for one good egg!
I would let the pair attempt to do all the work if they can have their own tank .
I used 10 and 5 g tanks for my pairs .
VERY NICE LOOKING BLACK !
Good luck you should have this easy .
They are just like discus but you need to have the fresh BBS ready after 24 hours of free swimming .

Having BBS going is no problem......I usually have (2) containers going like now with me having Leopard Snakeskin fry going.

Another question I have is......breeding black on black Rams.....what's the percentage to look like parents and I'm thinking it will also throw Gold Rams also......correct??

 

I think you should have to take a lot of credit for how good these look. I just recognized your user name and I went back and checked.....I think you were the original owner/breeder of these. I got a group of (8) of these from Liz Streithorst and she told me they were from your line. I had tried and tried to get Black Rams but I didn't like how they looked.......more greyish and not solid black. Then I ran into the ones she was selling and I bought them in a second!!

Having BBS going is no problem......I usually have (2) containers going like now with me having Leopard Snakeskin fry going.

Another question I have is......breeding black on black Rams.....what's the percentage to look like parents and I'm thinking it will also throw Gold Rams also......correct??

Hopefully you should yield better then 50% black .
Liz got some of the best I had .
These guys are like double black angels .
You can't see the gene so no way of telling by just looking .
But they should be consistent with what they throw .

 

Hopefully you should yield better then 50% black .
Liz got some of the best I had .
These guys are like double black angels .
You can't see the gene so no way of telling by just looking .
But they should be consistent with what they throw .

Do the black ones come out looking like the parents.....that dark?? or some them different shades of black??
Double Dark Black Angels is what they reminded of when I first saw them!!

 

They will not look as dark .That comes with age by maybe 4-6 months for most .
The golds will be noticeably different within 1 week and some say separated .
If the eggs are no good look to get your TDS around 100 .

 

They will not look as dark .That comes with age by maybe 4-6 months for most .
The golds will be noticeably different within 1 week and some say separated .
If the eggs are no good look to get your TDS around 100 .

Good deal!!

Attached is a pic of the eggs......been about 24 hours now. Not expecting alot this time.....just in tap water with Methylene Blue. TDS of 100 is what I shoot for on my discus eggs.

 

The blacks I had were able to successfully spawn in my tap which is 350+.
I used mb for the eggs when I went artificial .
Just remove the mb with w/c when the eggs become wigglers .
I made very large water changes with eggs and fry as long as I had control over water going in .
I have prep barrels so it was not a problem .
No pic ..


These are from my stock also I think .
You can expect the young black to look like the juvis in this picture .
You can also see how different the gold fry swimming around the pair are .

 

Did the pic come through now?

 

Those eggs look good !!

 

I'm with you.....I think they look good also at this stage. Sorry for all the questions......I have a heater in the 2 1/2 gallon tank.....is that a must or what temp you try and keep it at. The pair laid in 83 degree water that is in my discus tanks.

 

I like 82-84 so 83 is great .
They like the discus love heat and I kept many at 86 and they spawned .
It is all about the water, just like discus .
I made large waterchanges daily with the fry and close with breeding pairs .
No problem with questions . You are on the one topic I am pretty proficient about .

 

Hey there......I'm very happy to say that I do have about 15 to 20 wigglers in the tank. Most of the eggs turned white on top of the slate rock. I was just about ready to wash the slate rock and put it back in the tank.......when I ended up seeing some wigglers moving around on the bottom of the white tank. At least I know they are a fertile pair. I will put the slate back in the tank in a day or so.......next time I will pull the slate and place in water I use for my discus breeding pairs (around 80 to 100 TDS).

 

The water the eggs are laid in needs to be low TDS.
Hard water keeps the eggs from becoming fertile during spawning is what they say .
It also could be just first timers .
Many rams take several times to get it right .
I have also thought I lost spawns but just left them for another day or so [since they looked all white ] only to find wigglers that did hatch !
Congrats on getting conformation on fertile pair and better luck on next batch ..
Give the pair a chance .You only need to leave fry with parents for 2-3 weeks for them to learn all they need . They do seem to grow a little faster a little easier when with their parents .

 

The water the eggs are laid in needs to be low TDS.
Hard water keeps the eggs from becoming fertile during spawning is what they say .
It also could be just first timers .
Many rams take several times to get it right .
I have also thought I lost spawns but just left them for another day or so [since they looked all white ] only to find wigglers that did hatch !
Congrats on getting conformation on fertile pair and better luck on next batch ..
Give the pair a chance .You only need to leave fry with parents for 2-3 weeks for them to learn all they need . They do seem to grow a little faster a little easier when with their parents .

Thanks for all the good information. I thought I only had 15 to 20 wigglers this morning.........but I got home this evening there was a lot more in there. I'm not sure if they came loose from the slate after hatching and were under it.....or not. Anyways......there has got to be way over 50+ now in the bottom wiggling around!!

 

When artificially hatching stand slate on end so wigglers fall off naturally .
I hatched in Dip and pours .


I used terra cotta pot bottoms instead of slate.

 

When will I start to feed them?? Just did a water change and some are trying to swim....others just moving around on bottom.

 

Feed them BBS when they have been free swimming 1 day .
It could be less then 24 hours but you want them swimming and completing their egg sac first .

 

This morning I fed them just a little bit of Golden Pearl 5-50 Micron Reef and Larvae Diet. Its the same stuff I have fed some of the discus fry that I artificially raised before. Do you think that would work?? I also fed them a little bit of live BBS also. The BBS I used was the ones that went through the micron net as I was also giving those BBS to my LSS discus fry.

 

I use golden pearls 50 micron after they already know to hunt the BBS.
Usually around the end of 1 week .Then I mix the two to trick train them .
Golden pearls are great prepared food .

 

I had no idea I had as many as I do.......at least 70 to 80......if not maybe 100....they are everywhere on the bottom of the tank. I'm noticing that some are clear in color....others are dark. I would say maybe 30% are clear or light yellow.......70% or maybe more are darker in color.
Just did another water change.....they are eating both the Golden Pearl and the BBS!!

 

Calls for celebration !

https://imgur.com/a/6oPlHKM

 

Coralbandit......I saw a video the other day of your fishroom. Saw a lot of your rams.....especially the blue ones......and your other fish. I didn't remember seeing any black rams in the video. Do you still breed those??

 

I have no rams right now !!
I decided to take a breeding break in the spring .
May rearrange and re set up fish room now ,but all I have besides my 180 community is my discus and Ed Parker Jet Black swordtails ..
I plan on doing the blacks again .
I have blacks in my videos ;

 

So do you breed discus also?

 

They do the hard work !
I have no fry of any kind now as I am playing slacker with water changes .
I got all my discus from Hans .
I prefer Germans and have never owned Asians. Maybe part of being die hard ram breeder..

 

Cool.....Hans is a good friend of mine.......probably have known him for 20 to 30 years. You couldn't meet a nicer person in the discus or aquarium community. I use to have all German discus, but now I pretty much have discus from Tony Tan, Winson, and Forrest. I currently have about 70 LSS fry that are about two weeks old and probably 100+ Reflection D fry with my male. I have been breeding discus for over 30 years now!!

I got 8 of those black rams from Liz to add to the 2 I already had.....I think I least have 3 pairs right now.....if not a 4th.
So how long does it take to get the rams to sellable size?

 

Some will be ready and breed at 4 months .
I liked to sell mine between 5-6 months so I knew they were started off right , and were sexable.
They can continue to grow 2 years if not longer .
They grow 'quick' from 5-12 months .Trick is keep treating them like fry with meals and water changes .
Which is really how you discus people do it anyways !

 

Some will be ready and breed at 4 months .
I liked to sell mine between 5-6 months so I knew they were started off right , and were sexable.
They can continue to grow 2 years if not longer .
They grow 'quick' from 5-12 months .Trick is keep treating them like fry with meals and water changes .
Which is really how you discus people do it anyways !

Update on the Black Ram fry.......I have about 50 now.......about 25 black and 25 gold. They are really starting to grow.....I'm feeding mainly Golden Pearl and Royal Menu. They are in between 1/4" and 1/2" right now. What I was wondering is should I raise some of the black fry up to adult instead of selling them. Didn't know if crossing them back with the parents or one another would increase the percentage of blacks in future spawns?

 

Everyone says Marco locked them in .
I would try to find a pair or more and keep trying for all black .
They should be pretty easy to sell .
The golds not so much .

 

Everyone says Marco locked them in .
I would try to find a pair or more and keep trying for all black .
They should be pretty easy to sell .
The golds not so much .

Is that where these Black Rams originated from......Marco??

 

No I got mine from the same source as Marco .
Shahar Danziger of Danziger Discus in Israel.
I found a shop in NJ that gets his imports which is pretty tough I think .
The day I found out and confirmed they were from Shahar I was there !

 

No I got mine from the same source as Marco .
Shahar Danziger of Danziger Discus in Israel.
I found a shop in NJ that gets his imports which is pretty tough I think .
The day I found out and confirmed they were from Shahar I was there !

Ok......the next phase.......growing them out. I got about 30 to 40 after I culled a few. I think I have about 16 to 20 black ones. I have sent a video of them if it comes through. They are really growing fast......just feeding Golden Pearl Reef & Larval Fish Food, decapsulated brine shrimp, and Royal Menu. I know water changes and good food is key just like in growing discus out. As far as tank space......what do you recommend as far as the number of rams to a tank?

Thanks,
Brett

Ok......the next phase.......growing them out. I got about 30 to 40 after I culled a few. I think I have about 16 to 20 black ones. I have sent a video of them if it comes through. They are really growing fast......just feeding Golden Pearl Reef & Larval Fish Food, decapsulated brine shrimp, and Royal Menu. I know water changes and good food is key just like in growing discus out. As far as tank space......what do you recommend as far as the number of rams to a tank?

Thanks,
Brett

What type of a file do you use to get videos to upload in here?

 

Hey Brett ,
I use youtube to load videos here .
Not sure there is an easier way ?
You can crowd rams then discus IMO .
You could use anything 20g or larger for the blacks .
Separate them if you can as the golds will likely over power them .

 

Hey Brett ,
I use youtube to load videos here .
Not sure there is an easier way ?
You can crowd rams then discus IMO .
You could use anything 20g or larger for the blacks .
Separate them if you can as the golds will likely over power them .

I was thinking about putting them in with my discus fry that are similar in size. How many would you say you can fit in a 20 gallon?

 

All the blacks with discus would be fine IMO in 20g.
You can squeeze them all in and bump up on water changes according to feeding volume

 

All the blacks with discus would be fine IMO in 20g.
You can squeeze them all in and bump up on water changes according to feeding volume

I have noticed that the golds are more aggressive than the blacks!!

 

Just had my second pair of blacks lay eggs last night.

 

I think now I have three pairs of Black Rams out of the eight I got. The first pair just hatched out probably 200 fry a few days ago. Question on my ones that are Black fry. They are blacker more on the top half of them and lighter on the bottom. Do they get darker and darker the bigger they get? They seem to be darkening up as they grow....but I was just wondering!!

 

Yea they will not look like a really good Pitch Black till after 4 months .
They definitely darken as they age .
Sounds like you are doing great !